Women wearing a headcovering in church

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Jeepers, maybe we should chit-chat with friends during Mass too, so as not to stand out as one of those “holier than thou” types. Are some actually saying that when God’s law and the respect we owe Him becomes an inconvenience to the mentality of the world, the Church is free to toss it out the window? That we shouldn’t do what *He *requires of us because others don’t like it and will focus on us?

People, people, people…:nope:😦
The Magisterium has the power of binding and loosing, remember, not you. IT determines when something is a matter of God’s law - or even when it is a desirable practice. Not you, not me. And it has said in so many words that veiling is a custom of no normative value. Fine for those who wish to do it, not an issue for those who don’t.
 
Yep! Welcome to one of the HOTTEST topics here on CAF. :cool:

I’ve had these debates with folks here before, you just can’t get some of them to “get it” no matter what you say. There is always an excuse.

~Liza
Yes, there is always an excuse for arguing - contrary to the Church’s teaching - that those who don’t follow your preference as to veiling do so merely because they’re of inferior spiritual strength or willpower or whatever.

By the way - St Paul said we should all be celibate if possible. I’ve been celibate for many many years now, I don’t see how anyone is incapable of celibacy if I’m able to be celibate (I’m not that special!).

Everyone who is married is therefore merely making excuses, has wimped out and just didn’t stick at the celibate thing long enough. They’ve sinfully put human what is easiest for them over and above the love of God.

Liza, and other ladies, why aren’t you obeying God’s command through St Paul and living a celibate life?
 
By the way - St Paul said we should all be celibate if possible. I’ve been celibate for many many years now, I don’t see how anyone is incapable of celibacy if I’m able to be celibate (I’m not that special!).

Everyone who is married is therefore merely making excuses, has wimped out and just didn’t stick at the celibate thing long enough. They’ve sinfully put human what is easiest for them over and above the love of God.

Liza, and other ladies, why aren’t you obeying God’s command through St Paul and living a celibate life?
And guess what? I have seen many a veiled woman sitting next to her husband, instead of across the aisle. Shame! Shame! When are you going to “get it”?
 
Yes, there is always an excuse for arguing - contrary to the Church’s teaching - that those who don’t follow your preference as to veiling do so merely because they’re of inferior spiritual strength or willpower or whatever.

By the way - St Paul said we should all be celibate if possible. I’ve been celibate for many many years now, I don’t see how anyone is incapable of celibacy if I’m able to be celibate (I’m not that special!).

Everyone who is married is therefore merely making excuses, has wimped out and just didn’t stick at the celibate thing long enough. They’ve sinfully put human what is easiest for them over and above the love of God.

Liza, and other ladies, why aren’t you obeying God’s command through St Paul and living a celibate life?
Because St. Paul doesn’t tell everyone to be celibate, for not the least of which reasons being that, logically, if we ALL were celibate, the human race would cease to exist. (Or at least, His church would.) On the contrary, he DOES tell all women to veil, and says that IF THEY DON’T, they defile their head. Pretty poor comparison, if you ask me.
The Church DOES have the power to bind and to loose, so certainly you are not sinning by not veiling, but to say you don’t do it because it is distracting for you is another issue entirely. What if the church brought back the requirement to veil? Would your comfort level change? If so, why?
 
And guess what? I have seen many a veiled woman sitting next to her husband, instead of across the aisle. Shame! Shame! When are you going to “get it”?
Where is that requirement in scripture, exactly?
 
Because St. Paul doesn’t tell everyone to be celibate, for not the least of which reasons being that, logically, if we ALL were celibate, the human race would cease to exist. (Or at least, His church would.) On the contrary, he DOES tell all women to veil, and says that IF THEY DON’T, they defile their head. Pretty poor comparison, if you ask me.
The Church DOES have the power to bind and to loose, so certainly you are not sinning by not veiling, but to say you don’t do it because it is distracting for you is another issue entirely. What if the church brought back the requirement to veil? Would your comfort level change? If so, why?
You’ve never heard of children being born out of wedlock? The human race certainly wouldn’t die out. It’s no reason why we need be married - what if I don’t believe that ANY individual is SO incapable of celibacy - so ‘burning with passion’ - that they should marry.

