Women's Fashion

[Portrait]

Ah, but the age old argument…WHO gets to decide what is appropriate dress?

Is showing a shoulder too much?
Is showing a forearm too much?
Is showing a knee too much?
Is showing an ankle too much?

What if I am in my own home, on my own deck? Can I wear a spaghetti top with shorts while I read a book in the sun on my deck? What if my neighbor cuts down his tree branches - do I then have to wear a turtle neck and long pants on the deck?

What can I wear while I work in my yard? Is the same short/tank top OK with you? Or do I have to cover head to toe?

Dear Catholic90,

Hello again, dear friend.

A well-formed conscience, imbued with the whole sweep of Catholic tradition, coupled with sanctified common sense will aid us in making the correct decisions. However, provided that we do not have a radically defective conscience, that has indiscriminately absorbed the spirit of the age, we will be happy to reveal as little amount of flesh as possible and to keep ourselves well-covered in public.

Here in the UK today the weather is exceedingly hot and humid and I am wearing a long sleeve cotton shirt (cannary yellow) and a pair of forrest green chinos. I am quite cool and comfortable in this attire both inside and out of doors. Neither do I look singular or even unfashionable, I am simply dressed in lightweight Summer apparel. My point is that it is perfectly possible to wear modest attire that is both comfortable and fashionable. Modesty clothing does not equal unattractively dull or, as you say stateside, tacky.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[severus68]

Dear Catholic90,

Hello again, dear friend.

According to St. Paul submitting necessarily implies being submissive: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the Church, his body, and is himself its Saviour. As the Church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands” (Eph. 5: 22-24). Clearly, a Christian wife can hardly be subject to her husband in everything unless she is first of a submissive disposition.

Of course, when St. Paul speaks of women being subject to their husbands in everything he means everything pertaining to the husbands legitimate authority and everything not contrary to the true Catholic faith. Any equality within the sphere of grace and redemption (Gal. 3: 28; I Pet. 3: 7) does not discount the God-given order for marriage. This Divine order is gravely disturbed when wives either seek to rule their husbands or refuse loving self-subjection, as is increasingly becoming the case today, even in conservative Catholic marriages.

A pious Catholic women is never ostentatiously self-assertive or forward in her manner, but is rather submissive and adorned “with the imperishable jewel of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious” (I Pet. 3: 4). A “gentle and quiet spirit” decidedly does not sit comfortably with pushy self-assertion or secular femenist ideology about equality of the sexes and the right of a women to self-determination. From the standpoint of our holy religion, the submission and submissiveness of wives is non-negotiable. Marital Obedience and recognition of her husband’s authority and leadership comes with the territory of being a Catholic wife (I Cor. 11: 1-3; Eph. 5: 22-24). Needless to say, this Divine pattern does not fit the mode of our egalitarian culture and the godless ideology of militant femenism, but should that be a cause of concern to Catholic who do not conform to this world and who does not set his watch by the town clock?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

So wives (or is it all women?) are basically serfs of their husbands? You make a very poor and wrong statement of how women are viewed by the Church.

 

[Portrait]

It is not a Church doctrine that women must be passive and submissive. Insecure men avoid strong women with a sense of self. Secure men are happy to have women with thoughts of their own who use their brains and abilities, as their wives, in a marriage of equality, with give and take and mutual respect.

Dear severus68,

Cordial greetings and a very good day, dear sister.

It is a teaching of Sacred Scripture and Catholic tradition that women should be submissive to their own husbands (see I Pet. 3: 1-6). The Church would never trump Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition.

Of course women can have their own thoughts and their is nothing wrong with give and take in a marriage, but the husband is the head of the wife and in the event of any major disagreement, his word must be final, otherwise you would have anarchy within the home, to say nothing of setting a very bad un-Christian example to any children. Minor issues can normally be resolved by talking matters through and by the husband showing love, gentleness, reasonableness, patience and fairness to his beloved wife. However, it is a modern error to think of families as little democracies.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Portrait]

Again I feel the need to defend my friend. While it is not wrong for a woman to ask a man out on a date, it is unladylike is is not ideal. Im 16 and i can figure that out. Go on chastity.com (in the dateing section) for more explanation on christian gender roles.

However, your insult towards “outdated” cultural norms is erroneous. You mean cultural norms that have an unbroken link to Jewish-Christian/Western high culture? Norms that were created under the influence of a society much more influenced by Christanity than today? Its not defaulting to “outdated” cultural norms, its falling back on gender roles rooted in classic Catholic/Christian thinking, and the Church certainly supports that.

