Women/Wives

[BlueEyedLady]

First I would like to establish from a poster on here a great example of biological truth. BlueEyedLady is a self proclaimed feminist and jumps in a bit to decry much anything that seems anti modern feminism. However, in reading her posts both on herself in marriage and means of dating, and in what she finds attractive in a man… She is in practice completely not feminist, and seeks out a man in the very masculine form. This is where when theology is applied, God is at work making us who we were meant to be. Her self proclaimed feminism is a mental issue (I don’t mean it to be insulting) but it is a blockade in the brain much like any form of prejudice. It is like using the words “you people” and having it taken out of context…the person who takes the phrase out of context does not get offended out of true malice, but it is a mental issue that they cannot overcome.

Wrong. Feminism refers only to civic and public life. I firmly believe that both genders should receive the same treatment by the government, employers, schools, etc. Yes, there are differences between the genders, but they are general enough and there are enough exceptions that it would be impossible and cruel to enforce those differences. But you’re right, I do love manly men. But like I’m not into enforcing femininity, I don’t believe that men are obligated to meet a certain manliness standard. Again, public vs private life. In public life, they’re free to be who they are. In private life, I’m not obligated to date or be attracted to a man in skinny jeans. But clearly, many women are attracted to that. Preferences.

I don’t believe that women are better suited to the home, or nursing, or any other such nonsense. I don’t believe that men are better suited to law or politics. Maybe there are some generalities here, but again, the exceptions render them useless.

The only place my sex/gender and gender expression is relevant is within my marriage.

 

[LethalMouse]

Wrong. Feminism refers only to civic and public life. I firmly believe that both genders should receive the same treatment by the government, employers, schools, etc. Yes, there are differences between the genders, but they are general enough and there are enough exceptions that it would be impossible and cruel to enforce those differences. But you’re right, I do love manly men. But like I’m not into enforcing femininity, I don’t believe that men are obligated to meet a certain manliness standard. Again, public vs private life. In public life, they’re free to be who they are. In private life, I’m not obligated to date or be attracted to a man in skinny jeans. But clearly, many women are attracted to that. Preferences.

I don’t believe that women are better suited to the home, or nursing, or any other such nonsense. I don’t believe that men are better suited to law or politics. Maybe there are some generalities here, but again, the exceptions render them useless.

The only place my sex/gender and gender expression is relevant is within my marriage.

I argue you do enforce these things. As you said in another post, if the man doesn’tmeet your masculinity standard he will not be with you. Such is a form of enforcement.

2 many of my posts have referenced laws and they all support legall and functional equality.

1. In reality they don’t. When I failed my fitness test in the military once, I would have passed if I was a woman. If we are equal, why do you get a job based on a lower standard than me? Answer is that all group centric activities lead to supremacy same with feminism. You may think feminism involves equality but it doesnt. There are people who join the KKK who truly believe it is about equality. It is not

 

[jmjZelie]

Wrong. Feminism refers only to civic and public life. I firmly believe that both genders should receive the same treatment by the government, employers, schools, etc. Yes, there are differences between the genders, but they are general enough and there are enough exceptions that it would be impossible and cruel to enforce those differences. But you’re right, I do love manly men. But like I’m not into enforcing femininity, I don’t believe that men are obligated to meet a certain manliness standard. Again, public vs private life. In public life, they’re free to be who they are. In private life, I’m not obligated to date or be attracted to a man in skinny jeans. But clearly, many women are attracted to that. Preferences.

I don’t believe that women are better suited to the home, or nursing, or any other such nonsense. I don’t believe that men are better suited to law or politics. Maybe there are some generalities here, but again, the exceptions render them useless.

The only place my sex/gender and gender expression is relevant is within my marriage.

You are literally the first person I have ever seen/heard assert that feminism is only for public or civic life.

 

[Lea101]

First I would like to establish from a poster on here a great example of biological truth. BlueEyedLady is a self proclaimed feminist and jumps in a bit to decry much anything that seems anti modern feminism. However, in reading her posts both on herself in marriage and means of dating, and in what she finds attractive in a man… She is in practice completely not feminist, and seeks out a man in the very masculine form. This is where when theology is applied, God is at work making us who we were meant to be. Her self proclaimed feminism is a mental issue (I don’t mean it to be insulting) but it is a blockade in the brain much like any form of prejudice. It is like using the words “you people” and having it taken out of context…the person who takes the phrase out of context does not get offended out of true malice, but it is a mental issue that they cannot overcome.