As for the comfort level changing - I absolutely don’t know, I’m can’t see into the future. If the church brought it back of course I’d do it out of obedience, and would make every effort to do it in the right spirit - whether I’d succeed is another (and unknown) matter.
 
Where is that requirement in scripture, exactly?
What about women cutting their hair? ‘It is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off’ (1 Cor 11:7) - any of you shameless hussies have short (or short-ish) hair? I’ve never known a nun who didn’t - shameless creatures that they are!
 
Where is that requirement in scripture, exactly?
Custom. BTW, St. Paul was writing to a particular people at a particular time in Church history. He also said women should be silent in Church. I recently saw a veiled lady lectoring. Oh, the hypocracy of it all.:eek:
 
Custom. BTW, St. Paul was writing to a particular people at a particular time in Church history. He also said women should be silent in Church. I recently saw a veiled lady lectoring. Oh, the hypocracy of it all.:eek:
It gets worse - ALL of us ladies break the rule about silence, pretty often for most of us - we sing, we respond to the prayers of the priest and so forth. Utterly shameless.
 
I don’t wear a veil to mass. But I have no problem with those who choose to do so. Just because someone is wearing a veil doesn’t make them a better Catholic then me, or more reverent or respectful in their heart to the Lord.

If people are going to start assuming those who don’t wear veils are shameful and disrespectful, then others can easily point at you and say ‘sinner’.

There was a short time after I reverted that I would go to mass and in my head say about some people that they weren’t appearing proper Catholics, they weren’t wearing proper attire, that some appeared spiritually dead, that some were sinful because they were taking contraceptives. But then I realised who was I to judge anyone else at mass? And I realised that during the time I was making assumptions and judgements about others, the whole time the Lord was making judgements about me, and I realised I wasn’t the most perfect Catholic either.

I decided that the part I needed to try and look respectful was my heart and my soul. And boy did God go to work on that with purgations that I thought would kill me. So while there are some who aren’t wearing veils, it doesn’t mean that God isn’t going to work trying to purify their souls. And just because someone wears a veil, doesn’t tell me how purified they are inside. And I also realised that Satan loves to control and one way he does this is getting people to think they have the right to tell others how to worship and getting others to judge each other. So I stopped listening to the bossy boot Catholics on these forums and the one’s who tried to tell me I wasn’t a proper respectful Catholic and decided that the Magisterium is in charge, and unless the Magisterium informs me that they are bringing in compulsory wearing of veils, then I am just going to cooperate with the Lord in purifying my soul; my inner being.

When someone who likes to wear a veil can stand in the mirror and tell me God has made them a purified Saint inside, then get back to me and I might listen to the argument that wearing veils is the proper thing to do.
 
Custom. BTW, St. Paul was writing to a particular people at a particular time in Church history. He also said women should be silent in Church. I recently saw a veiled lady lectoring. Oh, the hypocracy of it all.:eek:
You won’t get argument from me about the hypocrisy there. :rolleyes: I would never lector, and I can’t fathom why a woman who veils would either.

About sitting apart in Church, as it is no where in scripture, and WAS simply a discipline, it doesn’t have the same binding nature as veiling would. I’m not too familiar with the practice, but was it going on from 33 AD until 1960? If not, then it doesn’t hold the same weight anyway. If it does, I still challenge you to find it for me in scripture.

Also, if Paul was speaking to a particular culture at a particular time, why do the footnotes of my NAB for that passage say that they were “dropping the custom” and Paul was calling them back to it? Also, he used pretty strong language for it to have just been a custom. Furthermore, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, did the culture not change from 33 AD to 1960 AD? Then all of a sudden, in the wake of the feminist movement no less, it’s not culturally significant anymore? I could argue it is MORE culturally significant, seeing as the Church is supposed to be COUNTER-cultural, and women (myself included!) would do well to remember the virtue of submission.
 
