Women.... stupid?

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

r.gonzales,
Would it help you if I just started a one-on-one debate between the two of us on this hadith?

So you didn’t claim this hadith is abrogated. QED - case proven that Muhammad said women are deficient in intelligence, i.e. stupid.

Either way, it’s 1-0 for the Kafirs.

Next.

 

[r.gonzales]

Rodrigo Bivar:

QED - case proven that Muhammad said women are deficient in intelligence, i.e. stupid.

no, that’s just a deficiency in your logic and understanding.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

r. gonzales,
I read your original answer to this hadith and find your apologetic hilarious.

r.gonzales:

as for this new hadeeth, you really should either learn arabic or find better translations.

Yet another ‘you must learn Arabic’ excuse. Let’s see if your Arabic stands the test.

r.gonzales:

the word used in the hadeeth is the word 'aql. the word 'aql has been defined in arabic-english dictionaries as meaning: sense, reason, understanding, comprehension, discrenment, insight, rationality, mind, intellect, intelligence and sanity. in this hadeeth a more accurate translation would be “reason” or “rationality”, not “mind”.

secondly, a deficiency in something does not mean an abscence of; saying someone is deficient in reasoning and rationality is not the same as saying someone is foolish (which is what the word safeehah used in the first narration you brought means) or stupid.

Nobody is claiming deficiency means absense. This is merely a straw man you constructed.

Deficiency means the lack of something or insufficiency, not merely absence.
wordreference.com/definition/deficiency
wordreference.com:

noun
1 insufficiency, inadequacy, deficiency

lack of an adequate quantity or number; “the inadequacy of unemployment benefits”
Category Tree:
abstraction
╚attribute
╚property
╚magnitude
╚amount
╚insufficiency, inadequacy, deficiency
╚scarcity; scarceness
╚deficit; shortage; shortfall
╚meagerness; meagreness; poorness; scantiness; scantness; exiguity
2 lack, deficiency, want

the state of needing something that is absent or unavailable; “there is a serious lack of insight into the problem”; “water is the critical deficiency in desert regions”; “for want of a nail the shoe was lost”
Category Tree:
state
╚condition; status
╚need; demand
╚lack, deficiency, want
╚stringency; tightness
╚mineral_deficiency
╚dearth; famine; shortage
╚absence

Okay, so we have insufficiency or lack of:
sense = stupid
reason = stupid
understanding = stupid
comprehension = stupid
discernment = stupid
insight = stupid
rationality = stupid
mind = stupid
intellect = stupid
intelligence = stupid
sanity = stupid.

When I say you are sorely lacking in one of all of sense, reason, understanding, comprehension, discrenment, insight, rationality, mind, intellect, intelligence and sanity, I’m saying you’re stupid.

The point is… Muhammad said women are deficient in intelligence as proven this Quranic ayat: “the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man”

You claimed, aql means 'reason" or “rationality”, not “mind”. So deficiency/ insufficiency of reason is not stupid?
Deficiency/insufficiency of rationality is not stupid?
Deficiency/insufficiency of mind is not stupid?

It is clear the hadith and the Quranic verse says that women are lacking in some mental acuity so as to degrade their testimony to only half that of men. What word would you say these women are? Genius?

r.gonzales:

seems to me like you’re just trying to cause more trouble…

Not really. The evidence is clearly on my side and against yours.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

r.gonzales:

no, that’s just a deficiency in your logic and understanding.

Thanks for proving you have nothing worthwhile to say by committing the logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominem abusive.

In addition to your straw man argument which I highlighted in my previous post.

Run along Muslim. Let the next Muslim try his luck.

Cheers,
Mata Moro

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Oh… by the way, the next Muslim who want to discuss women’s deficiency in intelligence with me can also look at this hadith.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, “Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?” The women said, “Yes.” He said, “This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.”

Hmmm… I’m not sure ‘deficiency of a woman’s mind’ is very complementary. It sure is not saying women are intelligent.

 

[manx]

Rodrigo Bivar:

r.gonzales,
Would it help you if I just started a one-on-one debate between the two of us on this hadith?

So you didn’t claim this hadith is abrogated. QED - case proven that Muhammad said women are deficient in intelligence, i.e. stupid.

Either way, it’s 1-0 for the Kafirs.

Next.

Is this a boxing match? I can notice that our Muslim guest is trying his best to explain his point but IF we are going to be too argumentative and sarcastic, (instead of being open and understanding ) then I dont see any point in pursuing this discussion.