So I would like to as best I can present an example from my life in how it should play out.

My ex GF and I had “traditional” roles and both having kids, we spent more time as a family than as dating. We both worked, and she had a job working completely random hours and had two kids with one kid not having the father around to take any load off. I have a sweet mon-fri gig. So we would work around her schedule to squeeze in time. Two examples come to mind to perfectly describe how much of a domineering abusive jerk I was:

1. She gets off work at night and I meet her at her house (standard routine is a kiss/hug. put the kid to bed, she showers and we eat dinner and watch some tv) So she was super tired and had been working all over the place schedule wise, she had hoped that for dinner, instead of her cooking that I could bring something.

Now when I got there before the shower I said how I could not pick anything up because I didn’t have time, and I was looking forward to what she was going to make (she was an awesome cook) and mildly miffed she expressed no interest in cooking and would rather go to bed without eating. I said that would be fine…but I said I was really looking forward to having something delicious. So she agreed to make something for me after her shower. When she got out of her shower and went to the stove to prepare to cook there was the dish she had wanted to try the day before that I had hidden and had ready for her. Here we see the St. Paul version of the situation.

1. She Is in a week of frenzy, schedule and all that. Her house had gotten a bit messy (she was OCD so it was bad) laundry and dishes piled up. We were to meet much like the above, she would get home about 10pm and in our phone conversations we of course discussed the delicious things she was going to cook me. She was not particularly against it this time as we had this more planned out and she had already promised me such a thing. Though she would clearly rather go straight to sleep in a sense lol.

So when she comes home that night, she finds her dishes and laundry are done, her house straightened up, candles and roses abound and the kitchen table set with cloth looking like a 4 star restaurant… and I had cooked two of my specialty dishes she had wanted to try. Oh what a tyrant I was…

This is how St. Paul’s verses are meant to be. they are applied in a religious sense as well, so the what if’s are a bit less applicable to God IMO. But here you have a woman who will do what the man says. And here you have a man who loves the woman. If it doesn’t play out like that, then it isn’t relevant to what is said in the bible or the catechism.

I repeat, if your “what if” does not play out like that, then it is not relevant to the meaning of submit/love in the bible.

Not to sound rude, but if you guys were perfect, why is she your ex? Did something happen to her?

 

[tinamn]

I guess the reason why we don’t see submit as respect could also because respect is quite…mild? I respect you, I respect my friends, etc. But will I let then make decisions that I don’t agree with (which involves me of course)? Probably not. I do wish that’s what St Paul had written though. Would have put many women out of their misery.
We also see people saying that if the husband loves the wife deeply, he wouldn’t make her unhappy. Not necessarily true. I also heard a Catholic speaker said that the whole “only submit if he loves you like Jesus” is false. So what is true?!
The only answer I have heard that seems nice is “To submit is to let him love you. The apostles eventually submitted to Jesus and let him be taken away. They allowed him to do what he needed to do to save them”. A Catholic priest said this. However, he seems to be the only one that says this. The rest seems to be sugarcoating things or acting like men have it worse.

As for the gender stereotypes thing-she believes that those stereotypes that are like “Men are more inclined to do well in math” or “women are usually gentle and quiet” are false. To some extent, I agree. I feel like if a girl were to be given the same opportunities and the same guidance, she would do well in math/STEM related subjects, and women are not encouraged as much to be aggressive. But when it comes to actual differences (besides genitals), I really cannot think of one honestly.

And the sex thing- my friend and I have similar views on sex. Personally, sex will be a huge thing for me. I won’t sleep with a person if I don’t feel like it. I don’t want it to feel like a chore if that makes sense. I know everyone here would say that if a husband cares for his wife, he won’t ask her to sleep with him if she doesn’t want to. Which is common sense, right? So why did the whole marital debt thing even came about? Isn’t it common sense to only sleep with someone if they are 100% willing?

