Women.... stupid?

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cute2904

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Tabari I : 280
"Allah said : “It is My obligation to make her bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent. Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of the world menstruate and are stupid.”
 
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cute2904:
Tabari I : 280
it’s become so common that it’s almost expected… that those who wish to attack islam and try to find fault in it will always quote from the books that contain numerous weak narrations, including israelite traditions, books such as at-tabaree’s taareekh and ibn ishaaq’s seerah.

i’ve found this narration in at-tabaree’s taareekh and in all honesty, the whole report (as this quote is only a portion of it) sounds a lot like christianity’s take of what occurred in paradise with eve tempting adam to eat from the tree. i wouldn’t be surprised if this narration was one of those israelite traditions that are often quoted in these types of history books. (btw, i’m in the process of verifying that so i’ll post up the results when i do).
 
THE CLASSIFICATION OF HADITH:
According to the reference to a particular authority
According to the links in the isnad (The chain of reporters)
According to the number of reporters in each stage of the isnad
According to the manner in which the hadith is reported
According to the nature of the text and isnad
According to a hidden defect found in the isnad or text of a hadith
According to the reliability and memory of the reporters.
The science of Hadith Classification is not simple. There are many branches. The muslims were the first to establish this science, then it was copied by the rest of the world. If you really interested This link gives an introduction to the Science of Hadith.
cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienceofhadith/atit.html

Let me give you a hint on how sophisticated the science of hadith is. Imagine that every single hadith from the thousands of hadiths will undergo a trial. The witness, evidence, Judges, Jury, etc…and at the end a verdict will be pronounced regarding that hadith. The verdict will be as sahih (sound), hasan (good), da’if (weak) and maudu’ (fabricated, forged). For the accuracy we don’t delete any hadith. But we know which hadith is Sahih (i.e. Sound or sometimes refered to as Strong Hadith) and which hadith is maudu’ (fabricated).

Peace
 
So just where does this particular hadith fall on that classification scale?
 
just as i thought, it’s one of the israelite traditions…

at-tabaree also includes this narration in his tafseer, narration #748. he states:
yoonus bin 'abdil-a’laa narrated to me, he said: ibn wahb narrated to us, he said: ibn zaid said: “the satan tempted eve regarding the tree until he came with her to it. then he beautified her to adam’s eye.” he said: “so adam called her due to a need of his. she said: no, unless you come here. so when he came she said: no, unless you eat from this tree.” he said: so he ate from it and both of their disgraces became evident to them both." he said: “and adam went on the run to the garden. so his Lord called to him: o adam, do you flee to me? he said: no, o Lord, but from you out of shame. He said: o adam, from where did you come? he said: from eve, Lord. so Allah said: so indeed, for her, upon Me is that I cause her to bleed once every month just as she caused this tree to bleed, and that I make her foolish though I had created her mild-tempered, and that I make her be pregnant under duress and give birth under duress, though I had made her be pregnant with ease and give birth with ease.” ibn zaid said: “if it were not for the affliction that struck eve, surely the women of the worldly life would not goad, but be mild-tempered and they would be pregnant with ease and give birth with ease.”
this is clearly not a hadeeth or a statement from any of the companions as ibn zaid is from the 2nd or 3rd generation of muslims. here ibn zaid is relating an israelite tradition, known in islamic terminology as israa’eeliyyaat, meaning: it originates from the stories of the people of the Book (the jews and the christians).

what is related in this narration is not from islamic belief, rather it is from the beliefs of those who believe in what is mentioned in the bible regarding what happened in the garden of eden with adam and eve.
 
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JimG:
So just where does this particular hadith fall on that classification scale?
it’s not even a hadeeth. it’s from what’s called israa’eeliyyaat - israelite traditions. they are narrations that originate from the stories of the people of the Book, the jews and the christians.

at-tabaree includes many of these in his tafseer. ibn katheer does the same, but only when they do not contradict islamic beliefs… and to give you an indication of how this narration is to be regarded: i haven’t found ibn katheer mentioning this narration in either his tafseer or his book, stories of the prophets - and that’s checking the complete arabic versions.
 
