Women's "Jumpers": Yea or Nay

[piouswoman]

Actually, this is incorrect. Modesty is very much dependent on external factors such as time, place, and culture. St. Thomas Aquinas discusses this in the Summa. Modesty is different from most other virtues in that it is focused on other people’s perceptions, which are dependent on a number of factors. Modesty involves avoiding attire or actions that would be likely to draw inappropriate attention to ourselves, especially with regards to protecting purity. However, factors that draw such attention vary with time, place, and culture. As skatepixie noted, attire that would likely draw inappropriate attention in a bank would not have the same effect at a beach.

To draw a more striking example, consider the fact that complete exposure of your body while being examined by a doctor is not immodest because in that situation it is not likely to cause impure thoughts in others, and the doctor is expected to maintain a professional demeanor, both externally and internally. Thus, although nudity is involved, its effects on the observer are not the same as they would be in another context. Modesty is very much dependent on context.

Would you mind providing the link to what St. Thomas Aquinas said in the Summa as to modesty?

I have a feeling that if St. Thomas Aquinas were alive today, to see the way women dress, the unabashedly immodest dress, he would recoil in horror. You speak of context as though it were an excuse, well, there is NO excuse for the way most women dress today, and those that are apologists for it are enemies of all that is good.

 

[laudamus_te]

Since you feel it’s appropriate to tell others how “wrong” they are in their personal views of modesty (very CONSERVATIVE views), I feel comfortable suggesting that **you may have a mild case of OCD or neurosis **where this issue is concerned. If you honestly believe a swimsuit (and you gave NO qualifiers here, just the general term) is immodest, or that someone dressed in a potato sack can still be provocative depending on how she “sways her hips”, then I think you have absorbed some extremist views of modesty, femininity and sexuality. What would you have women do at the beach or at the pool?
http://www.ahiida.com/img/products/large_thumbs/190-748-1199365503.jpg

Or is swimming immodest as well? Are we Catholic or Muslims here? Are we Catholic or Puritains?

Your desire to cover nearly every inch of your body in layers and layers of billowy fabrics might work if you’re Amish and not interacting with the world. But if I ever went to a job interview dressed in the “housecoat” pictured in my other post, I would give the impression of sloppiness, slovenliness, and low self-esteem. Obviously, I would not get the job.

For those who keep harping on how the Blessed Mother dressed, may I just point out that she was actually following the fashion customs of her day. And while nuns dressed in full habit may not be described as sloppy or frumpy, they ARE indeed attempting to convey the message of celibacy and a committment to a specific vocation. I don’t think a wife and mother should be donning a habit or a housecoat unless she too wishes to convey the message of sexual ambiguity. Boy, I’d sure like to hear from some honest husbands on this issue also!

I was just waiting for the burka picture. You people are so predictable. It’s amazing how quickly the accusations of “Puritan” and “Muslim” come out when someone starts defending modesty.

Yes, it is very appropriate to correct another Catholic who has a “personal opinion” which is wrong according to the Church. It is not true that a woman has no responsibility if a man sins by looking at her if she is immodestly dressed. The sin is shared. Look it up. A tank top and hot pants is most assuredly immodest. Am I the only one not offended by that, or concerned for that person’s misguided soul? Thank you for following my appropriate correction with wildly untrue characterizations of me, which I have bolded. How you come up with these judgments of my personality from my few posts is beyond me. You will notice that it is only the defenders of modern-day immodesty who have to come out with the personal insults.

 

[laudamus_te]

Actually, this is incorrect. Modesty is very much dependent on external factors such as time, place, and culture. St. Thomas Aquinas discusses this in the Summa. Modesty is different from most other virtues in that it is focused on other people’s perceptions, which are dependent on a number of factors. Modesty involves avoiding attire or actions that would be likely to draw inappropriate attention to ourselves, especially with regards to protecting purity.

Very true.

However, factors that draw such attention vary with time, place, and culture. As skatepixie noted, attire that would likely draw inappropriate attention in a bank would not have the same effect at a beach.

That is ridiculous. Are you saying that a girl in a bikini is not a temptation to sin for a man simply because she is at the beach? Why, because she just blends in with the sand or something?

 

[jdmayer]

You people are so predictable

AD HOMINEM ALERT!

 

[laudamus_te]

AD HOMINEM ALERT!

I rest my case.

