Women's "Jumpers": Yea or Nay

[blessedtoo]

I was just waiting for the burka picture. You people are so predictable. It’s amazing how quickly the accusations of “Puritan” and “Muslim” come out when someone starts defending modesty.

Yes, it is very appropriate to correct another Catholic who has a “personal opinion” which is wrong according to the Church. It is not true that a woman has no responsibility if a man sins by looking at her if she is immodestly dressed. The sin is shared. Look it up. A tank top and hot pants is most assuredly immodest. Am I the only one not offended by that, or concerned for that person’s misguided soul? Thank you for following my appropriate correction with wildly untrue characterizations of me, which I have bolded. How you come up with these judgments of my personality from my few posts is beyond me. You will notice that it is only the defenders of modern-day immodesty who have to come out with the personal insults.

This dress
http://www.shabbyapple.com/images/PRODUCT/medium/68.jpg

is not immodest “ACCORDING TO THE CHURCH”. In fact, after being a Catholic for 50 years, I can confidently say that the Vatican has NEVER issued a dress code for women.

The definition of puritanical in the dictionary:

**puritanical ***exaggeratedly proper; “my straitlaced Aunt Anna doesn’t approve of my miniskirts” *

How is that not applicable to you?

As I stated in my third post:

I am ridiculously, obsessively modest. Big fan of the turtle neck and well-fitted jackets.

But apparently my idea of modesty and yours are quite different. That’s just fine with me BUT please do not assert this:

Yes, it is very appropriate to correct another Catholic who has a “personal opinion” which is wrong according to the Church.

because that is prideful, arrogant, insulting, and just plain wrong.

If you want to wear a potato sack, be my guest. But refrain from making others feel that they are sinners when they wear perfectly acceptable and modest clothing, even when it’s fashionable. BTW: Style is not a sin.

 

[skatepixie]

You can overdo the vanity.

And “unvanity” for lack of a better word can also be overdone. Obsession with other people’s percieved vanity can be overdone. Pride over the fact that you are not as vain or immodest as ___ can be overdone.

Keep in mind that fashions change. What is considered unacceptable changes.

In the renaissance, women would never dare show an ankle, but showing your breasts almost to the nipples in a tight bodice that gives you major cleavege…sure! To us, this is strange…for them it was their standard of desency. We have to go by the standard for our cluture in our time.

As for the person who suggested loose sleeves to keep the sun off…maybe some of us like feeling the sun on our skin and getting a tan! I can’t say I’ve ever heard a tan discribed as “unattractive” by a person living today. I suppose I should wear gloves to prevent all chance of my skin getting tan…not! Because its so ugly… Um, not in the century, dear!

 

[Baltzer_Jacobo]

Hello friends: I think that what we have going here is alot of good ( Catholic ) Christian people who are getting stressed out by the odd extremes in our crazy society, right now.
Two extremes and the ideas/tastes/philosophies behind them. We have the really IMMODEST low, low cut tops and the low riding pants and skirts that make us believe that these girls are aspiring plumbers!
Then we have the other extreme: the overly frumpy, billowy jumper or really large skirt ( probably a scrupulous over-compensation for the immodest in our midst ) that seem to be in pre-Burka [Burqa] training 101.
To pardon the pun, people, I really do believe that we are all on the same page with this one ( or two, as it were ) There is no need to attack one another over this. These are both extremes, we know it and I think…are all in agreement on that.
We all know what IMMODEST is, we all know what REALLY FRUMPY is… we don’t have to buy into either…pun intended!
Be kind, dress modestly, look nice!—'Til later,----B

 

[Baltzer_Jacobo]

BTW, what do all of you think of women and girls wearing Tatoos? It seems to be mostly the immodestly amongst us that choose this artform and the immodest clothes tend to give co-workers and co-shoppers an ArtShow without visiting a gallery! I find this really ugly.
Should have started a new thread on this one, but…I am new to this and couldn’t figure out how to do it. 'Til later,—B

 

[blessedtoo]

BTW, what do all of you think of women and girls wearing Tatoos? It seems to be mostly the immodestly amongst us that choose this artform and the immodest clothes tend to give co-workers and co-shoppers an ArtShow without visiting a gallery! I find this really ugly.
Should have started a new thread on this one, but…I am new to this and couldn’t figure out how to do it. 'Til later,—B

There are about five other threads on tattoos. Here is one:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=54013

 

[Lepanto]

http://www.modestapparelusa.com/jumper_brnfloraltwill.jpg

There is nothing dignified, pretty or feminine about this hideous potato sack.

