Women should keep silent??? 1Corinth14:34-35

[AngryAtheist8]

He can do what he wants… but a good man chooses to take into account his wife’s thoughts and advice.

Ideally this sort of structure can work just fine. Some people are messed up and abuse the set up but that doesn’t mean the set up itself is bad.

You could argue that both spouses can be equally in control with no trouble but I believe any relationship works best when one person is willing to step back and defer ‘the head of household’ hat to another. This way when the two are NOT in agreeance, there is a system in place that sets in place who makes the final decision without a great deal of argument and strife.

Furthermore, the person who steps back and allows someone else to take control is NOT the weaker person but the stronger one because setting aside one’s own desires is no easy task. Quite frankly I’m not sure men could handle it.

And ideally I could walk across the highway with my eyes closed and not get hit by a car.
Just because an ideal exists doesn’t mean that its a reasonable expectation:shrug:

 

[nickybr38]

And ideally I could walk across the highway with my eyes closed and not get hit by a car.
Just because an ideal exists doesn’t mean that its a reasonable expectation:shrug:

And just because there’s no way it could work for you doesn’t mean it can’t work for others. There are MANY ways a relationship can work but this is the recommended situation for a Christian marriage.

Much is expected of men too, don’t be alarmed thinking that women have to be submissive… that submission is only in place because of what is expected of men. Otherwise it clearly wouldn’t work.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

And just because there’s no way it could work for you doesn’t mean it can’t work for others. There are MANY ways a relationship can work but this is the recommended situation for a Christian marriage.

Much is expected of men too, don’t be alarmed thinking that women have to be submissive… that submission is only in place because of what is expected of men. Otherwise it clearly wouldn’t work.

Work how?
Society has generally functioned with female inferiority taken for granted in the past.
In a very real way that worked for our ancestors.
That doesn’t make it fair:shrug:

 

[in_servitude]

Work how?
Society has generally functioned with female inferiority taken for granted in the past.
In a very real way that worked for our ancestors.
That doesn’t make it fair:shrug:

Work how? In Christ.

Female inferiority? I don’t understand your point. Different roles, yes. Why you judge the role of life giver to be the lower rung, I’m not sure.

Work how?
Ephesians 5:21-31

21 Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. 24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives,** even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her 26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word**, 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 So [also] husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave [his] father and [his] mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

We are given an opportunity to learn to love within our family. It is much easier to love our spouse than some stranger. It is like training wheels for learning to love as in Christ.

This small portion of text places a tremendous burden on men. We are to love our wives as Christ loves his Church. Speaking only for myself, I doubt that I will achieve such a thing, despite making my best effort.

This model does not work when one of the two forming one flesh is not working to achieve this model (in Christ). That is why I think that **nickybr38 **is correct in her assertion that it does not work without men holding up their portion of the arrangement.

 

[PeterGStanley]

I don’t think its appropriate to place that statement in our time period - you have to take into account the time period it was said in and the culture of the people at that time.St Paul would not have said it if he spoke today in our time period.

 

[nickybr38]

I don’t think its appropriate to place that statement in our time period - you have to take into account the time period it was said in and the culture of the people at that time.St Paul would not have said it if he spoke today in our time period.

I think we also have to look at the deeper meaning of the passage. What was at the heart of it? And I think what was at the heart was a need to be respectful in the Temple. Something we all could be reminded of. It’s important not to take these things at face value but to look deeper.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I think we also have to look at the deeper meaning of the passage. What was at the heart of it? And I think what was at the heart was a need to be respectful in the Temple. Something we all could be reminded of.** It’s important not to take these things at face value **but to look deeper.

If you can’t take religious passages and/or statements at face value* what good are they*?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Work how? In Christ.

Female inferiority? I don’t understand your point. Different roles, yes. Why you judge the role of life giver to be the lower rung, I’m not sure.

Work how?
Ephesians 5:21-31

We are given an opportunity to learn to love within our family. It is much easier to love our spouse than some stranger. It is like training wheels for learning to love as in Christ.

This small portion of text places a tremendous burden on men. We are to love our wives as Christ loves his Church. Speaking only for myself, I doubt that I will achieve such a thing, despite making my best effort.

This model does not work when one of the two forming one flesh is not working to achieve this model (in Christ). That is why I think that **nickybr38 **is correct in her assertion that it does not work without men holding up their portion of the arrangement.

Don’t be obtuse.
Even Pope John Paul II admitted that women have traditionally been viewed as lesser (than men).
He said in an official Church document that:
3. I know of course that simply saying thank you is not enough. Unfortunately, we are heirs to a history which has conditioned us to a remarkable extent. In every time and place, this conditioning has been an obstacle to the progress of women. Women’s dignity has often been unacknowledged and their prerogatives misrepresented; they have often been relegated to the margins of society and even reduced to servitude. This has prevented women from truly being themselves and it has resulted in a spiritual impoverishment of humanity.

Link to source:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html

 

[nickybr38]

If you can’t take religious passages and/or statements at face value* what good are they*?

Now you’re just being deliberately antagonistic. Didn’t you read my full comment?

When St. Paul was admonishing women to be quiet the underlying problem was disrespect for the service. Not that women were speaking but that they were speaking while Scripture was being read or while the homily was being spoken or while a letter was being read. That was the underlying problem.