 

[piouswoman]

Since you feel it’s appropriate to tell others how “wrong” they are in their personal views of modesty (very CONSERVATIVE views), I feel comfortable suggesting that you may have a mild case of OCD or neurosis where this issue is concerned. If you honestly believe a swimsuit (and you gave NO qualifiers here, just the general term) is immodest, or that someone dressed in a potato sack can still be provocative depending on how she “sways her hips”, then I think you have absorbed some extremist views of modesty, femininity and sexuality. What would you have women do at the beach or at the pool?
http://www.ahiida.com/img/products/large_thumbs/190-748-1199365503.jpg

Or is swimming immodest as well? Are we Catholic or Muslims here? Are we Catholic or Puritains?

Your desire to cover nearly every inch of your body in layers and layers of billowy fabrics might work if you’re Amish and not interacting with the world. But if I ever went to a job interview dressed in the “housecoat” pictured in my other post, I would give the impression of sloppiness, slovenliness, and low self-esteem. Obviously, I would not get the job.

For those who keep harping on how the Blessed Mother dressed, may I just point out that she was actually following the fashion customs of her day. And while nuns dressed in full habit may not be described as sloppy or frumpy, they ARE indeed attempting to convey the message of celibacy and a committment to a specific vocation. I don’t think a wife and mother should be donning a habit or a housecoat unless she too wishes to convey the message of sexual ambiguity. Boy, I’d sure like to hear from some honest husbands on this issue also!

Actually, swimming can be quite immodest. Not many women today would consider wearing a modest swimsuit. Think about it, most women are too busy dieting, working out, toning, shaving, waxing, plucking and bronzing so that they can go out in their bikinis and sell their bodies.

 

[jdmayer]

I rest my case.

Not a great way to engage in debate is all I’m sayin’

 

[strngrnrth]

That is ridiculous. Are you saying that a girl in a bikini is not a temptation to sin for a man simply because she is at the beach? Why, because she just blends in with the sand or something?

Because he should be used to the sight and able to look past her, because she blends in with the other beachgoers and doesn’t stand out, because there is no reason for him to imagine lewd intent on her part and he should have more self-control than to fantasize about what he knows isn’t true.
Most of all, because if he is capable of simple everyday compassion he should be perceiving her as needing to wear something that won’t drag her down when she swims, not as being on display for him. I don’t mean thongs, I mean decent one-piece suits or the aforementioned halter and shorts.
If she were in a crash and her shirt came off whent hey pulled her out of the crumpled car, would it be reasonable for a man to blame a woman for turning him on? Not to me. I think needing to go get in the water is a similar situation, as is peeling off what you can when it’s dangerously hot. When your heart races and skips beats, and you are beginning to hallucinate, it’s time to consider it a medical emergency and do a little first aid on your self. If you have far to walk or are working hard, it’s important medically to lighten your load well before the symptoms begin. I am very strongly for wearing plenty of clothes, but my safety and ability to do my work trump a stranger’s inability to turn his head and looka t something else. If I produced a welding torch or another bright light I think they would figure out how to look away, so they might just know how after all. That’s all.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Actually, swimming can be quite immodest. Not many women today would consider wearing a modest swimsuit. Think about it, most women are too busy dieting, working out, toning, shaving, waxing, plucking and bronzing so that they can go out in their bikinis and sell their bodies.

Most of us who are dieting, working out, toning, shaving, waxing, plucking and bronzing are doing it because we look nice when we do and we enjoy looking nice.
I wear pants and sweaters all winter and I still do the above.

 

[Lepanto]

Because he should be used to the sight and able to look past her, because she blends in with the other beachgoers and doesn’t stand out, because there is no reason for him to imagine lewd intent on her part and he should have more self-control than to fantasize about what he knows isn’t true.

When a man sees a woman in a bikini on a beach–whether she is by herself or surrounded by other beachgoers–he starts thinking things.

Trust me on this one.

 

[laudamus_te]

Not a great way to engage in debate is all I’m sayin’

What debate? I was unjustifiably attacked and labeled as “puritanical” and neurotic! And the use of “you people” was in reference to the fact that there have been at least 4 individuals on this thread making “muslim” or “amish” comments. I as addressing them collectively.

 

[laudamus_te]

Because he should be used to the sight and able to look past her, because she blends in with the other beachgoers and doesn’t stand out, because there is no reason for him to imagine lewd intent on her part and he should have more self-control than to fantasize about what he knows isn’t true.

Perhaps you are just extremely naive, but my bet is that you, like most people today, are so numbed by the glut of immodesty which is everywhere you turn, that you think nothing of seeing other people practically nude.

