Women.... stupid?

[r.gonzales]

JimG:

What do you mean by “Israelite traditions?”

see post #7 above…

 

[Paris_Blues]

So it’s basically calling women stupid?

Now that’s stupid!

 

[JimG]

r.gonzales:

see post #7 above…

I did see post no. 7. It says:

it’s from what’s called israa’eeliyyaat - israelite traditions. they are narrations that originate from the stories of the people of the Book, the jews and the christians.

If these ‘israelite traditions’ are from “people of the book” i.e. Jews and Christians–can they be found in Christian or Jewish source material?

 

[cute2904]

no, i take my beliefs from the Quran and the authentic hadeeths. you spoke of “verses” and no verses have been quoted here with the expection of your last post, in which you quoted two. perhaps you are ignorant of that fact that hadeeths and other narrations are not considered “verses”.

I’m sorry, my typo to say a naration as a verse.

Quoting Islamic website is not good idea . You seems to do tu quoque fallacy. The Tu Quoque is not a valid defense because something is not acceptable because others do it too.

A wrong is a wrong, regardless of whether other people do it too. For example, you can’t excuse murder simply because there are other murderers.

Beside like JimG says: If these ‘israelite traditions’ are from “people of the book” i.e. Jews and Christians–can they be found in Christian or Jewish source material?

 

[Reuben_J]

r.gonzales:

let’s take this israelite tradition reported by at-tabaree in both his tafseer and his taareekh and compare it to what’s mentioned in the book of genesis, shall we? (bible verses taken from biblegateway.com’s new american standard version)

What is Israel tradition? Is it being used in Judaism as holy scripture or something?

r.gonzales:

so far, apart from some minor details, it looks rather in line to me…

I don’t know whether you are honest or not with me. There is big different in inserting something in the holy scripture that’s what not there. I’m sure this applies to the Quran too.

It’s not in line.

 

[r.gonzales]

cute2904:

I’m sorry, my typo to say a naration as a verse.

that wasn’t a typo, you used the word verse because you’re ignorant of islamic scriptures and the classification of various texts. which is also why you quote from at-tabaree’s tafseer and taareekh thinking that they’re books of hadeeth, when they’re not.

cute2904:

Quoting Islamic website is not good idea . You seems to do tu quoque fallacy. The Tu Quoque is not a valid defense because something is not acceptable because others do it too.

quoting from islamic websites is a lot better than quoting from sites like answering-islam or any of the other anti-islamic websites you quote islamic texts from.

as for tu quoque, perhaps you misunderstand my pointing out the fact that your religion degrades women in light of your accusation that islam does so. nothing you’ve quoted thus far from islamic texts, with exception of that israelite tradition (which originated from the people of the book), degrades women.

cute2904:

Beside like JimG says: If these ‘israelite traditions’ are from “people of the book” i.e. Jews and Christians–can they be found in Christian or Jewish source material?

quoting what’s found in the book of genesis and comparing it to that israelite narration from at-tabaree shows that there are strong parallels. as for minor details, then there are sure to be variances.

here’s what ahmad von denffer wrote about the israelite traditions:

This word, meaning ‘of Jewish origin’ refers to explanations derived from non-Muslim sources and especially from the Jewish tradition, but also including other ahl al-kitab in general. Such material was used very little by the sahaba, but more by the tabi’un and even more by later generations. There are many aspects of the Qur’an which can be explained by referring to such sources, when there is common ground between the Qur’an and the other traditions. However, the information taken from such sources must be used with great caution and cannot be considered sound according to the standards of 'ilm al-hadith, unless traced back to the Prophet himself and his Companions. The Prophet has already cautioned Muslims against this source of knowledge:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The people of the scripture (Jews) used to recite the Torah in Hebrew and they used to explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. On that Allah’s apostle said: ‘Do not believe the people of the scripture or disbelieve them, but say: “We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us” (2:136)’.

Similarly Ibn Mas’ud, the well-known Companion, is reported to have said: 'Do not ask the ahl al-kitab about anything (in tafsir), for they cannot guide you and are themselves in error.[31]

Hence one distinguishes three kinds of the so-called isra’iliyat:

Those known to be true because the revelation to the Prophet Muhammad confirms them.
Those known to be false, because the revelation to the Prophet Muhammad rejects them.
Those not known to be true or false, and we do not say they are true or false.

source: qur’anic studies - tafsir: its kinds and principles

ahmad bin taimiyyah writes in his book, muqaddimah fee usool at-tafseer:

at the battle of yarmook (which was the battle against the byzantine romans), 'abdullah [ibn 'amr] found two loads of books from the people of the Book, and in view of the permission given in this hadeeth (i.e., the hadeeth reported in saheeh al-bukhaaree where the prophet gave permission to narrate from the children of israel) he began narrating from them.

souce: an introduction to the principles of tafseer, pg. 56. comments in ]'s and ()'s added by me.