To me, a marital respect is very different than a friendly, or even “societal” respect. Yes, I respect my friends and even people who aren’t my friends, in simple ways like obeying personal boundaries, paying attention while driving, etc. Marital respect includes those things, but also adds to the equation that what you do should take into account the needs and well being of your spouse. There is some element of that in a friendship, as well, but the extent to which is should be taken with your spouse is much more than with a friend, and with a friend much more than what it should be with some random person. Part of it is how well you know the person, but a big part of it is the marital commitment. That concept should be fairly simple to convey, with or without religion.

I hear what you’re saying as far as gender stereotypes. Yes, they definitely exist, though I think we’ve come a long way and we’re getting better as time goes on as well. It’s sad that they still exist to the extent that they do. But in some ways, we’re going so far into eliminating those stereotypes that we’re losing sight of some differences that are important to who we are as people. I feel sad that when someone does embody those stereotypes because they WANT to (say, the stay at home mom, who cooks and cleans and cares for the children and wants to do just that) - that they are ridiculed or said to be hurting the cause for feminism. Not everyone wants that, and that’s just fine. And for those that do want that, it’s fine too! There are often biological reasons behind some of the things that turned into stereotypes, that then turned into inequalities/oppression. Where it’s truly an inequality or oppression, we need to work on it. Where it’s chosen, we should let it be.

The marital debt thing, I still believe, is 100% about respect. Religion or no religion, if you don’t respect the other person enough to take their needs into account (and be able to balance those needs, because it can go both ways), that isn’t healthy. Really, most people with a health relationship (again religious or not) could probably just ignore that teaching because it IS common sense if you’ve got your partner’s best interests in mind (ie, respect).

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You are literally the first person I have ever seen/heard assert that feminism is only for public or civic life.

I’m so against telling people, especially strangers on the internet, how to run their marriages. If someone wants to be a full on equal opportunity feminist within their home and marriage, that’s their problem. I hope they discussed that before marriage. But as long as both partners are on board, who am I to say I know better?

I can question the wisdom of it, I can point to benefits of doing it another way, but I can’t pressure a woman or a couple to rearrange their martial relationship.

I don’t see where modern feminism is concerned with the inner workings of marriage. Maybe college/blogging feminism, but in general I think at least in my lifetime it’s been oriented around the workplace and public accommodations.

But I’m a lawyer (soon). Drawing a distruction between public and private is literally my job.

 

[Lea101]

You are literally the first person I have ever seen/heard assert that feminism is only for public or civic life.

Really? All of the secular feminists I know have the same view as her! (And I’m an 18 year old on tumblr and twitter, so I know a LOT).

Feminists are usually people who want women to have the opportunity to do what they want and be respected.
People look at feminism and think of abortions and promiscuity. All of the feminists I know at the moment are all for SAHM, skirt wearing wives as long as the women are 100% willing and are not forced into it. They just want women to be able to be who they are without judgment.

There are many groups of feminists! Some are highly against porn, some are all for it, etc. There are muslim feminists too. The beliefs are quite diverse. People need to know that

 

[LethalMouse]

Not to sound rude, but if you guys were perfect, why is she your ex? Did something happen to her?

Not rude, fair question:

1. Never said I was perfect. But I was at least 99% perfect in not abusing her submissivenes.
2. She was using me as a temporsry filler. After surprise breaking up with me, she took me back for one night. Kicked me out in the morning. Apparently the guy she lined up to replace me wouldnt be available for another week and she was horny… yeah there is that.

There is another post about her I made somewhere basically going over how we end up like our parents… she is like her mother. Her mom is on marriage 5 and had cheated on every husband.

I ask you if all those 5 husbands were likely deserving of the cheating and leaving or is it possible for a woman to be unscrupulous?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I argue you do enforce these things. As you said in another post, if the man doesn’tmeet your masculinity standard he will not be with you. Such is a form of enforcement.

2 many of my posts have referenced laws and they all support legall and functional equality.

1. In reality they don’t. When I failed my fitness test in the military once, I would have passed if I was a woman. If we are equal, why do you get a job based on a lower standard than me? Answer is that all group centric activities lead to supremacy same with feminism. You may think feminism involves equality but it doesnt. There are people who join the KKK who truly believe it is about equality. It is not

You may have also passed if you were an older man.

That tangent aside, personal attraction is hardly enforcement. If it were, we wouldn’t have an obesity crisis in this country. I also won’t date a man who uses meth, but that doesn’t stop them. Many, many men are not interested in female lawyers, but that didn’t stop me.

