Women's Dress

[edwest2]

I cannot understand for one second, how a full-figured women can wear, in public, a tight pair of pants that don’t go up to their waist. By sheer accident, a woman dressed like that walked in front of me and every other step, she had to pull up one side or the other. Constantly.

And the short skirts. No excuse. Too many beautiful women have been brainwashed to believe that a man won’t give her a second look unless various body parts are partly or mostly exposed (i.e. “bikinis”). And since too many young women are in families where the parent(s) refuse or don’t know how to be parents, these young women then look for any guidance they can find: how their friends dress or how celebrities dress.

We need standards. Real, solid standards.

This change did not happen by itself. Oh no. This is not a fake “generational” thing. These young women look at teen fashion magazines or photos of models and who decides what they wear? Certainly not those who respect modesty.

Peace,
Ed

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Does the Church have any official teachings on how women are to dress?

The early Church seems to have had a univeral teaching re: woman’s dress as found all over in the writings of the Church Fathers:

Apostolic Constitutions: “When you are in the streets, cover your head…When you walk in public, veiling yourself, as becomes a women.”

St. Clement of Alexandria: “Women should for the most part wear shoes. For it is not suitable for the foot to be shown naked.” “Let woman observe this, further: Let her be entirely covered, unless she happens to be at home…for this is the wish of the Word.” “The wearing of gold and the use of softer clothing is not to be entirely prohibited.” “It has also been commanded that the head should be veiled and the face covered.” “By no manner of means are women to be allowed to uncover and exhibit any part of their person.” He goes on to explain that though the body parts like legs, knees & genitals are to be cover, they & their names are not obscene. And he says “Let women be fully clothed.” “And a Christian woman will never fall, if she puts before her eyes modesty and her veil. Nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face. For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her”

Novatian: “The dress of a modest woman should be modest.”

Cyprian: “Self-control and modesty do not consist only in purity of the flesh, but also in seemliness and modesty of dress and adornment.”

Tertullian: “Salvation consists in the exhibition principally of modesty.” “I am referring to the issue of whether virgins should be veiled or not…Indeed, he (St. Paul) says women must be veiled ‘because of the angels’…it behooves our virgins to be veiled from the time that they have passed the turning point of their age. The observance is required by truth. Therefore, no one can impose any condition on it: no space of time, no influence of persons, and no privilege of regions…Throughout Greece, and certain of its barbaric provinces…beneath this (North African) sky this practice is followed (lest anyone ascribe the custom to Greek or barbarian Gentilehood) But I have proposed as models those churches which are founded by apostles or apostolic men.” “Likewise, the Corinthians themselves understood him in this manner. In fact, at this very day, the Corinthians do veil their virgins. What the apostles taught, their disciples approve.” “For some with their turbans and woollen bands, do not veil their heads, but bind them up. They are protected, indeed, in front; however, they are bare where the head properly lies. Others are to a certain extent covered over the region of the brain with linen doilies of small dimensions. Let them know that the whole head constitutes the woman. Its limits and boundaries reach as far as the place where the robe begins. The region of the veil is co-extensive with the space covered by the hair when unbound.”

St. John Chrysostom’s writing on 1 Cor. 11, a link to this entire document can be found by Googling ‘Modestus Headcovering blog’, goes into great detail that Christian women must be “carefully wrapped up on all sides” and must have their heads covered at all times both in & out of Church and not just when praying, but always and further his discourse explains that to reject this is rejecting God and the entire divine order.

As a Christian woman, and seeing in so many Church Fathers consistently describe in such detail & teaching this is from the Apostles & from God, not men, I am very curious, seeing that these modestly & veiling practices are not practiced by most Christians, WHEN & WHY this reportedly Apostolic tradition was changed. I’ve only found that covering fully in public, including the head, ended approximately 100 years ago- very recently in terms of the 2,000 yr religion- and that this co-incited with the “women’s liberation”.

If anyone can point to any specific document written by the Church or Saints that specifically overturn the original tradition re: the covering of women both in public & in church, please do so as I’m very interested. Thank you!

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Does the Church have any official teachings on how women are to dress?