 

[r.gonzales]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Nobody is claiming deficiency means absense. This is merely a straw man you constructed.

strawman indeed . the whole premise of this attack initiated by cute is a strawman.

let’s take a look at some of the connotions of these words being used, since it’s common practice for people like you who have hatred and malice towards islam to take the worst possible meanings for things in order to skew and twist things…

firstly the word stupid, which carries a definite negative connotation to it, which is obviously not conveyed in many of the dictionary definitions of the word. stupidity is commonly used to describe a lack - or absence - of intelligence. the word “lack” is defined as:

dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lack
lack ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lk)
n.
Deficiency or absence: Lack of funding brought the project to a halt.
A particular deficiency or absence: Owing to a lack of supporters, the reforms did not succeed.

the word deficient although it can mean “lacking” can also be used in a relative manner: “of a quantity not able to fulfill a need or requirement;” or “Inadequate in amount or degree; insufficient: a deficient education” (dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deficient). deficiency doesn’t necessarily mean absence of, whereas the word “stupid” carries such connotation.
Rodrigo Bivar:

The point is… Muhammad said women are deficient in intelligence as proven this Quranic ayat: “the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man”

You claimed, aql means 'reason" or “rationality”, not “mind”. So deficiency/ insufficiency of reason is not stupid?
Deficiency/insufficiency of rationality is not stupid?
Deficiency/insufficiency of mind is not stupid?

simply put, no. a deficiency in rationality or reason does not make someone stupid. especially with respect to what is meant by this hadeeth and the wisdom behind Allah legislating that the witness of two women be equal to the witness of one man (thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=41).

 

[cute2904]

r.gonzales:

strawman indeed . the whole premise of this attack initiated by cute is a strawman.

Instead of calling people strawman, I didn’t see any good argument you presented for Rodrigo(pbuh).

let’s take a look at some of the connotions of these words being used, since it’s common practice for people like you who have hatred and malice towards islam to take the worst possible meanings for things in order to skew and twist things…

I hate Islam because the doctrines are so bad. Can’t you realize that? Hundred of people presented ridiculous hadiths out there and you keep on finding excuses for each hadith in order to get into human logic.

firstly the word stupid, which carries a definite negative connotation to it, which is obviously not conveyed in many of the dictionary definitions of the word. stupidity is commonly used to describe a lack - or absence - of intelligence. the word “lack” is defined as:

the word deficient although it can mean “lacking” can also be used in a relative manner: “of a quantity not able to fulfill a need or requirement;” or “Inadequate in amount or degree; insufficient: a deficient education” (dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deficient). deficiency doesn’t necessarily mean absence of, whereas the word “stupid” carries such connotation.

So what? if you said it is not stupid then what it is? Still a woman’s testimony is equal to half man’s testimony. Is that fair? You forbid women to pray when she is in her menses. Why?.. what menses got to do with pray? Is it dirty?

simply put, no. a deficiency in rationality or reason does not make someone stupid. especially with respect to what is meant by this hadeeth and the wisdom behind Allah legislating that the witness of two women be equal to the witness of one man thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=41).

Thanks for the link. Nothing worth in it but a lollipop for Muslims to find excuses of this hadith. I just still don’t understand God’s wisdom in Two Women’s Testimony Equal to One Man’s Testimony.

I forgot you already put me in your ignore list … so no need to bother to reply

 

[manx]

Just a thought…if women are considered “stupid” in Islam, then why is Aisha ( the wife of the Prophet) considered one of the great scholars in Islam?

I also noticed during my travel in the ME that there are many Muslim women occupying high positions in the private and public sector.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

I cant believe this thread is still going.

Anyhow, im just gonna post some words by one of the great Muslim scholars, Shaikh Abdul Aziz Ibn Baaz, and his explanation to the hadeeths regarding women being deficient in intellect.

---

Belittling Women with the Hadeeth, “Women are Deficient in Intellect and Deen.”

By Shaykh Al ‘Allaamah ‘Abdul ‘Azeez ibn Baaz (ÑÍãå Çááå)

Question: We often hear the noble Hadeeth "Women are deficient in their intelligence and in their Deen” and some men use this Hadeeth as a form of belittlement towards the women. We desire from you O noble shaykh, clarification of the meaning of this Hadeeth?

**Answer: ** The meaning of the Hadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah (s.a.w.):

“I have never seen anyone with a deficiency of ‘Aql (intellect) and Deen (religion) who are more overpowering to men than one of you [women].”

So it was said: “O Messenger of Allaah, what is the deficiency in her intelligence?”