It gets worse - ALL of us ladies break the rule about silence, pretty often for most of us - we sing, we respond to the prayers of the priest and so forth. Utterly shameless.
If you read his other letters, there were women who DID speak in Church- just not above a man, and not in a man’s role. Singing at Mass was never denied to a woman. How ridiculous.
 
When someone who likes to wear a veil can stand in the mirror and tell me God has made them a purified Saint inside, then get back to me and I might listen to the argument that wearing veils is the proper thing to do.
Look no further than the canonized female saints of the Church, then. It’s not about whether God will purify you or not whether you wear a veil. It’s about what was done in the Church up until the feminist movement of the 1960s. I ask anyone here who says it is no longer “culturally relevant” why we want to be emulating the current feminist culture, exactly?
 
I cover when at Mass or anytime I am in proximity to the Blessed Sacrament. I hope people don’t think I think I am holier than they are when they see me. I cover because God put it in my heart that I should do so.
 
I cover when at Mass or anytime I am in proximity to the Blessed Sacrament. I hope people don’t think I think I am holier than they are when they see me. I cover because God put it in my heart that I should do so.
I agree. I don’t think I’m holier than any other woman (and if I have those moments of pride, may the Lord quickly and painfully remove them from me.) The Lord put it in my heart to veil, so I do. I do react strongly on this topic, though, for several reasons, not the least of which the attitude that I AM somehow thinking I’m better than anybody else. Also, I do get more than a little annoyed when veiling is downgraded as “just a cultural thing,” when it was clearly so much more than that, until women stopped doing it. (Initially disobediently, btw.)
 
Look no further than the canonized female saints of the Church, then. It’s not about whether God will purify you or not whether you wear a veil. It’s about what was done in the Church up until the feminist movement of the 1960s. I ask anyone here who says it is no longer “culturally relevant” why we want to be emulating the current feminist culture, exactly?
We are meant to become like Saints. A veil will not make you a Saint. But a purified soul will. And a purified soul will give you a halo.

To tell me to look no further then canonized Saints? well that is lovely but they are an example of what we are meant to also become, they show us how to also become a Saint.

I am more then happy to contemplate the veil idea. But can you prove to me that is going to make me a Saint ?

Going back to what we had before 1960 and telling me what St Paul also says doesn’t cut it with me, because the bible also told us to become like Light. No point in wearing a veil if you can’t also wear the inner garments of Light. Because when you stand before the Lord one day and take your head covering off, do you not think he is also going to judge you on your inner garments and if you have become like Light?

I am not waiting until purgatory to become more purified. I chucked the veil idea out and exchanged it for effort in trying to fit into the inner garments. When I see more Saints in the congregation I might think about the outer garments more.

We have a Magisterium to tell us what is ok and what isn’t. If the Magisterium brings in compulsory head coverings for women, I am fine with that and if I then choose to go against it, then you can correct me as I am going against Church teachings. But me and others not wearing a veil isn’t going against the Church, and the Church not having compulsory wearing of veils isn’t going against the Lord. Because the Church has been given the power on earth to make veils compulsory or not. Just as the earlier Church didn’t make priestly celibacy compulsory in the Roman Rite but now does.

Look if it is ok with the veil wearers, I’d prefer to sit next to someone who is trying to fit a halo on their head so they might be able to assist me to do the same, then sit next to someone wearing a veil but hasn’t a clue on how to become like Light.

Please do not judge me and I will not judge you. I also have absolutely no problem with woman wearing veils. My concern though with some telling others this is the only right and proper thing to do, is the risk that we will go back to a past where we had a whole lot of woman wearing veils, but no clue on how to purify their souls, or knew they could or should or knew how to do so. A congregation that saw Saints as these extra blessed souls, or as people who no longer can exist.