The early Church seems to have had a univeral teaching re: woman’s dress as found all over in the writings of the Church Fathers:

Apostolic Constitutions: “When you are in the streets, cover your head…When you walk in public, veiling yourself, as becomes a women.”

St. Clement of Alexandria: “Women should for the most part wear shoes. For it is not suitable for the foot to be shown naked.” “Let woman observe this, further: Let her be entirely covered, unless she happens to be at home…for this is the wish of the Word.” “The wearing of gold and the use of softer clothing is not to be entirely prohibited.” “It has also been commanded that the head should be veiled and the face covered.” “By no manner of means are women to be allowed to uncover and exhibit any part of their person.” He goes on to explain that though the body parts like legs, knees & genitals are to be cover, they & their names are not obscene. And he says “Let women be fully clothed.” “And a Christian woman will never fall, if she puts before her eyes modesty and her veil. Nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face. For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her”

Novatian: “The dress of a modest woman should be modest.”

Cyprian: “Self-control and modesty do not consist only in purity of the flesh, but also in seemliness and modesty of dress and adornment.”

Tertullian: “Salvation consists in the exhibition principally of modesty.” “I am referring to the issue of whether virgins should be veiled or not…Indeed, he (St. Paul) says women must be veiled ‘because of the angels’…it behooves our virgins to be veiled from the time that they have passed the turning point of their age. The observance is required by truth. Therefore, no one can impose any condition on it: no space of time, no influence of persons, and no privilege of regions…Throughout Greece, and certain of its barbaric provinces…beneath this (North African) sky this practice is followed (lest anyone ascribe the custom to Greek or barbarian Gentilehood) But I have proposed as models those churches which are founded by apostles or apostolic men.” “Likewise, the Corinthians themselves understood him in this manner. In fact, at this very day, the Corinthians do veil their virgins. What the apostles taught, their disciples approve.” “For some with their turbans and woollen bands, do not veil their heads, but bind them up. They are protected, indeed, in front; however, they are bare where the head properly lies. Others are to a certain extent covered over the region of the brain with linen doilies of small dimensions. Let them know that the whole head constitutes the woman. Its limits and boundaries reach as far as the place where the robe begins. The region of the veil is co-extensive with the space covered by the hair when unbound.”

St. John Chrysostom’s writing on 1 Cor. 11, a link to this entire document can be found by Googling ‘Modestus Headcovering blog’, goes into great detail that Christian women must be “carefully wrapped up on all sides” and must have their heads covered at all times both in & out of Church and not just when praying, but always and further his discourse explains that to reject this is rejecting God and the entire divine order. ** modestus.stblogs.com/head-covering-reference/ **

As a Christian woman, and seeing in so many Church Fathers consistently describe in such detail & teaching this is from the Apostles & from God, not men, I am very curious, seeing that these modestly & veiling practices are not practiced by most Christians, WHEN & WHY this reportedly Apostolic tradition was changed. I’ve only found that covering fully in public, including the head, ended approximately 100 years ago- very recently in terms of the 2,000 yr religion- and that this co-incited with the “women’s liberation”.

If anyone can point to any specific document written by the Church or Saints that specifically overturn the original tradition re: the covering of women both in public & in church, please do so as I’m very interested. Thank you!

 

[Kamaduck]

This change did not happen by itself. Oh no. This is not a fake “generational” thing. These young women look at teen fashion magazines or photos of models and who decides what they wear? Certainly not those who respect modesty.

Technically, the girls decide what they wear unless their parents have rules about it.

I really have a hard time believing these “fashion magazines” have some ridiculous amount of influence, but stranger things have happened. I don’t have a very good frame of reference, because most of my friends dress like me (essentially like boys). It still seems to be influenced by peers and media in general more than specific magazines.

I think of Mass as going to God’s house to meet Christ in the Holy Eucharist. I would feel very odd in jeans but I suspect I’m much older than you. I think that’s the reality of a different generation.

Yes, I’m a very young person. I think a lot of girls my age do care about looking nice, but many don’t really care at all. Others are trying to attract the wrong kind of attention.

If I met with Christ and was wearing jeans, I wouldn’t feel embarrassed about how I was dressed. I would probably feel embarrassed, but that wouldn’t be why.

 

[JReducation]

Does the Church have any official teachings on how women are to dress?