He said: “Isn’t the witness of two women equal to that of one man?”

So it was said: “What is the deficiency in her Deen?”

So he said: “Isn’t it the case that if she is menstruating she doesn’t pray or fast?”

So the Messenger (s.a.w) clarified that the deficiency of her intellect was from the angle of her **weak memory ** and that her testimony is strengthened with the testimony of another woman. This is because of the preciseness of the witness (in Islaam) and because she could forget and make an addition or deletion to the testimony. Just as Allaah says:

{And bring forth two witnesses from your own men. If there are not two men (available) then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs then the other can remind her…} [2282]

continued…

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

As for deficiency in her Deen, then it is because during her state of menstruation and post-partum bleeding, she abandons the Salaat and fasting, and she doesn’t make up the salaat. This is from the deficiency in her Deen. But this deficiency is not blameworthy upon her. Rather it is a deficiency, which happens as a result of that which Allaah had decreed for her and this was done in a manner of leniency and easiness towards her. For if she were to fast in a state of menstruation or in a state of postpartum bleeding it would harm her. So from the Mercy of Allaah (towards women) He has legislated for her to abandon the fast at the time when she is menstruating or in a state of Nifaas, and to make up the fast afterwards. As for the salaat, then without a doubt, the state of menstruation prevents her from purification. So from the mercy of Allaah, He legislated for her to abandon her prayer and likewise in the state of Nifaas. He also legislated for her not to make it up, because in making up the (Salaat) is difficulty, because the Salaat is tremendous, and repetitious, five times throughout the night and day, and the days of menstruation can be plentiful, sometimes seven or eight days or more than that. And the Nifaas could reach 40 days. So from the mercy of Allaah upon her and from His Ihsaan (doing good) towards her is that He removed the Salaat from her whether it be the initial Salaat or the make-up. And this does not necessitate that her intelligence is deficient in everything! Nor that her Deen is deficient in everything! But indeed the Messenger (saw) clarified that the deficiency in her intelligence is from that which happens to her from the lack of precision in her memory and testimony, and that the deficiency in her Deen is from the fact that she leaves off the prayer and fasting at the time of her menses or in the state of Nifaas. **Also this doesn’t necessitate that she is less than a man in everything! or the fact that the man is better in everything! ** Yes, generally the male gender is better than the gender of the females generally for many reasons. Just as Allah the High and Sublime says:

{Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend their wealth (to support them)…} [434]

**But she can surpass him, sometimes, in many things. And by Allaah how many women surpass many men in their intelligence, Deen and precision! **But verily that which is narrated on the Messenger (s.a.w) is that the women are surpassed by men, generally, in intelligence and in the religion only. There can proceed from her many righteous actions, in which, she can surpass the men and in her Taqwah of Allaah, Azza Wa Jall, and in her station in the hereafter. There could be some affairs that she places great importance on and is precise in them more so than the precision of a man. There are many issues, which she carefully considers, and is diligent in memorizing and precise in. She would become the foundation in Islaamic history and point of reference in many affairs and this is clear to those who ponder and reflect on the state of the women during the time of the Prophet (s.a.w) and after that. With this it should be understood that this deficiency should not prevent her from being treated equally in her narrations and in her testimony, if it is strengthened with the testimony of another woman. And it doesn’t necessarily mean that it (this deficiency) should prevent her from having Taqwah of Allaah and the fact that she could be from the most virtuous slaves of Allah if she is upright in her Deen, even if the fasting and Salaat is not obligatory upon her at the time of menstruation and Nifaas rather this is a deficiency which is specific to the intellect and Deen just as the Messenger (s.a.w) clarified. **It is not appropriate that a believer should accuse her of being deficient in everything and weak in every area of her Deen, and its clarification is pertinent and important so that the speech of the Messenger is understood in it’s proper context and in the best possible manner and Allaah knows best. **
.

Majmoo’ Fatawaa Wa Maqalaat Mutanawi’ah. Vol. 3/292

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

cute2904, giving Rasheed Gonzales the nickname ‘gonzie’ is highly inappropriate and disrespectful.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Even calling women deficient in memory is insulting to women and therefore, misogynistic.

---

Aisha was a narrator of tales. Anybody can tell stories OF THEIR OWN LIVES and that of her relatives… That was all she did for most of her life - tell stories for anyone who would listen.

Only Islamists claim Aisha was a great scholar - tell me, what scholarship did she do? She only told hadiths of her life and the life of Muhammad. How difficult was that?