Not to mention that because the Church “falls silent” on an issue (which it rarely does, more offten than not, its people not wanting to find out real Church teaching), that dosent give the go-ahead to instantly take the most liberal possition possible. Root your thinking in Catholic tradition as well, because the chatechism isnt the be-all and end-all of Church teaching, its also explaned in the writings of the Saints, popes, and church fathers.

Dear DAAVEED1590,

Cordial greetings and a very good day, dear friend.

That was a jolly splendid post that you submitted and I have already said to another poster that you showed a maturity and insight far exceeding your young age. Our Church desperately needs young men of your calibre in these days of widespread moral and cultural deterioration. Yes, the Catechism is not the sum total of all Church teaching and many modern Catholics are wont to ignore the whole sweep of Catholic tradition because they are worried that it might inform them of some rather unpalatable truths that they would prefer not to hear.

Indeed, we must “root our thinking in Catholic tradition”, otherwise our Faith will be very unbalanced and incomplete.

Many of the much derided cultural norms actually owe their origin to the Judeo-Christian tradition and should not be glibly brushed aside as antiquated and worthless conventions that have now ceased to be relevant. Many on these boards reveal a prejudice against anything that was written the day before yesterday and such a mindset is totally alien to the spirit of Catholicism. It is the result of failing to think with an authentic Catholic mind.

Anyway thankyou for your (name removed by moderator)ut, young man, and keep up the good work and stay close to Christ - our lot is cast in very perilous times indeed.

Warmest good wishes and prayers,

Portrait:tiphat:

Pax

 

[Catholic90]

A pious Catholic women is never ostentatiously self-assertive or forward in her manner, but is rather submissive and adorned “with the imperishable jewel of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious” (I Pet. 3: 4). A “gentle and quiet spirit” decidedly does not sit comfortably with pushy self-assertion or secular femenist ideology about equality of the sexes and the right of a women to self-determination. From the standpoint of our holy religion, the submission and submissiveness of wives is non-negotiable.** Marital Obedience **and recognition of her husband’s authority and leadership comes with the territory of being a Catholic wife (I Cor. 11: 1-3; Eph. 5: 22-24). Needless to say, this Divine pattern does not fit the mode of our egalitarian culture and the godless ideology of militant femenism, but should that be a cause of concern to Catholic who do not conform to this world and who does not set his watch by the town clock?

Being submissive does not mean being a doormat. Also, “marital obedience” means what, exactly? Please note that nowhere in Catholic wedding vows are the words “obey” found.

How about women who are not married? Must they be “submissive” to all men in their lives as well, according to you?

I think NOT!

A married woman can be assertive and still allow her husband to lead. A good woman will speak her mind; otherwise, she is a doormat.

Doormats get walked on.

 

[Catholic90]

Here in the UK today the weather is exceedingly hot and humid and I am wearing a long sleeve cotton shirt (cannary yellow) and a pair of forrest green chinos. I am quite cool and comfortable in this attire both inside and out of doors. Neither do I look singular or even unfashionable, I am simply dressed in lightweight Summer apparel. My point is that it is perfectly possible to wear modest attire that is both comfortable and fashionable. Modesty clothing does not equal unattractively dull or, as you say stateside, tacky.

I never wear sleeves in summer. I also never wear long pants in summer.

I wear tank tops and shorts. Period.

I would find it very uncomfortable if I wore long sleeves and pants while sitting in the sun! I like comfort, so therefore, I will wear my shorts and tanks.

 

[Catholic90]

Dear DAAVEED1590,

That was a jolly splendid post that you submitted and I have already said to another poster that you showed a maturity and insight far exceeding your young age.

Hopefully you will grow in wisdom and maturity as you age. Not all men do.

Some men feel that women ought to be seen and not heard, that any woman who has an opinion or shows intelligence is to be avoided, as they may be perceived as “forward”. Unfortunately, some men are threatened by this. Perhaps they are insecure.

It is too bad, really.

 

[JoArtist]

Women do not have to be PASSIVE. Your idea of submitting to the husband in marriage is apparently warped.

Submitting does not equal SUBMISSIVE.

A PASSIVE and SUBMISSIVE woman can be much like a doormat.

I guess if that is the type you like, though, who am I to say.

However, for those of us with spines, there is nothing wrong with stating what and who we like! (or what we don’t like!).