No. The Church has never had standard other than modesty. Modesty is influenced by culture. Once upon a time it was immodest to show an ankle. Today, a skirt down to the knees is considered modest.

The Church teaches principles. We apply those principles according to our situation and resources.

Many would say, “Mary.” That’s not exactly true. Mary is certainly the model of modesty. However, the truth is that we have no idea how Mary dressed. We know Palestinian women of the first century dressed. But the Church would never expect women to dress like first-century Palestinian women. The Church would point to Mary’s attitude, not to her wardrobe per se.

I remember seeing a post where someone wrote that covering one’s head was the “Marian” thing to do. I had to do a double take on that one. The fact is that Palestinian women did not cover their heads 24/7. They covered their heads in very specific settings. One of those was traveling. Jews had and still have very strict rules of cleanliness. They lived in a very dry and dusty part of the world.

We imitate the modesty of Mary. Modesty is a virtue, not a set of rules about fashion. What do I mean by this?

Let’s take women from the far East. Pants have always been part of their daily dress. These women did a great deal of farm work. Pants were very practical, inexpensive and modest. Maybe, had Mary been Korean, Japanese, Chinese, she may have worn pants. Pants were unknown in Palestine. Even men didn’t wear pants.

Heck, pants were not common in Europe either. They came into fashion after the MIddle Ages. Why do you folks think that monks and friars wear tunics without pants under them? That’s how the peasants dressed.

I’m remembering the Rule of St. Francis to the Poor Clare nuns. He tells them that the nuns are to wear whatever is modest, comfortable, appropriate for time, culture and climate. He tells them that the abbess decides what the sisters of each house are to wear. However, the abbess must pay attention to the likes and dislikes of the sisters in making her decision. If you visit 10 Poor Clare houses, you may find 10 different versions of the Franciscan habit, some are long, some are short. Some cover their hair, some show some hair and others wear no veil at all. The original Poor Clares only wore a veil after the profession of vows.

The word the repeats itself in every spiritual writing in Church history is modesty. The Church leaves it up to the individual to define modesty according to his culture, climate, needs and resources.

 

[catholicmamajoy]

No. The Church has never had standard other than modesty. Modesty is influenced by culture. Once upon a time it was immodest to show an ankle. Today, a skirt down to the knees is considered modest.

The Church teaches principles. We apply those principles according to our situation and resources.

Many would say, “Mary.” That’s not exactly true. Mary is certainly the model of modesty. However, the truth is that we have no idea how Mary dressed. We know Palestinian women of the first century dressed. But the Church would never expect women to dress like first-century Palestinian women. The Church would point to Mary’s attitude, not to her wardrobe per se.

I remember seeing a post where someone wrote that covering one’s head was the “Marian” thing to do. I had to do a double take on that one. The fact is that Palestinian women did not cover their heads 24/7. They covered their heads in very specific settings. One of those was traveling. Jews had and still have very strict rules of cleanliness. They lived in a very dry and dusty part of the world.

We imitate the modesty of Mary. Modesty is a virtue, not a set of rules about fashion. What do I mean by this?

Let’s take women from the far East. Pants have always been part of their daily dress. These women did a great deal of farm work. Pants were very practical, inexpensive and modest. Maybe, had Mary been Korean, Japanese, Chinese, she may have worn pants. Pants were unknown in Palestine. Even men didn’t wear pants.

Heck, pants were not common in Europe either. They came into fashion after the MIddle Ages. Why do you folks think that monks and friars wear tunics without pants under them? That’s how the peasants dressed.

I’m remembering the Rule of St. Francis to the Poor Clare nuns. He tells them that the nuns are to wear whatever is modest, comfortable, appropriate for time, culture and climate. He tells them that the abbess decides what the sisters of each house are to wear. However, the abbess must pay attention to the likes and dislikes of the sisters in making her decision. If you visit 10 Poor Clare houses, you may find 10 different versions of the Franciscan habit, some are long, some are short. Some cover their hair, some show some hair and others wear no veil at all. The original Poor Clares only wore a veil after the profession of vows.

The word the repeats itself in every spiritual writing in Church history is modesty. The Church leaves it up to the individual to define modesty according to his culture, climate, needs and resources.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

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