 

[cute2904]

Gonzie:

that wasn’t a typo, you used the word verse because you’re ignorant of islamic scriptures and the classification of various texts. which is also why you quote from at-tabaree’s tafseer and taareekh thinking that they’re books of hadeeth, when they’re not.

Most essential is the content. Once you told me about narration and verse, I noted.

If you still cannot prove us about the narration(or verse or whatever) of ‘Israelites tradition’ as per your claim. I rest my case.

 

[r.gonzales]

cute2904:

Most essential is the content. Once you told me about narration and verse, I noted.

If you still cannot prove us about the narration(or verse or whatever) of ‘Israelites tradition’ as per your claim. I rest my case.

you just keep on exposing just how little you know about islam and the sources of its legislations…

 

[nico1089]

cute2904:

Tabari I : 280
"Allah said : “It is My obligation to make her bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent. Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of the world menstruate and are stupid.”

Hi–This is not from the Qur’an or from any source that is sacred to Islam.–nicolo

 

[cute2904]

r.gonzales:

you just keep on exposing just how little you know about islam and the sources of its legislations…

Dont worry, I will keep on exposing how bad your doctrines are. So stay tuned

 

[nico1089]

Hi-“2 Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they grow much towards ungodliness. … 21 If any man therefore shall cleanse himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified and profitable to the Lord, prepared unto every good work.”–nicolo

 

[DeExupery]

Wait a minute. There are a lot of important and interesting things being stated here.
(1) Gonzales claimed that some of the narrations were influenced by Israel and Christianity. Does that mean you stated that your prophets and his friends were influenced heavily by Judaism and Christianity?
(2) I always thought that Hadits are important for Islam, but I might be wrong due to my little knowledge of Islam. I always think that Hadits are important because of two main reasons:
a) They narrate the life of Mohammed, and this is important because in Quran, Allah stated that Mohammed is a perfect example to emulate.
b) 4 of the 5 pillars of Islam is described in hadits. If moslems only uses Quran, then they cannot be a real moslem. The real moslems are those who did the 5 pillars (except for the pilgrim).
3) The topic is that in Islamic view, women are treated as lower than men. Is that so, Gonzales? Since you know all about women, you may quote the verses about women in Quran, and the narration in hadits.

Fox

P.S. I believe it’s the content that’s important, not how we type. Not all of us are native english speakers.

 

[cute2904]

nico1089:

Hi-“2 Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they grow much towards ungodliness. … 21 If any man therefore shall cleanse himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified and profitable to the Lord, prepared unto every good work.”–nicolo

Very true!!! let me add for you :

19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20 (RSV)

 

[nico1089]

cute2904:

Very true!!! let me add for you :

19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20 (RSV)

Hi Cute2904, Yes, that is true. I am not a Muslim but I do have a copy of the Qur’an and the Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith which is the Hadith which is acceptable for the majority of Muslims (not the fanatics). There are many small groups of fanatics who destroy the accepted teachings or distort them for their own use. It isn’t fair to address all Muslims like the ones that are terrorists. That is like denouncing Christianity like they were all like Jim Jones.–nicolo

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

So much discussion over a report that isnt even from Islam.

Tafsir at-Tabari is a HUGE multi-volume work of Quranic exegesis, perhaps the largest one available today. Scholars of Islam have studied this book to write their own books of Tafsir because its the most comprehensive Tafsir available, thus it is NOT meant for general muslims but rather for scholars and students of knowledge to study indepthly to benefit and critique. And due to its size, it will contain many erroneous opinions and many weak narrations. The Tafsir isnt meant for general Muslims because of this. This is why it is very very wrong for non-muslims to simply pick that book up and flip through it and just quote off it as if everything in it is the Islamic stand and belief.

Just look at the first post of this thread, the poster has no idea what they are quoting, whether its a prophetic saying, a statement of a Companion, or something else, and they havent a clue if its authentic or not:
cute:

If you still cannot prove us about the narration(or verse or whatever) of ‘Israelites tradition’ as per your claim.

The poster didnt even bother to ask what it was or whether it is truely from the teachings of Islam, just quoted it to fulfill their own alterior motives, as clearly hinted by her own words:
cute:

Dont worry, I will keep on exposing how bad your doctrines are. So stay tuned

But thats obviously because the poster isnt here to learn about Islam from a Muslim’s perspective. She Just took some quote from an anti-islamic website, pasted it here, and now feels she has done a good job to discredit Islam:
cute:

Quoting Islamic website is not good idea

cute:

Dont tell me you are afraid of me revealing your real faith here…

Cute, most members on this forum do not go about posting about Islam in this manner, or if they do they atleast ask and seek clarification/understanding from a Muslim about whatever they post. Please, next time if you wish to raise an issue in Islam, do it in an honest way.