Use your brains, Muslims, think before you speak.

Ciao
Mata Moro

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

r.gonzales:

strawman indeed . the whole premise of this attack initiated by cute is a strawman.

Hmmm. Let me give you some advice, gonzales, you don’t understand formal logic don’t make such statements.

What strawman did I create?

r.gonzales:

let’s take a look at some of the connotions of these words being used, since it’s common practice for people like you who have hatred and malice towards islam to take the worst possible meanings for things in order to skew and twist things…

firstly the word stupid, which carries a definite negative connotation to it, which is obviously not conveyed in many of the dictionary definitions of the word. stupidity is commonly used to describe a lack - or absence - of intelligence. the word “lack” is defined as:

the word deficient although it can mean “lacking” can also be used in a relative manner: “of a quantity not able to fulfill a need or requirement;” or “Inadequate in amount or degree; insufficient: a deficient education” (dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deficient). deficiency doesn’t necessarily mean absence of, whereas the word “stupid” carries such connotation.

Heck, deficiency of mind / intelligence is not stupid?

Nobody here is saying the hadith about women being deficient in intelligence means women are TOTALLY ABSENT in intelligence.

You’re merely playing word games. If there are two or more definitions to a word, you just choose the word you like but ignore the ones you don’t.

Let see:
stupid = lack in intelligence.

Deficient = 1)lack of or 2)inadequate or insufficient.

But heck, let’s ignore 1) and just home in on 2). Yeah, you can fool the gullible but you can’t fool me.

r.gonzales:

simply put, no. a deficiency in rationality or reason does not make someone stupid. especially with respect to what is meant by this hadeeth and the wisdom behind Allah legislating that the witness of two women be equal to the witness of one man (thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=41).

Deficiency in rationality or reason is not stupid? It is still a perjorative, isn’t it?

When you have something substantive to say, rather than worrying about whether or not ‘deficient in intelligence’ is or is not stupid, please make room for the next Muslim. I don’t have the time to argue the kind of nonsense that you write.

In fact, your whole argument is patently a giant straw man.

Ciao,
Mata Moro

 

[r.gonzales]

TEXT DELETED…

just for clarity’s sake:

the whole premise of this attack initiated by cute is a strawman

Rodrigo Bivar:

You’re merely playing word games. If there are two or more definitions to a word, you just choose the word you like but ignore the ones you don’t.

glad you realise the errors of your ways.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

r.gonzale:

glad you realise the errors of your ways.

“Deficient in intelligence = stupid” is an error?

TEXT DELETED Let me clarify for all readers:

Deficiency = lack or insufficiency or absence.

Stupidity = lack of intelligence.

Ergo, Stupidity = deficiency of intelligence.

However, r.gonzalez can only suggest that since deficiency is not absence, deficiency of intelligence is not stupidity.

Is that a straw man or what?

Cheers,
Cid.

 

[r.gonzales]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Only a loser in debates would resort to playing word games.

many of those who would read your posts would say this is just what you’re doing… which btw was the intent of my sarcastic comment about you realising the error of your ways.

there’s a piece of arabic poetry that translates roughly to, “she accused me of her own inequities and slowly slipped away.”

contemplate…

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

r.gonzales:

many of those who would read your posts would say this is just what you’re doing…

Yeah - ripping your apologetics apart.

r.gonzales:

which btw was the intent of my sarcastic comment about you realising the error of your ways.

there’s a piece of arabic poetry that translates roughly to, “she accused me of her own inequities and slowly slipped away.”

contemplate…

I’m not slipping away and I have no inequities. Muslim women are deficient in intelligence indeed - are you a woman?

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Rodrigo PBUH,

I think Brother Gonzales have some difficulty with some English Words…although I notice his English is better than mine.
Like when he said that:
Equal right doesn’t mean the same right…
And now…
he said deficiency in intelligence is no the same as stupid.
I don’t know what he is up to.

Fox

Does it has something to do with Mohammed PBUH which was illiterate?

 

[manx]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Even calling women deficient in memory is insulting to women and therefore, misogynistic.

---

Aisha was a narrator of tales. Anybody can tell stories OF THEIR OWN LIVES and that of her relatives… That was all she did for most of her life - tell stories for anyone who would listen.

Only Islamists claim Aisha was a great scholar - tell me, what scholarship did she do? She only told hadiths of her life and the life of Muhammad. How difficult was that?

Use your brains, Muslims, think before you speak.

Ciao
Mata Moro

Still, if Muslims consider Aisha “stupid” why will they take her narrations?