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FatBoy
Guest
Are there women who taught the faith in the Bible and if so, how does on reconcile this with 1 Tim. 2:11–14?
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Todd_Easton
Guest
One woman who comes to mind is Priscilla who with Aquila expounded the way of God more accurately to Apollos. (Acts 18:26) This would appear to be private instruction.
St. Paul’s prohibition against woman teaching seems to concern public instruction, instruction given at the public worship assembly or, in other words, the homily at Mass.
St. Paul’s prohibition against woman teaching seems to concern public instruction, instruction given at the public worship assembly or, in other words, the homily at Mass.
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scottm
Guest
The Apostle Paul said that older women are to teach younger women. (Where was that? Titus, maybe? Somewhere.) And didn’t Timothy learn the faith from his mother and grandmother?
And I’m pretty sure that Paul and all the other Apostles were quite happy to have Mary the mother of Jesus, and the sisters Mary & Martha, talk to people about Jesus.
And I’m pretty sure that Paul and all the other Apostles were quite happy to have Mary the mother of Jesus, and the sisters Mary & Martha, talk to people about Jesus.
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FatBoy
Guest
I will ask my original question. How do you reconcile this with 1 Tim. 2:11–14?The Apostle Paul said that older women are to teach younger women. (Where was that? Titus, maybe? Somewhere.) And didn’t Timothy learn the faith from his mother and grandmother?
And I’m pretty sure that Paul and all the other Apostles were quite happy to have Mary the mother of Jesus, and the sisters Mary & Martha, talk to people about Jesus.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
I believe 1 Tim. 2:11-14 was public teaching. Women were to keep their households and to teach their children.
I love 1 Tim. 2:15 Yet she shall be saved through her child-bearing: if she continue in faith and love and santification with sobriety. This is another reason to be pro life and to bear children
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scottm
Guest
Aye, tricky, ain’t it? See, Adam wasn’t the one deceived. Eve was deceived. Adam was just a bad spiritual leader over Eve. So then, if we put men over women, we’ll be putting poor leaders over the gullible. That sucks. And if we insist that the older ladies teach the younger ladies, we’ll have the gullible teaching the gullilble. That sucks.
There must be something else beneath the surface.
I read 1 Tim together with the related passages in Paul’s other writings, and with an eye toward the culture of the day (very important part), and put that next to Paul’s praise of various women, and put that next to Jesus’ treatment of women. I put them all together and look at them all together.
And I take as my operating assumption that there are no contradictions.
That done, I think Paul was combatting here two local problems in that day: (1) the standard, and expected, behavior of female followers of local pagan dieities was incompatible with an orderly Christian mass; and (2) that society was almost completely a male-dominated world, and Paul could only push the envelope so far.
The religious services for certain pagan dieities popular with women were characterized by loud, boisterous, chaotic, crazy behavior. Paul didn’t want that in his Christian services. Remember his talk to the Corinthians about orderly services, and only one person talking at a time, and not letting people speak in tongues unless there’s an interpreter to interpret the message right then and there. All of this goes together with this message to Timothy. Remember that elsewhere Paul appeals to “natural order” for the rule that women should cover their heads and men should uncover their heads. Well, come on, natural law doesn’t say that. So, either we have a contradiction in the Bible (Paul is erroneously appealing to natural law), or, Paul is talking about the local culture of his day. I’ll go with the local culture of his day. I think certain dress styles signalled that one was a temple prostitute for such-and-such diety, and other dress styles signaled that one was a follower of this other such-and-such diety. Paul didn’t want his women to look like temple prostitutes.
Remember that Paul told wives to submit to their husband, but Jesus personally sent forth women to spread the gospel message to men (the ladies at the empty tomb, and the Samaritan at the water well). Well, which is it? Can women talk or not? Remember also that Paul told husbands to love their wives the same way that Jesus loved the church. Ahhh – therein might be the secret! If men love women the way that Jesus loves women, a lot of problems would go away on their own.