We are meant to become like Saints. My soul loves the veil idea, but, that is only because she first went through periods of purgation and I got to see my soul. God focused on my inner garments first, because it is my inner garment that is going to have a better chance of getting into Heaven then what I wear on the outside.

People sometimes can not see the other meaning behind why things have changed in the Church. Everything that people complain has changed for the worst, I actually see a more positive reason coming from it. One of those is that many do not like change, and if you don’t like change and can’t get used to change, how do you suppose you are going to be able to go along with the change that God is wanting to bring about in your soul and inner being? because it is a hard road at times this purgation experience. But if you look at the Saints of the past, you will people who have gone through this to become what they were meant to become.

Let the dead Saints teach you to become living Saints. Stop trying to tell others they are more shameful and less reverent and concentrate on making yourself thus inside.

I want people in our Church to become like Light so they can show by example and teach others to do the same. I want those who can become living Saints to set the example that the past Saints have.

If you can show me a congregation of veil wears who have become like Light within themselves, then I assure you I am going to listen.

I will contemplate the veil idea more if the veil wearers can also contemplate walking the path to Saintliness more. And part of that path is letting go of the idea of trying to control others, it is getting used to change, it is letting go of our wishes so that we can thus allow our wish to be only whatever it is that God wishes.
 
We are meant to become like Saints. A veil will not make you a Saint. But a purified soul will. And a purified soul will give you a halo.

To tell me to look no further then canonized Saints? well that is lovely but they are an example of what we are meant to also become, they show us how to also become a Saint.

I am more then happy to contemplate the veil idea. But can you prove to me that is going to make me a Saint ?

Going back to what we had before 1960 and telling me what St Paul also says doesn’t cut it with me, because the bible also told us to become like Light. No point in wearing a veil if you can’t also wear the inner garments of Light. Because when you stand before the Lord one day and take your head covering off, do you not think he is also going to judge you on your inner garments and if you have become like Light?

I am not waiting until purgatory to become more purified. I chucked the veil idea out and exchanged it for effort in trying to fit into the inner garments. When I see more Saints in the congregation I might think about the outer garments more.

We have a Magisterium to tell us what is ok and what isn’t. If the Magisterium brings in compulsory head coverings for women, I am fine with that and if I then choose to go against it, then you can correct me as I am going against Church teachings. But me and others not wearing a veil isn’t going against the Church, and the Church not having compulsory wearing of veils isn’t going against the Lord. Because the Church has been given the power on earth to make veils compulsory or not. Just as the earlier Church didn’t make priestly celibacy compulsory in the Roman Rite but now does.

Look if it is ok with the veil wearers, I’d prefer to sit next to someone who is trying to fit a halo on their head so they might be able to assist me to do the same, then sit next to someone wearing a veil but hasn’t a clue on how to become like Light.

But, if it IS a matter of discipline only, as you claim, then I humbly submit t
Please do not judge me and I will not judge you. I also have absolutely no problem with woman wearing veils. My concern though with some telling others this is the only right and proper thing to do, is the risk that we will go back to a past where we had a whole lot of woman wearing veils, but no clue on how to purify their souls, or knew they could or should or knew how to do so. A congregation that saw Saints as these extra blessed souls, or as people who no longer can exist.

We are meant to become like Saints. My soul loves the veil idea, but, that is only because she first went through periods of purgation and I got to see my soul. God focused on my inner garments first, because it is my inner garment that is going to have a better chance of getting into Heaven then what I wear on the outside.

People sometimes can not see the other meaning behind why things have changed in the Church. Everything that people complain has changed for the worst, I actually see a more positive reason coming from it. One of those is that many do not like change, and if you don’t like change and can’t get used to change, how do you suppose you are going to be able to go along with the change that God is wanting to bring about in your soul and inner being? because it is a hard road at times this purgation experience. But if you look at the Saints of the past, you will people who have gone through this to become what they were meant to become.