And if my preferences do count as enforcement, then why are so many men walking around in skinny jeans and pale pink button downs with perfect hair?!

 

[LethalMouse]

(And I’m an 18 year old on tumblr and twitter, so I know a LOT).

I… I… have no words.

 

[Lea101]

I… I… have no words.

I know a lot of feminists I mean. Sigh.

 

[LethalMouse]

You may have also passed if you were an older man.

That tangent aside, personal attraction is hardly enforcement. If it were, we wouldn’t have an obesity crisis in this country. I also won’t date a man who uses meth, but that doesn’t stop them. Many, many men are not interested in female lawyers, but that didn’t stop me.

And if my preferences do could as enforcement, then why are so many men walking around in skinny jeans and pale pink button downs with perfect hair?!

A LAWYER! Ah now I understand your speaking methods

You would’ve dated me, but I suspect the respect I would have given you would have made me appear too soft after a while and you’d leave me

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Really? All of the secular feminists I know have the same view as her! (And I’m an 18 year old on tumblr and twitter, so I know a LOT).

Feminists are usually people who want women to have the opportunity to do what they want and be respected.
People look at feminism and think of abortions and promiscuity. All of the feminists I know at the moment are all for SAHM, skirt wearing wives as long as the women are 100% willing and are not forced into it. They just want women to be able to be who they are without judgment.

There are many groups of feminists! Some are highly against porn, some are all for it, etc. There are muslim feminists too. The beliefs are quite diverse. People need to know that

My aforementioned traditional gender role family members are all feminists. Particularity my mom and brother. My mom was out there fighting in the 60s and 70s, and my brother always pushed me to go as far as I could in life. But he wants to be the man of his family, and my mom really wanted a man of the house. That’s how they have both set up their lives and how I ended up arranging mine.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

A LAWYER! Ah now I understand your speaking methods

You would’ve dated me, but I suspect the respect I would have given you would have made me appear too soft after a while and you’d leave me

What on earth gave you the idea that my husband doesn’t respect me? I’ve felt a lot of things in the 7 or so years we’ve been together, but I’ve never felt as though I didn’t have his respect. We are without question the best of friends.

 

[LethalMouse]

I know a lot of feminists I mean. Sigh.

Think about my post about group centric activists. Tbe Catholic church has a bad rep in some ways for history. Let’slook at that. When Catholics had groups that gained real power, those groiups were hijacked by the malintent or misguided. Half the atrocities were commited by excommunicsted groups. So not “Catholic” for the true sense. But how did it play out in history? You can dissavow aspects of feminism, or any movement. But it doesnt mean those aspects wont leech themselves to said movement.

 

[LethalMouse]

What on earth gave you the idea that my husband doesn’t respect me? I’ve felt a lot of things in the 7 or so years we’ve been together, but I’ve never felt as though I didn’t have his respect. We are without question the best of friends.

I don’t think he doesn’t. It is just that as hard and masculine as I can be, I soften much with my woman. Some women would be turned off by a guys doing of the dishes (it is a real study). It is psychologicaly complex. We could have ended up happily married, but I was being a bit more goofy since I took your suggestion we could date as a fun comment

Hugs

 

[gardenswithkids]

Let me play the devil’s advocate (in this case, my friend, but sadly now I am questioning everything too) here and ask some questions:…
-Shouldn’t the wife also look out for the wellbeing of the family?
Absolutely, yes! A woman should most definitely look out for the well being of her family. The mission of the couple involves take care of each other and their family. The woman’s “submission” involves acts geared towards fulfilling their greater mission. Remember the word “mission” is within the word “submission.”
-Women also have to answer to Christ, don’t they? I mean God is also their “boss”?? Again, absolutely yes! A husband is not the final authority on right and wrong. For example, if the husband insisted they rob a bank, and his wife participated in the crime, if caught she’d face an earthly judge and potentially jail. Being married isn’t an excuse for crime–or sin.

If a woman does something immoral because her husband wanted, she will one day answer to God for what she did (or did not do, as in the case of sins of omission.) Again, look at the word subMISSION. Mission. Married couples have a mission. When the husband goes way off and forgets what the mission is, his wife should remind him of the mission. Complacency and/or participation with her husband’s sin is *not *the mission.
-Is there something about women that disables them from being directly connected to God, unlike their husbands? ??? Is that a serious question? We’re Catholic. Catholic women can participate with Holy Communion, which is a very direct connection with God. Communion=with union. Yes, of course women can be directly connected with God! Don’t get so caught up with trying to understand this one verse that you forget the rest of what we believe.