Certain publications from the group “Christians for Biblical Equality” helped me to better understand the culture of Paul’s day. No doubt there are other fine sources for such information.
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scottm
Guest
I found a school paper I wrote on this topic. Here’s an excerpt (I’m quoting now from my paper):
Note the problems that Paul identifies in verses 3:5-7: lack of order, immaturity, poor reputations. In context, these problems, summarized as unruly behavior, is the subject matter addressed in verses 2:11-15 and is immediately recognizable as cultural problems. Given that as a starting point, the clear point of verses 1-9 is that Christians should be agents for a calm, peaceable, law-abiding society. Note that Paul opens with an admonishment to pray for all levels of government “so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life.” He is not calling for Christians to stand out as rabble-rousers. He clarifies (ending at verse 8) that the reason he is wants civic tranquility is for a testimony that would promote the gospel message of salvation. This call is continued into verse 9 with the connecting word “likewise.” Paul says “likewise” – that is, "in the same way"or “for the same purpose” or “continuing in that same line of thought do this also” – women should monitor their wardrobe so as to promote the gospel message. It is hardly clear that Paul’s command for women to be silent (v. 12) is addressed to all women. The Greek text lacks a linguistic article, which means that (in Greek) the woman/women of verses 9-12 are all the same person/people. In verse 1:9 Paul says only the unrighteous need the law, and lays down the law to an unrighteous type of woman. That the unrighteous woman in verse 12 adorns herself in wealthy dress indicates that she is upperclass, which implies that she has an education. Paul says she is unfit to teach, but, that he wants her to learn and study (v. 11, “receive instruction”). The point, then, is restoration. Paul is calling immature, unrighteous women to restoration with God.
The reference to Genesis only underscores this point. The word “authority” in verse 13 could be better translated “influence.” Paul is speaking against ungodly influence, for Eve was deceived, but Adam sinned knowingly. If Eve, who knew and saw and heard and spoke to God face to face, needed more instruction in righteous living, how much more the women of Ephesus! Paul is cautioning Timothy to stop in Ephesus what did not get stopped in Eden: false instruction concerning God’s word that is allowed to pass unchecked, unstopped. A woman must not be instructed in and then influence others in false doctrine as Eve did to Adam, Paul says. Rather, she must submit herself to instruction in true doctrine.
Paul’s argument from Genesis is an argument for male hierarchy only if God ordained a male hierarchy in Eden, but whether God set forth such an arrangement is a conclusion brought to this epistle a priori, not something found in this epistle. Also, the conclusion that Paul is barring from church leadership those whose gender inclines them to tolerate deception and heresy, and that because Eve was weak in this regard so are all women, is logically flawed. It is flawed because under those assumptions it is men, not women, who should be barred from teaching positions. It was Adam, not Eve, who tolerated deception and heresy. Adam was not deceived by the serpent. Adam sinned with a clear mind. He knew what Eve did, he knew why Eve did it, he tolerated her action and heresy, and he even joined with her. That is the behavior that Paul here preaches against – the behavior of Adam. Thus, the admonition for women to be quiet in church is properly seen as a recognition of (a) the cultural practice of loud, boisterous female worship, mentioned above; (b) the danger of false doctrine being spread by talkative but immature Christians; (c) the danger of broken families when only one spouse converts to Christianity (this will be discussed more below); (d) the cultural identification of outspoken female priests who teach men as being immoral; (e) the need for Christians to have a good reputation for being tranquil, amicable, law-abiding citizens; and (f) the power of the gospel to heal and restore the unrighteous to righteousness.