Women can say what and who we like too!

 

[JoArtist]

I feel like some of these men want us women to be weak and passive, not speaking for ourselves and just going with the flow of life. Should women really not be able to have drive and independence? Especially with the fact that so many women end up being single mothers like my aunts, my mother, my mother in law, my step mother (her son is older now and hasn’t lived with her since she got married), and countless other women. Women NEED to be independent out of necessity, not to mention to be real adults.
My husband and I always discuss every major decision that affects one another and we make decisions together (because he cares about how I feel just as much as I care about how he does). We are just as able to make wise decisions as males! One major reason that I hear that many people want nothing to do with the Church is that so many of its members are sexist, which is true from what I have experienced.

 

[Catholic90]

I feel like some of these men want us women to be weak and passive, not speaking for ourselves and just going with the flow of life. Should women really not be able to have drive and independence?

Yes, silent, barefoot, and in the kitchen with no original thought is their ideal woman.

Sorry, that is not me. I am a strong woman, and I must be able to stand up for myself.

I do stand up for myself.

I have 3 sons, and they also appear to be attracted to strong women.

My son’s first girlfriend was a doormat. She was cute, polite, sweet, and all that, which first attracted him to her, but she had no opinions. He would ask her what she thought of something, and her reply would be, “I don’t know. What do YOU think?” A doormat. He broke up with her.

My other son’s girlfriend is an ambitious, driven young woman. She earned an academic scholarship and is pursuing engineering. She is also cute, polite, sweet, but she has opinions, thoughts, ambition, drive, and ideas. I like her!

 

[cathlicconvert]

Why is it so hard for some to put their pride to the side and accept what 2000 years of sacred tradition, and the Bible have taught?

Both MEN & WOMEN should dress modestly so as to not lead anyone else (man, woman, heterosexual, or homosexual) to be drawn toward the sin of lust.

Both MEN & WOMEN should do everything in their power not to lust after others, and should practice chastity in their lives.

Why do we allow ourselves to get caught up in worldly desires for “independence”, “freedom”, etc. Why do so many feminists look down on women like my wife who has equal importance to myself in our marriage, but acknowledges that I am the head of our household, the spiritual leader, and make all final decisions except those affecting our children (which is her domain as a mother). She stays home and cares for our home and children. She dresses modestly always, wears a head covering to mass, has an opinion and will share it when appropriate, is polite, and beautiful… Yet modern feminism has vilified and looked down upon women who accept and embrace traditional gender roles.

In my experience loud mouthed, brash, and aggressive women, tend to have weak and timid husbands (perhaps not always, but in my experience).

We all need to get over ourselves and pride. I must subject myself to Christ, and give everything I have for/to my wife… even my life if so called. She must subject herself to Christ too (by being submissive to her husband as the Bible calls for… do not mistake this for an abusive or one sided relationship).

It is a challenge to dress more modestly… even for men in today’s age… but as Christ said the road to heaven is very narrow.

 

[Walking_Home]

Hopefully you will grow in wisdom and maturity as you age. Not all men do.

Some men feel that women ought to be seen and not heard, that any woman who has an opinion or shows intelligence is to be avoided, as they may be perceived as “forward”. Unfortunately, some men are threatened by this. Perhaps they are insecure.

It is too bad, really.

---

Ditto.

 

[JoArtist]

---

Ditto.

Ditto.

 

[severus68]

Why is it so hard for some to put their pride to the side and accept what 2000 years of sacred tradition, and the Bible have taught?

Both MEN & WOMEN should dress modestly so as to not lead anyone else (man, woman, heterosexual, or homosexual) to be drawn toward the sin of lust.

Both MEN & WOMEN should do everything in their power not to lust after others, and should practice chastity in their lives.

Why do we allow ourselves to get caught up in worldly desires for “independence”, “freedom”, etc. Why do so many feminists look down on women like my wife who has equal importance to myself in our marriage, but acknowledges that I am the head of our household, the spiritual leader, and make all final decisions except those affecting our children (which is her domain as a mother). She stays home and cares for our home and children. She dresses modestly always, wears a head covering to mass, has an opinion and will share it when appropriate, is polite, and beautiful… Yet modern feminism has vilified and looked down upon women who accept and embrace traditional gender roles.

In my experience loud mouthed, brash, and aggressive women, tend to have weak and timid husbands (perhaps not always, but in my experience).