Of all the threads filled with polemics and apologetics arguing for celibacy on this board, this is the strongest argument that I have yet seen!

 

[elt1956]

The primary cause of any sin is the choice of the person to do the wrong thing. The hot girl in the short skirt might lead me into temptation, but it’s my will that takes the plunge. Some guys can get turned on by anything with two legs. I’ve known guys who think that almost every girl is dressing immodestly, because they are tempted left and right. It gets ridiculous fast. Self-control is of the utmost import, and learning to clamp down on your wandering mind takes effort (and, of course, a lot of grace). It’s YOUR OWN responsibility, though, and no one else’s.

For ladies picking out their cute outfits, I don’t think the real question should be “will I lead men into sin?” That’s reactionary and really not the crux of the issue. Rather, “am I dressing in a way that reflects the dignity of my whole person?” If you have this attitude, an effect will be that you won’t wear anything that anyone could justly claim as scandalous.

Also keep in mind that there are a lot of factors that go into dressing modestly. It can’t be defined by some simple rules or any formula. Factors include body type, the way one carries themself, even general attitude, etc etc etc.

Glad I’m a guy and don’t have to worry about this stuff! Anyone seen my green day-glo muscle shirt?

Thank you very much. I agree with what you say very much. Makes sense to me. Peace.

 

[elt1956]

The primary cause of any sin is the choice of the person to do the wrong thing. The hot girl in the short skirt might lead me into temptation, but it’s my will that takes the plunge. Some guys can get turned on by anything with two legs. I’ve known guys who think that almost every girl is dressing immodestly, because they are tempted left and right. It gets ridiculous fast. Self-control is of the utmost import, and learning to clamp down on your wandering mind takes effort (and, of course, a lot of grace). It’s YOUR OWN responsibility, though, and no one else’s.

For ladies picking out their cute outfits, I don’t think the real question should be “will I lead men into sin?” That’s reactionary and really not the crux of the issue. Rather, “am I dressing in a way that reflects the dignity of my whole person?” If you have this attitude, an effect will be that you won’t wear anything that anyone could justly claim as scandalous.

Also keep in mind that there are a lot of factors that go into dressing modestly. It can’t be defined by some simple rules or any formula. Factors include body type, the way one carries themself, even general attitude, etc etc etc.

Glad I’m a guy and don’t have to worry about this stuff! Anyone seen my green day-glo muscle shirt?

From How to Make a Good Confession (TAN Books), under sins against the 6th and 9th Commandments:

“Have I dressed immodestly? Have I by immodest dress or freedom of speech or manners been a cause of temptation to the purity of others?”

Dear laudamus. Have you met piouswoman? You two must be sisters.

 

[elt1956]

The primary cause of any sin is the choice of the person to do the wrong thing. The hot girl in the short skirt might lead me into temptation, but it’s my will that takes the plunge. Some guys can get turned on by anything with two legs. I’ve known guys who think that almost every girl is dressing immodestly, because they are tempted left and right. It gets ridiculous fast. Self-control is of the utmost import, and learning to clamp down on your wandering mind takes effort (and, of course, a lot of grace). It’s YOUR OWN responsibility, though, and no one else’s.

For ladies picking out their cute outfits, I don’t think the real question should be “will I lead men into sin?” That’s reactionary and really not the crux of the issue. Rather, “am I dressing in a way that reflects the dignity of my whole person?” If you have this attitude, an effect will be that you won’t wear anything that anyone could justly claim as scandalous.

Also keep in mind that there are a lot of factors that go into dressing modestly. It can’t be defined by some simple rules or any formula. Factors include body type, the way one carries themself, even general attitude, etc etc etc.

Glad I’m a guy and don’t have to worry about this stuff! Anyone seen my green day-glo muscle shirt?

Dear JD. Don’t worry about laudamus. Some people are on the scrupulous side and can read negativity into any post whether it is there, or not. I for one, enjoyed your VERY REASONABLE post. Don’t involve yourself. Relax, have a cup of tea, (bottle of beer?) put your feet up and congratulate yourself on being reasonable and wise. Peace.

 

[elt1956]

Perhaps you are just extremely naive, but my bet is that you, like most people today, are so numbed by the glut of immodesty which is everywhere you turn, that you think nothing of seeing other people practically nude.

Precisely. Some girls just don’t get it.

Lepanto and laudemus, is this reflex the same one Pavlov talked about?