• “This is why Eve was tempted first - the devil always seeks to destroy the greatest good” Aren’t you just sugar coating things here? If women were seen as the crown of creation/greatest good, wouldn’t history reflect that?

-“God created woman to be the crown of all creation” Where do you get this idea from? Isn’t that just Mary? (genuine question) In the book of Genesis, the last thing God created was woman. Remember the Bible verse, “The first shall be last and the last shall be first.”? That’s how God works. Mary was His crowning achievement, the greatest of His creation–and she’s a woman. Reflect on that.

-“you’re saving your body for your husband - what a wonderful gift to give him” This applies to men as well, yes? Yes. And as to a question earlier about men and modesty, modesty applies to men too. I had a conversation with my son this morning about male modesty. (What is it about styles today that makes it so easy to show one’s underwear?!?) Saving oneself for marriage and modesty are standards that apply to men as well as to women.

I answered some of your questions in pink above.

Don’t let a friend who isn’t even Catholic tell you how God and the Catholic Church view women. Remember the rest of the teachings!

 

[jmjZelie]

Really? All of the secular feminists I know have the same view as her! (And I’m an 18 year old on tumblr and twitter, so I know a LOT).

Feminists are usually people who want women to have the opportunity to do what they want and be respected.
People look at feminism and think of abortions and promiscuity. All of the feminists I know at the moment are all for SAHM, skirt wearing wives as long as the women are 100% willing and are not forced into it. They just want women to be able to be who they are without judgment.

There are many groups of feminists! Some are highly against porn, some are all for it, etc. There are muslim feminists too. The beliefs are quite diverse. People need to know that

I am a Gen Xer. Let me just say that between Baby Boomers and GenXers, the idea that feminism was only for outside the house was unheard of. The two options that were presented to me in my youth were either totally obedient or totally emancipated. Of course, depending upon who was speaking, the two options were described in either a horrifying or appealing fashion. So those of us who rejected both as nonsense had zero help figuring out how to have a healthy marriage, especially since most Gen Xers (in my experience) came from broken homes where men hated women and women hated men. I count it as a miracle that my husband and I are approaching 20 years and are happier than ever, especially since neither of our families wanted us to get married in the first place.

Disclaimer: I was not raised Catholic, so I have no idea what Catholic culture was like then.

 

[Lea101]

Think about my post about group centric activists. Tbe Catholic church has a bad rep in some ways for history. Let’slook at that. When Catholics had groups that gained real power, those groiups were hijacked by the malintent or misguided. Half the atrocities were commited by excommunicsted groups. So not “Catholic” for the true sense. But how did it play out in history? You can dissavow aspects of feminism, or any movement. But it doesnt mean those aspects wont leech themselves to said movement.

True. People will maybe always associate feminists as the group of women who burned their bras. But I honestly don’t care. When I say that I’m a feminist, I believe that women and men deserve equal opportunities to succeed and deserve the same amount of respect. Anything that disagrees with my faith, I won’t fight for. And I’ll be clear about that.

You used the example of the church. And I see your point but I usually think of it as religion in general. A group of us believe in God, but we have many disagreements about doctrines and all. But we are all religious.

It might not make sense to you, because feminist is seen as a singular movement, which sucks. But my point is that not all of them believe in the same things at the end of the day. Not a lot of people are aware of that. And honestly they should.

 

[Lea101]

I am a Gen Xer. Let me just say that between Baby Boomers and GenXers, the idea that feminism was only for outside the house was unheard of. The two options that were presented to me in my youth were either totally obedient or totally emancipated. Of course, depending upon who was speaking, the two options were described in either a horrifying or appealing fashion. So those of us who rejected both as nonsense had zero help figuring out how to have a healthy marriage, especially since most Gen Xers (in my experience) came from broken homes where men hated women and women hated men. I count it as a miracle that my husband and I are approaching 20 years and are happier than ever, especially since neither of our families wanted us to get married in the first place.

Disclaimer: I was not raised Catholic, so I have no idea what Catholic culture was like then.

Wow, that was a confusing time!