So when you initially read the verse it sounds simply like women aren’t allowed to speak period BUT that wasn’t the problem. The problem was knowing WHEN to speak and not being disruptive of the worship service.

St. Paul was writing a letter to correct bad behaviors so we can’t read it without knowing what those bad behaviors were. This requires some history, some study and some time to properly understand.

 

[nickybr38]

Don’t be obtuse.
Even Pope John Paul II admitted that women have traditionally been viewed as lesser (than men).
He said in an official Church document that:
3. I know of course that simply saying thank you is not enough. Unfortunately, we are heirs to a history which has conditioned us to a remarkable extent. In every time and place, this conditioning has been an obstacle to the progress of women. Women’s dignity has often been unacknowledged and their prerogatives misrepresented; they have often been relegated to the margins of society and even reduced to servitude. This has prevented women from truly being themselves and it has resulted in a spiritual impoverishment of humanity.

Link to source:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html

Yes, women have societally been treated as less but Scripture commands men to be willing to die for their wives. Scripture commands men to treat women as Christ treated His church (which is to be self-sacrificing and loving, firm as well and yes ‘head’ of the house also). If men follow Scripture’s example then the traditional Christian marriage model CAN and DOES work.

 

[triumphguy]

Maybe, instead of focusing on this Scripture, we should remember that it’s good thing that Mary didn’t stay silent.

And Mary said, “Yes.”

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Yes, women have societally been treated as less but Scripture commands men to be willing to die for their wives. Scripture commands men to treat women as Christ treated His church (which is to be self-sacrificing and loving, firm as well and yes ‘head’ of the house also). If men follow Scripture’s example then the traditional Christian marriage model CAN and DOES work.

So what?

Scripture (particularly the Old Testament) told men to die for all sorts of reasons (like eating shellfish).
Moreover what you describe has never been the common practice in Christendom (if it was you would run out of men rather quickly, that or force society to change in a way it never did).

 

[nickybr38]

So what?

Scripture (particularly the Old Testament) told men to die for all sorts of reasons (like eating shellfish).
Moreover what you describe has never been the common practice in Christendom (if it was you would run out of men rather quickly, that or force society to change in a way it never did).

Whether or not it’s common practice it is what Scripture asks for and if people would follow what’s advised of them this setup would work just fine (men as heads of the house) but people are not perfect and we’ve gone way off topic. Perhaps you want to start a new topic to tackle this more in depth with people who are willing to hash it out?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Whether or not it’s common practice it is what Scripture asks for and if people would follow what’s advised of them this setup would work just fine (men as heads of the house) but people are not perfect and we’ve gone way off topic. Perhaps you want to start a new topic to tackle this more in depth with people who are willing to hash it out?

People have said similar things about Communism.
That communism failed in Russia, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. because it wasn’t implemented properly (i.e. communism didnt fail the people, the people failed communism). And in individual cases that was a plausible explanation.
But at certain point, if an ideology or system of government keeps failing to live up to expectations over and over again you must stop blaming the people and reexamine your worldview.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Whether or not it’s common practice it is what Scripture asks for and if people would follow what’s advised of them this setup would work just fine (men as heads of the house) but people are not perfect and we’ve gone way off topic. Perhaps you want to start a new topic to tackle this more in depth with people who are willing to hash it out?

How is discussing women’s traditionally subordinate/secondary position in Christendom off-topic?

 

[in_servitude]

How is discussing women’s traditionally subordinate/secondary position in Christendom off-topic?

My intention was to discuss how we are to take Paul’s words - being some form of direction for us in our lives today.

 

[toosan1967]

I think the best answer to the OP was that of Sonseeahray (Post #47). Brilliant! Don’t know if s/he sorted this out alone or had help. Bravo! Sonseeahray in any case. When the passage is read carefully, your explanation makes perfect sense. May God Bless Us All.

 

[Bernadette173]

I don’t have any links off hand but I remember being taught this was a condemnation due to a cultural problem.

From what I was told women were prone to speaking up during services to ask their husbands (who sat across the room) what the Rabbi meant. Since women were not allowed to sit with men and they were a rooms width apart the women had to shout to be heard. This was such a disruption that Paul had to admonish this behavior.

This is true, the women were not allowed to be in close proximity to the rabbi or their spouses during the reading of the torah, early pentatuech, they were forbidden to disrupt what was being taught to the men, out of concern that the men would not hear and be able to teach their wives what was meant by the passages the rabbi was reading from… And because only men could be rabbis it was only fit that a man pick up or read from the Torah and interpret it together with other rabbis. And that all questions a woman would have be saved for discussion at home.

It would be like you or I going to the church with a funny joke, telling one another that joke, laughing loudly, and being disruptive during the service. Then being yelled at by the priest to stop disrupting the Gospel readings in a mass. [Not that anyone would do this knowingly, just as an example]

God Bless,

 

[Bernadette173]

I’m going to read this to my wife tonight.

I’ll report back tomorrow…

if I’m still alive!

Good one!

 

[bmullins]

So women are at the very bottom of the social/religious hierarchy then (except for children).

Moreover, why would a husband have to listen to his wife (or care about her desires/needs)?
If he’s in charge he can do what he wants.

Because the husband is charged with loving his wife as Christ loved the church. A husband who loves his wife completely, with full self sacrifice ‘submits’ to her out of that love. (Submit yourselves one to another in the love of Christ.)

Husbands and Wives