 

[cute2904]

nico1089:

Hi Cute2904, Yes, that is true. I am not a Muslim

Ok. But even if you were a muslim that is not a problem for me.

but I do have a copy of the Qur’an and the Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith which is the Hadith which is acceptable for the majority of Muslims (not the fanatics).

Are you saying they are using different books? (hadith ,sira or tareekh, tafseer etc?)

There are many small groups of fanatics who destroy the accepted teachings or distort them for their own use. It isn’t fair to address all Muslims like the ones that are terrorists. That is like denouncing Christianity like they were all like Jim Jones.–nicolo

Most Indonesian (muslims) hate jews. I have no idea why they hate jews. Indo has never been in contact with any jewish group or even have international diplomatical relationship. But they do hate jews simply because all their brothers around the world hate the jews. Saying terrorist are the fanatics one was not totally right. Many independent groups in Indonesia(particularly) do send their youngsters to learn terrorism in the South Philippines, when they finished they are ready to send as jihadis to the conflict areas (poso, ambon, afghanistan etc). These are the people who really follow their faith truely according to their Koran and Hadith.

IF a religion taught only the bad ones then no body would follow it. You need to sharpened your humanity so you may seek the truth. Jesus said that false prophets would come into the world and deceive many. Being deceived by **a false prophet ** does not bring Paradise, it brings hellfire.

God bless you.

 

[r.gonzales]

cute2904:

Dont worry, I will keep on exposing how bad your doctrines are. So stay tuned

you just don’t seem to get it, do you? the very first narration you quoted from at-tabaree isn’t from islamic doctrine, its source is judeao-christian doctrine. so who’s doctrine is bad?!

as for the rest of your what you bring trying to “expose” my religion’s “bad doctrine”, you still haven’t been able to answer what i’ve mentioned. you just continue to take things out of context and put your twisted interpretation on things. and as i mentioned above, behave mischieviously - pretty much like the behavoir that got you suspended in the first place.

 

[r.gonzales]

quote=DeExupery Gonzales claimed that some of the narrations were influenced by Israel and Christianity. Does that mean you stated that your prophets and his friends were influenced heavily by Judaism and Christianity?
[/quote]

no, this is not what was said. what was said was that what are called “israa’eeliyyaat (israelite traditions)” originate from judeo-christian stories, not from islamic beliefs. you find these narrations in books of tafseer (Quranic commentaries) and taareekh (books on history - particuarly pertaining to history prior to islam). as was quoted earlier, “such material was used very little by the sahaba (the prophet’s companions), but more by the tabi’un (the generation after the companions) and even more by later generations.”

quote=DeExupery I always thought that Hadits are important for Islam, but I might be wrong due to my little knowledge of Islam.
[/quote]

hadeeths are important in islam. within its body is contained the second source of islamic legislation. the problem here is that non-muslims who often quote from the books written or compiled by muslim scholars don’t know how to distinuguish between what is a hadeeth and what is not - which has clearly been demonstrated here by some members.

DeExupery:

1. The topic is that in Islamic view, women are treated as lower than men. Is that so, Gonzales? Since you know all about women, you may quote the verses about women in Quran, and the narration in hadits.

perhaps reading some of the articles found here may aid you in understanding how women are viewed in islam: thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/index.php?category=17

DeExupery:

I believe it’s the content that’s important, not how we type. Not all of us are native english speakers.

just to clarify, a typo is an error in typing, not an error in understanding. the mistake i pointed out above was not a typo. it was a mistake stemming from the person’s ignorance regarding islamic texts. in islamic terms, the word “verse” refers to a verse from the Quran, nothing else. the word “narration” refers to reports conveyed by individuals - these can include prophetic hadeeths, statements made by prophet muhammad’s companions or another muslim throughout islamic history as well as what’s called israa’eeliyyaat (israelite traditions) whose origins are judeo-christian stories and narratives.

as for english not be everyone’s native language, english is not first language i learned, but it is the main language i use to communicate. people who are not only ignorant of islamic texts and the classifications and import of the various types but also lack the basic tools to understand the discussion (i.e., the language it’s being “spoken” in) either shouldn’t take part, or take the role of someone seeking to learn instead of someone seeking to attack…

 

[cute2904]

r.gonzales:

behave mischieviously - pretty much like the behavoir that got you suspended in the first place.

I fear more about how dangerous the doctrines are rather than being suspended.

 

[Paris_Blues]

Oh, okay, so I must be stupid! Wow! I’m so glad to be stupid!
I’m soooo stupid I decided to convert to the Truth of Roman Catholicism!

I must not be THAT stupid to know the Truth…