Sahih of al-Bukhari (Vol. 7, p.96),
“Muhammad said: ‘I saw Paradise and I stretched my hand to pluck a bunch of grapes, then I saw Hell (fire), and I have never before seen such a horrible sight as that the majority of its dwellers were women.’ The people asked, ‘O Allah’s apostle, what is the reason for that?’ He replied, ‘Because of their ungratefulness.’ It was said, ‘Do they disbelieve in Allah (God)?’ He replied, ‘They are not thankful to their husbands and they are ungrateful for the favors done to them. Even if you do some good to one of them all your life when she sees some harshness from you she will say, “I have never seen any good from you.”’”
Hadith “is the commentary on the Qur’an and its explanation”[2] This is why almost all commentaries rely in the first place on the Hadith to explain the Qur’an. The authentic Hadith is believed to be
“nothing short of revelation, [for the Qur’an says of Mohammad] “he does not speak out of low desires. It is not but inspiration which is inspired (Q. 53:3-4).” The only difference between the Qur’an and the Hadith is that whereas the former was revealed directly through Gabriel with the very letters that are embodied from Allah, the latter was revealed without letters and words.”[3] “Thus, next to the Holy Qur’an, the Hadith is the second source of the Islamic Law of social and personal behaviour, because the commandments of the Holy Prophet are as binding on the believers as the commandments of Allah. ‘Whenever Allah and the Apostle have decided a matter, it is not for a faithful man or woman to follow a course of their own choice (Q. 33:36).’”[4]
The Hadith is to be followed exactly “for that which differs from the Hadith to the extent of a hair shall be given up.”[5]
“A Muslim therefore stands in absolute need of a copy of the Qur’an and a copy of the Hadith for the guidance of his life”[6]
 
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cute2904:
Sahih of al-Bukhari (Vol. 7, p.96)
firstly, what does this hadeeth have to do with your original topic of women being stupid (which by the way was based on a narration originating from the jews and the christians)?

secondly, it is known that the authentic hadeeth are a form of revelation from Allah and a source of legislation for the muslims. what is the point of you quoting what you quoted?
 
Ahhh, finally some truth about Islam…you can’t get “clear guidance” from the Koran by itself. Many Muslim “scholars” freely admit its rambling, disjointed style is confusing and leaves readers completely bewildered. Mohammed forbid his interpretations/explanations (hadith) to be recorded during his lifetime. After he died, the rulers had to do something to try to retain control of the “believers” so they gathered together literally thousands of memories of Mohammed’s sayings, flat-out lies, and tons of rumors and have been trying to sort out which ones might be true ever since. Mohammed, the only one with “divine guidance”, never got to review or approve a single one of them since he’d been dead for many years so they decided they had to interpret the Koran to mean this extraneous stuff is also protected by God. Of course, there is no one authority to settle the disputes that have arisen.

Does abrogation apply to hadith as well? I’ve never figured out why Islam thinks it’s supposed to be the government and impose Islam’s laws on the entire world when Mohammed said things like:

“I am no more than man: when I order you anything with respect to religion, receive it; and when I order you about the affairs of the world, then I am nothing more than man.”
 
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r.gonzales:
firstly, what does this hadeeth have to do with your original topic of women being stupid (which by the way was based on a narration originating from the jews and the christians)?
Verses you claim quoted from your own book.
gonz said ::
at-tabaree also includes this narration in his tafseer, narration #748. he states…
secondly, it is known that the authentic hadeeth are a form of revelation from Allah and a source of legislation for the muslims. what is the point of you quoting what you quoted?
Whats the point?? 😃

Sahih of al-Bukhari (Vol. l, p. 83) and in the Mishkat al-Masabih (p.15) :

"Muhammad said: ‘I have seen that you, in spite of being deficient in mind and religion, rob even a wise man of his senses.’ They said: ‘Allah’s messenger, where lies our deficiency of reason and faith?’ He said: ‘Is not the evidence (testimony) of a woman equal to half the evidence of a man?’ They said: ‘Yes.’ He said: ‘This is because of the deficiency of your minds (mental status). Is it not a fact that when you enter the period of menses, you neither observe prayer nor observe fast?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ Then he said: 'This is the deficiency in your faith."'