Let the dead Saints teach you to become living Saints. Stop trying to tell others they are more shameful and less reverent and concentrate on making yourself thus inside.

I want people in our Church to become like Light so they can show by example and teach others to do the same. I want those who can become living Saints to set the example that the past Saints have.

If you can show me a congregation of veil wears who have become like Light within themselves, then I assure you I am going to listen.

I will contemplate the veil idea more if the veil wearers can also contemplate walking the path to Saintliness more. And part of that path is letting go of the idea of trying to control others, it is getting used to change, it is letting go of our wishes so that we can thus allow our wish to be only whatever it is that God wishes.
I did not judge you or your soul. I am sorry you feel like me trying to encourage people to look at a practice that has a long history in the church a little bit deeper than “it was only a cultural thing” is me judging you. You seemed to be implying that the veil CAN NOT make you holy. I, on the the other, specifically said that not veiling doesn’t mean you can’t be holy. But for you to say, “When I see more saints in the Church then I will think about outer clothing” first of all, IS judgmental, and, second of all, makes it sound as though there is NO spiritual significance to veiling. For women like myself, who DO veil, that is insulting. And THAT is why I am reacting so strongly. There IS a spiritual element to veiling, just like there is a spiritual element to praying the rosary, or blessing yourself with holy water. None of these things are compulsory and binding on us as Catholics, but
they ALL have spiritual signficance. I’m sorry you aren’t willing to see that, and think it is merely “clothing.” I am deeply hurt by that.
 
If you read his other letters, there were women who DID speak in Church- just not above a man, and not in a man’s role. Singing at Mass was never denied to a woman. How ridiculous.
‘A woman must receive instruction SILENTLY … she must be QUIET’ (1 Tim 2:11-12)

Silently means silently - someone who is speaking is not silent.

And no, women did not always sing at Mass, either as part of the congregation (they did not always sing) nor in choirs. newadvent.org/cathen/10001a.htm - especially the last paragraph.
 
‘A woman must receive instruction SILENTLY … she must be QUIET’ (1 Tim 2:11-12)

Silently means silently - someone who is speaking is not silent.

And no, women did not always sing at Mass, either as part of the congregation (they did not always sing) nor in choirs. newadvent.org/cathen/10001a.htm - especially the last paragraph.
“Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered brings shame upon his head. But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved” (1 Cor 11:4-5). The context is the Corinthian church gathered together for worship, so it would seem the women were not completely silent. St. Thomas and other traditional commentators take the women “prophesying” here as their singing. So they were not absolutely silent, but did not teach with authority. They did, however, cover their heads from St. Paul’s day continuously until the liturgical and social revolution of the 1960s.

[Note too, you’ll see just the opposite in the celebration of the traditional Latin Mass; when the priest enters, exits, and preaches he may wear the biretta, but when he prays the liturgical prayers, he removes his head covering.]
 
‘A woman must receive instruction SILENTLY … she must be QUIET’ (1 Tim 2:11-12)

Silently means silently - someone who is speaking is not silent.

And no, women did not always sing at Mass, either as part of the congregation (they did not always sing) nor in choirs. newadvent.org/cathen/10001a.htm - especially the last paragraph.
He is not telling them to worship silently. He is telling them not to teach! Now we could go around and around about this, but I really don’t see the point. I am deeply hurt by the implications of those women against veiling (and yes, that is the impression I am being given by you…) that it was this pointless practice that was only ever cultural (no one addressing why the culture of the 1970s is what we want to emulate, or how the culture managed to stay static from 33 AD to circa 1960 AD). It is insulting to the women who DO veil, for reasons MUCH deeper than “feeling holier than thou” (my goodness I hope women don’t veil for this reason), or “because it was a tradition.” Yes, the church has said women don’t HAVE to veil. It means that they are not in sin if they don’t. That doesn’t mean it is wrong to encourage the practice, since it has many spiritual benefits. You’re not sinning if you don’t pray the rosary either, but does that mean we shouldn’t encourage it?
 
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