We all need to get over ourselves and pride. I must subject myself to Christ, and give everything I have for/to my wife… even my life if so called. She must subject herself to Christ too (by being submissive to her husband as the Bible calls for… do not mistake this for an abusive or one sided relationship).

It is a challenge to dress more modestly… even for men in today’s age… but as Christ said the road to heaven is very narrow.

You and your wife can have whatever marriage you want. You do not want others to look down on women like your wife, please be respectful about others who do not want marriages like yours.
Please do not state that it is the kind of marriage Christ wants. A woman does not need to find Christ or go to Christ through a man. What about the many loud mouthed, brash and very aggressive men’? Putting aside pride applies to all.

 

[severus68]

I feel like some of these men want us women to be weak and passive, not speaking for ourselves and just going with the flow of life. Should women really not be able to have drive and independence? Especially with the fact that so many women end up being single mothers like my aunts, my mother, my mother in law, my step mother (her son is older now and hasn’t lived with her since she got married), and countless other women. Women NEED to be independent out of necessity, not to mention to be real adults.
My husband and I always discuss every major decision that affects one another and we make decisions together (because he cares about how I feel just as much as I care about how he does). We are just as able to make wise decisions as males! One major reason that I hear that many people want nothing to do with the Church is that so many of its members are sexist, which is true from what I have experienced.

Yes, this is true. What irks me is that they want to try to turn the Church into sort of exclusive club where men have rights and women only a privilege and then only through men. The saddest thing is that some women have bought into this.

 

[JoArtist]

Yes, this is true. What irks me is that they want to try to turn the Church into sort of exclusive club where men have rights and women only a privilege and then only through men. The saddest thing is that some women have bought into this.

I know exactly what you mean and I am pretty darn sure it is NOT what God wants.

 

[cathlicconvert]

Please do not state that it is the kind of marriage Christ wants. A woman does not need to find Christ or go to Christ through a man. What about the many loud mouthed, brash and very aggressive men’? Putting aside pride applies to all.

I didn’t state what kind of marriage Christ wants… I outlined what the Bible and sacred tradition teaches…

And I agree, loud, aggressive, vulgar, disrespectful men are just as appalling IMO.

If you took my statement as a condemnation of women and a guilt free pass for men, quite the contrary… if anything Men should be held to the highest of standards as they are to the the spiritual leader of their family.

Also I never claimed that a woman has to go to Christ through a man or her husband… only that being subject to Christ calls for her to be submissive to her husband. A woman is to be submissive to her husband just as the church is submissive to Christ… the husband must respect and give all to his wife, just as Christ gave his life for the Church.

 

[cathlicconvert]

Yes, this is true. What irks me is that they want to try to turn the Church into sort of exclusive club where men have rights and women only a privilege and then only through men. The saddest thing is that some women have bought into this.

Though some men may feel this way I think this is a gross misrepresentation of how men of the Church feel… after all The Blessed Virgin is the most venerated human to ever live… and has the title co-redeemer… I hardly think that reflects a misogynistic Church.

 

[severus68]

I didn’t state what kind of marriage Christ wants… I outlined what the Bible and sacred tradition teaches…

And I agree, loud, aggressive, vulgar, disrespectful men are just as appalling IMO.

If you took my statement as a condemnation of women and a guilt free pass for men, quite the contrary… if anything Men should be held to the highest of standards as they are to the the spiritual leader of their family.

Also I never claimed that a woman has to go to Christ through a man or her husband… only that being subject to Christ calls for her to be submissive to her husband. A woman is to be submissive to her husband just as the church is submissive to Christ… the husband must respect and give all to his wife, just as Christ gave his life for the Church.

So by saying the bible and Sacred Tradition, you do not mean Christ? What Sacred Tradition please?

Each person should be responsible for his/her spirituality. So who does an unmarried woman submit to, in your opinion?

You did say that by a woman submitting to her husband, she submits to Christ, so what does that mean?

Christ is God, divine, a man is not. What about what John Paul II had to say about submission?

Even Paul had to say that in Christianity, it is different, all are equal.

 

[severus68]

Though some men may feel this way I think this is a gross misrepresentation of how men of the Church feel… after all The Blessed Virgin is the most venerated human to ever live… and has the title co-redeemer… I hardly think that reflects a misogynistic Church.

Mary is to be specially honoured but she is human. We do not need to go through her to God/Christ. Christ is our sole redeemer. We all submit and worship God, we do not worship Mary. This why many Protestants have a wrong idea about Catholics and Mary.