If stupidity has nothing to do with the verses I quoted here. What is Deficiency of Mind and Faith of women then according to you?
 
janG, same question as my first question to cute2904… what does your post have anything to do with the original topic?
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janG:
Mohammed forbid his interpretations/explanations (hadith) to be recorded during his lifetime. After he died, the rulers had to do something to try to retain control of the “believers” so they gathered together literally thousands of memories of Mohammed’s sayings, flat-out lies, and tons of rumors and have been trying to sort out which ones might be true ever since. Mohammed, the only one with “divine guidance”, never got to review or approve a single one of them since he’d been dead for many years so they decided they had to interpret the Koran to mean this extraneous stuff is also protected by God. Of course, there is no one authority to settle the disputes that have arisen.
it’s clear you know very little about islamic history, particularly pertaining to the recording and preservation of prophetic hadeeths. perhaps you should read these articles:
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janG:
Does abrogation apply to hadith as well? I’ve never figured out why Islam thinks it’s supposed to be the government and impose Islam’s laws on the entire world when Mohammed said things like:

“I am no more than man: when I order you anything with respect to religion, receive it; and when I order you about the affairs of the world, then I am nothing more than man.”
first, yes. abrogation does appy to hadeeth as well. as for the government comment… there is no such thing as secularism in islam - no separation of “church” and “state”. islam is a complete way of life that covers one’s religious affairs and affairs of personal conduct and mutual interactions. as for the hadeeth, perhaps it would be beneficial for you to do some research on it and find its proper explanation…
 
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cute2904:
Verses you claim quoted from your own book.
what verses from my “own book”? there haven’t been any verses quoted from the Quran here…

and you still haven’t answered my question. what does the hadeeth that mentions most of hell’s people will be women who disbelieve have anything to do with your original topic of women being stupid? posting up another completely separate hadeeth doesn’t answer the question.

as for this new hadeeth, you really should either learn arabic or find better translations. the word used in the hadeeth is the word 'aql. the word 'aql has been defined in arabic-english dictionaries as meaning: sense, reason, understanding, comprehension, discrenment, insight, rationality, mind, intellect, intelligence and sanity. in this hadeeth a more accurate translation would be “reason” or “rationality”, not “mind”.

secondly, a deficiency in something does not mean an abscence of; saying someone is deficient in reasoning and rationality is not the same as saying someone is foolish (which is what the word safeehah used in the first narration you brought means) or stupid.

seems to me like you’re just trying to cause more trouble… :tsktsk:

btw, why don’t you answer the fact that the first narration you brought is an israelite tradition, meaning it originated from the jews and the christians?
 
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r.gonzales:
just as i thought, it’s one of the israelite traditions…

at-tabaree also includes this narration in his tafseer, narration #748. he states:

this is clearly not a hadeeth or a statement from any of the companions as ibn zaid is from the 2nd or 3rd generation of muslims. here ibn zaid is relating an israelite tradition, known in islamic terminology as israa’eeliyyaat, meaning: it originates from the stories of the people of the Book (the jews and the christians).

what is related in this narration is not from islamic belief, rather it is from the beliefs of those who believe in what is mentioned in the bible regarding what happened in the garden of eden with adam and eve.
yoonus bin 'abdil-a’laa narrated to me, he said: ibn wahb narrated to us, he said: ibn zaid said: “the satan tempted eve regarding the tree until he came with her to it. then he beautified her to adam’s eye.” he said: “so adam called her due to a need of his. she said: no, unless you come here. so when he came she said: no, unless you eat from this tree.” he said: so he ate from it and both of their disgraces became evident to them both." he said: “and adam went on the run to the garden. so his Lord called to him: o adam, do you flee to me? he said: no, o Lord, but from you out of shame. He said: o adam, from where did you come? he said: from eve, Lord. so Allah said: so indeed, for her, upon Me is that I cause her to bleed once every month just as she caused this tree to bleed, and that I make her foolish though I had created her mild-tempered, and that I make her be pregnant under duress and give birth under duress, though I had made her be pregnant with ease and give birth with ease.” ibn zaid said: “if it were not for the affliction that struck eve, surely the women of the worldly life would not goad, but be mild-tempered and they would be pregnant with ease and give birth with ease.”
I don’t remember seeing this in the Christian Bible. Which bible do you refer to?
 