Note the problems that Paul identifies in verses 3:5-7: lack of order, immaturity, poor reputations. In context, these problems, summarized as unruly behavior, is the subject matter addressed in verses 2:11-15 and is immediately recognizable as cultural problems. Given that as a starting point, the clear point of verses 1-9 is that Christians should be agents for a calm, peaceable, law-abiding society. Note that Paul opens with an admonishment to pray for all levels of government “so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life.” He is not calling for Christians to stand out as rabble-rousers. He clarifies (ending at verse 8) that the reason he is wants civic tranquility is for a testimony that would promote the gospel message of salvation. This call is continued into verse 9 with the connecting word “likewise.” Paul says “likewise” – that is, "in the same way"or “for the same purpose” or “continuing in that same line of thought do this also” – women should monitor their wardrobe so as to promote the gospel message. It is hardly clear that Paul’s command for women to be silent (v. 12) is addressed to all women. The Greek text lacks a linguistic article, which means that (in Greek) the woman/women of verses 9-12 are all the same person/people. In verse 1:9 Paul says only the unrighteous need the law, and lays down the law to an unrighteous type of woman. That the unrighteous woman in verse 12 adorns herself in wealthy dress indicates that she is upperclass, which implies that she has an education. Paul says she is unfit to teach, but, that he wants her to learn and study (v. 11, “receive instruction”). The point, then, is restoration. Paul is calling immature, unrighteous women to restoration with God.
The reference to Genesis only underscores this point. The word “authority” in verse 13 could be better translated “influence.” Paul is speaking against ungodly influence, for Eve was deceived, but Adam sinned knowingly. If Eve, who knew and saw and heard and spoke to God face to face, needed more instruction in righteous living, how much more the women of Ephesus! Paul is cautioning Timothy to stop in Ephesus what did not get stopped in Eden: false instruction concerning God’s word that is allowed to pass unchecked, unstopped. A woman must not be instructed in and then influence others in false doctrine as Eve did to Adam, Paul says. Rather, she must submit herself to instruction in true doctrine.
Paul’s argument from Genesis is an argument for male hierarchy only if God ordained a male hierarchy in Eden, but whether God set forth such an arrangement is a conclusion brought to this epistle a priori, not something found in this epistle. Also, the conclusion that Paul is barring from church leadership those whose gender inclines them to tolerate deception and heresy, and that because Eve was weak in this regard so are all women, is logically flawed. It is flawed because under those assumptions it is men, not women, who should be barred from teaching positions. It was Adam, not Eve, who tolerated deception and heresy. Adam was not deceived by the serpent. Adam sinned with a clear mind. He knew what Eve did, he knew why Eve did it, he tolerated her action and heresy, and he even joined with her. That is the behavior that Paul here preaches against – the behavior of Adam. Thus, the admonition for women to be quiet in church is properly seen as a recognition of (a) the cultural practice of loud, boisterous female worship, mentioned above; (b) the danger of false doctrine being spread by talkative but immature Christians; (c) the danger of broken families when only one spouse converts to Christianity (this will be discussed more below); (d) the cultural identification of outspoken female priests who teach men as being immoral; (e) the need for Christians to have a good reputation for being tranquil, amicable, law-abiding citizens; and (f) the power of the gospel to heal and restore the unrighteous to righteousness.
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drafdog
Guest
Paul was writing from his personal perspective as a rabbi within the Jewish tradition which keeps men and women separate in the synagogue. The women pray behind a screen which separates them from the men. The only way for a woman in such a setting to teach would be to leave the women’s enclosure and enter the main body of the synagogue with the men. This would be most unseemly and a clear violation of etiquette. By breaching the standards of polite behavior the Gospel would have another hurdle to overcome in order to find a receptive ear. This is always a thing to be avoided. Paul was always in favor of good order in the churches.
Since these societal norms no longer apply, the idea of a woman teaching scripture is hardly a problem, especially as this usually occurs outside the context of worship in the Catholic Church.
Matthew
Since these societal norms no longer apply, the idea of a woman teaching scripture is hardly a problem, especially as this usually occurs outside the context of worship in the Catholic Church.
Matthew
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