Lepanto:

When a man sees a woman in a bikini on a beach–whether she is by herself or surrounded by other beachgoers–he starts thinking things.

Trust me on this one.

Precisely. Some girls just don’t get it.

 

[piouswoman]

Most of us who are dieting, working out, toning, shaving, waxing, plucking and bronzing are doing it because we look nice when we do and we enjoy looking nice.
I wear pants and sweaters all winter and I still do the above.

You can overdo the vanity.

 

[jdmayer]

The primary cause of any sin is the choice of the person to do the wrong thing. The hot girl in the short skirt might lead me into temptation, but it’s my will that takes the plunge. Some guys can get turned on by anything with two legs. I’ve known guys who think that almost every girl is dressing immodestly, because they are tempted left and right. It gets ridiculous fast. Self-control is of the utmost import, and learning to clamp down on your wandering mind takes effort (and, of course, a lot of grace). It’s YOUR OWN responsibility, though, and no one else’s.

For ladies picking out their cute outfits, I don’t think the real question should be “will I lead men into sin?” That’s reactionary and really not the crux of the issue. Rather, “am I dressing in a way that reflects the dignity of my whole person?” If you have this attitude, an effect will be that you won’t wear anything that anyone could justly claim as scandalous.

Also keep in mind that there are a lot of factors that go into dressing modestly. It can’t be defined by some simple rules or any formula. Factors include body type, the way one carries themself, even general attitude, etc etc etc.

Glad I’m a guy and don’t have to worry about this stuff! Anyone seen my green day-glo muscle shirt?

 

[laudamus_te]

Most of us who are dieting, working out, toning, shaving, waxing, plucking and bronzing are doing it because we look nice when we do and we enjoy looking nice.
I wear pants and sweaters all winter and I still do the above.

I have nothing against wishing to keep oneself groomed and looking decent and pretty. But women need to stop and ask themselves: Why do I enjoy doing all these things to look nice? Is it because I enjoy the feeling of human respect? Do I enjoy the idea that I can get a look from a man? Do I feel a need to compete with other women? What is the motivation? When we start to answer these questions honestly, then we can start to understand the true virtue of modesty, and begin working on the difficult virtue of humility.

 

[jdmayer]

Bronzing? LADIES CHILL ON THE FAKE TANS!

 

[laudamus_te]

The primary cause of any sin is the choice of the person to do the wrong thing. The hot girl in the short skirt might lead me into temptation, but it’s my will that takes the plunge. Some guys can get turned on by anything with two legs. I’ve known guys who think that almost every girl is dressing immodestly, because they are tempted left and right. It gets ridiculous fast. Self-control is of the utmost import, and learning to clamp down on your wandering mind takes effort (and, of course, a lot of grace). It’s YOUR OWN responsibility, though, and no one else’s.

From How to Make a Good Confession (TAN Books), under sins against the 6th and 9th Commandments:

“Have I dressed immodestly? Have I by immodest dress or freedom of speech or manners been a cause of temptation to the purity of others?”

 

[jdmayer]

From How to Make a Good Confession (TAN Books), under sins against the 6th and 9th Commandments:

“Have I dressed immodestly? Have I by immodest dress or freedom of speech or manners been a cause of temptation to the purity of others?”

Not sure how what I said could be construed as ‘dressing immodestly is not sinful’. ““Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.””

I’m merely saying that when you sin, you are the one who is most culpable for your sin. Everyone should be encouraged to dress modestly, but when I have lustful thoughts about someone, it’s my problem more than theirs. If they intended to provoke such a reaction, then they are in the doghouse too.

 

[strngrnrth]

If you wear ugly clothes you may provoke pride in others. If you wear stylish clothes you may provoke avarice and envy. If you wear comfortable clothes you may provoke pride, lust or envy. If you wear something someone else doesn’t have the freedom to wear you may provoke wrath and envy. If you wear the same drab clothes all the time you may encourage sloth.
If you didn’t intend to do so and you had a practical reason for your clothes, is it really your burden? Or is it more the burden of the person who chooses the wrong response to what he/she could also ignore or think of in a charitable way instead?
I say wear clothes that dignify you but not to the point of harming yourself. And if others wear things you find tempting (and I have a huge envy issue so I am not without understanding here), avoid those people’s company.

 

[anamchara]

:hypno: Lord have mercy, I couldn’t get past the first post who thought those dresses were not modest :hypno: :ehh: :bigyikes: I guess they don’t live in Cali I think some people get too caught up in what the women look like instead of the dress.

I voted nay but I like the pattern someone showed that was cute.