Reuben J:
I don’t remember seeing this in the Christian Bible. Which bible do you refer to?
let’s take this israelite tradition reported by at-tabaree in both his tafseer and his taareekh and compare it to what’s mentioned in the book of genesis, shall we? (bible verses taken from biblegateway.com’s new american standard version)

israelite tradition said:
“the satan tempted eve regarding the tree until he came with her to it. then he beautified her to adam’s eye.” he said: “so adam called her due to a need of his. she said: no, unless you come here. so when he came she said: no, unless you eat from this tree.” he said: so he ate from it and both of their disgraces became evident to them both."
genesis:
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” 2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
israelite tradition:
he said: "and adam went on the run to the garden. so his Lord called to him: o adam, do you flee to me? he said: no, o Lord, but from you out of shame. He said: o adam, from where did you come? he said: from eve, Lord.
genesis:
8They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” 10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”
israelite tradition:
so Allah said: so indeed, for her, upon Me is that I cause her to bleed once every month just as she caused this tree to bleed, and that I make her foolish though I had created her mild-tempered, and that I make her be pregnant under duress and give birth under duress, though I had made her be pregnant with ease and give birth with ease." ibn zaid said: “if it were not for the affliction that struck eve, surely the women of the worldly life would not goad, but be mild-tempered and they would be pregnant with ease and give birth with ease.”
genesis:
16To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”
so far, apart from some minor details, it looks rather in line to me… and very different from how this event is described in the Quran and in authentic hadeeths.
 
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cute2904:
Tabari I : 280
"Allah said : “It is My obligation to make her bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent. Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of the world menstruate and are stupid.”
Oh, is that what the “bible” of Muslims say?
 
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r.gonzales:
what verses from my “own book”? there haven’t been any verses quoted from the Quran here…
So you believe in koran only?.. below is yours.
gonzie:
at-tabaree also includes this narration in his tafseer, narration #748. he states: yoonus bin 'abdil-a’laa narrated to me, he said: ibn wahb narrated to us, he said: ibn zaid said: “the satan tempted eve regarding the tree until he came with her to it. then he beautified her to adam’s eye.” he said: “so adam called her due to a need of his. she said: no, unless you come here. so when he came she said: no, unless you eat from this tree.” he said: so he ate from it and both of their disgraces became evident to them both." he said: “and adam went on the run to the garden. so his Lord called to him: o adam, do you flee to me? he said: no, o Lord, but from you out of shame. He said: o adam, from where did you come? he said: from eve, Lord. so Allah said: so indeed, for her, upon Me is that I cause her to bleed once every month just as she caused this tree to bleed, and that I make her foolish though I had created her mild-tempered, and that I make her be pregnant under duress and give birth under duress, though I had made her be pregnant with ease and give birth with ease.” ibn zaid said: “if it were not for the affliction that struck eve, surely the women of the worldly life would not goad, but be mild-tempered and they would be pregnant with ease and give birth with ease.”
I have checked my bible. No saying I make her foolish. You better check your Tabari once again.
and you still haven’t answered my question. what does the hadeeth that mentions most of hell’s people will be women who disbelieve have anything to do with your original topic of women being stupid? posting up another completely separate hadeeth doesn’t answer the question.
The point is, beside you say women are stupid. You also say women are hell’s most residents. Are you trying to deny that Islam has put women at lower level than men?
as for this new hadeeth, you really should either learn arabic or find better translations. the word used in the hadeeth is the word 'aql. the word 'aql has been defined in arabic-english dictionaries as meaning: sense, reason, understanding, comprehension, discrenment, insight, rationality, mind, intellect, intelligence and sanity. in this hadeeth a more accurate translation would be “reason” or “rationality”, not “mind”.
Lets take your word for Reason/Rationality. Whats wrong with Reason then? You mean women’s reason/rationality is weak? men’s reason and rationality are much better than women? then you agree with hadith saying a woman’s evidence equal half to a men’s evidence. FYI:
~ naqisatan 'aqlan wa dinan" (deficient in intelligence and religion) is one of the bywords and axioms of life on the lips of the masses in Arabic countries.~
secondly, a deficiency in something does not mean an abscence of; saying someone is deficient in reasoning and rationality is not the same as saying someone is foolish (which is what the word safeehah used in the first narration you brought means) or stupid.
Oxford Dictionary for Deficiency : **state of not having, or not having enough of, sth that is essential. **My purpose quoting Tabari and Bukhari is not to explain stupid = deficience. But Islam has put women in such poor condition. “And it is for the women to act as they (the husbands) act by them, in all fairness; but the men are a step above them.”[7] (Q. 2:228) Rodwell “Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other.”(Q. 4:34) Dawood.
btw, why don’t you answer the fact that the first narration you brought is an israelite tradition, meaning it originated from the jews and the christians?
Oh yea, I read bible. Genesis 3 : 1-24. I read it many times to find God say I make her foolish(stupid) but cannot find it. Would you mind showing that to me? Thanks in advance.
 
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r.gonzales:
just as i thought, it’s one of the israelite traditions…
What do you mean by “Israelite traditions?” Are you quoting from things that I could find in an Orthodox Jewish bookstore? Or are you quoting from some Islamic text?
 
In what texts did you find these Israelite traditions from? I have never heard of such a thing?
 
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cute2904:
So you believe in koran only?
no, i take my beliefs from the Quran and the authentic hadeeths. you spoke of “verses” and no verses have been quoted here with the expection of your last post, in which you quoted two. perhaps you are ignorant of that fact that hadeeths and other narrations are not considered “verses”. they are considered narrations, and only prophetic hadeeths are considered - along with the Quran - to be holy scripture. other narrations, such as quotes from scholars of islam and especially israelite traditions - such as the first one you quoted to start this thread, are not considered scripture at all, and in cases where they contradict islamic beliefs (as is the case with the narration you quoted from at-tabaree), they are rejected outright.
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cute2904:
The point is, beside you say women are stupid.
i have never said such a thing. and no where in islam’s legislative texts does it say this either. and to accuse me, or islam of saying such is slander and an outright lie based on your corrupt interpretations of what’s been mentioned thus far.
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cute2904:
You also say women are hell’s most residents.
read the other narrations of that authentic hadeeth. they say, “most of the fire’s people are women who disbelieve” - and as is mentioned in fath al-baaree, the explanation of saheeh al-bukhaaree, this refers to those women who disbelieve in Allah as well as those women who are ungrateful to their husbands and the good that is done for them - whether that ungratefulness is out of outright denial or out of hiding the truth. you probably won’t, but perhaps you may benefit from reading this article, women and the inhabitants of hellfire.
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cute2904:
Are you trying to deny that Islam has put women at lower level than men?
you began the thread was trying to show that islam says that Allah made stupid. and you were wrong. if your intent was to show how islam “put women at a lower level than men” then perhaps you should have stated that at the beginning instead of beating around the bush, so to speak.

however, now that you bring it up, yes - as is a known fact of nature, that in general men have a degree over women. generally they are physically stronger than women. generally they think more rationally than women do and are less emotional than them. generally they possess better overall leadership qualities than women, which is why Allah mentions in the Quran, “the men are maintainers over the women due to Allah giving preference to some of them over others, and due to what they spend from their wealth.” (4:34). as for in the eyes of Allah, the two sexes are equals, with the only criteria Allah looking at is one’s piety, just as He mentions in the Quran.
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cute2904:
Lets take your word for Reason/Rationality. Whats wrong with Reason then? You mean women’s reason/rationality is weak? men’s reason and rationality are much better than women?
are you willing to reject the findings of scientific psychological research and say that women’s sense of reason and rationality is generally better than men’s? perhaps you should read this: why two women witnesses?, which is a reply to the accusation against islam that it degrades a woman’s status by making a man’s testimony equal to that of two women’s.
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cute2904:
But Islam has put women in such poor condition.
coming from a religion like christianity, you’re one to speak… women in islam vs. women in the judeo-christian tradition; the myth and the reality.
 
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