 

[elt1956]

Perhaps you are just extremely naive, but my bet is that you, like most people today, are so numbed by the glut of immodesty which is everywhere you turn, that you think nothing of seeing other people practically nude.

Precisely. Some girls just don’t get it.

You can overdo the vanity.

Is this that TRUTH you speak of so often?

 

[elt1956]

This dress
http://www.shabbyapple.com/images/PRODUCT/medium/68.jpg

is not immodest “ACCORDING TO THE CHURCH”. In fact, after being a Catholic for 50 years, I can confidently say that the Vatican has NEVER issued a dress code for women.

The definition of puritanical in the dictionary:

How is that not applicable to you?

As I stated in my third post:

But apparently my idea of modesty and yours are quite different. That’s just fine with me BUT please do not assert this:

because that is prideful, arrogant, insulting, and just plain wrong.

If you want to wear a potato sack, be my guest. But refrain from making others feel that they are sinners when they wear perfectly acceptable and modest clothing, even when it’s fashionable. BTW: Style is not a sin.

OOPS! Her sleeves are too short.:yup:

 

[elt1956]

This dress
http://www.shabbyapple.com/images/PRODUCT/medium/68.jpg

is not immodest “ACCORDING TO THE CHURCH”. In fact, after being a Catholic for 50 years, I can confidently say that the Vatican has NEVER issued a dress code for women.

The definition of puritanical in the dictionary:

How is that not applicable to you?

As I stated in my third post:

But apparently my idea of modesty and yours are quite different. That’s just fine with me BUT please do not assert this:

because that is prideful, arrogant, insulting, and just plain wrong.

If you want to wear a potato sack, be my guest. But refrain from making others feel that they are sinners when they wear perfectly acceptable and modest clothing, even when it’s fashionable. BTW: Style is not a sin.

If you wear ugly clothes you may provoke pride in others. If you wear stylish clothes you may provoke avarice and envy. If you wear comfortable clothes you may provoke pride, lust or envy. If you wear something someone else doesn’t have the freedom to wear you may provoke wrath and envy. If you wear the same drab clothes all the time you may encourage sloth.
If you didn’t intend to do so and you had a practical reason for your clothes, is it really your burden? Or is it more the burden of the person who chooses the wrong response to what he/she could also ignore or think of in a charitable way instead?
I say wear clothes that dignify you but not to the point of harming yourself. And if others wear things you find tempting (and I have a huge envy issue so I am not without understanding here), avoid those people’s company.

 

[elt1956]

Actually, swimming can be quite immodest. Not many women today would consider wearing a modest swimsuit. Think about it, most women are too busy dieting, working out, toning, shaving, waxing, plucking and bronzing so that they can go out in their bikinis and sell their bodies.

SELL THEIR BODIES??? Actually I do have soemthing to add. The other day I was in a restaurant and a not so little young girl was sitting with her back to me. Her jeans had slipped below the “modest” point and I really had to restrain myself to keep from walking over and snapping that little y thing they call panties these days. I think she would have been a bit surprised. What say you? Would you have bailed me out after I was charged with assault and battery?? Peace.

 

[kristie_m]

Because as Catholics we should always strive for beauty - it’s an inherent part of our faith.

Hmmmm…I’m not sure I agree with this statement. What makes you think that? Striving for physical beauty may be fine, but an inherent part of our faith? There’s an idea I’ve never heard before.

Personally, I think you ought to wear what makes you comfy (assuming, of course, that your comfiness isn’t cause for someone else to sin!)

I’ve had many people chastise me for wearing clothes that are too baggy…but with an extra sixty pounds, wearing things that are “form fitting” makes me feel like a stuffed sausage. Not to mention that it tends to accentuate things that I’d rather not be flaunting. (And don’t even start on how I need to lose weight…I know, I know!!!)

Thank God my husband finds me attractive whether I’m in a formal gown or my sweats.

 

[elt1956]

Actually, swimming can be quite immodest. Not many women today would consider wearing a modest swimsuit. Think about it, most women are too busy dieting, working out, toning, shaving, waxing, plucking and bronzing so that they can go out in their bikinis and sell their bodies.

Because as Catholics we should always strive for beauty - it’s an inherent part of our faith.

Take a meal, as an example. One can either present it nicely with a beautiful table setting, or just plop it on a dish. Same food, but it can serve to nourish the senses as well as the body.

Also, the way people care for/present themselves says a lot about how they are in other areas of their life. If I see a poorly groomed woman with frumpy shapeless clothes and hair that looks as if she’s just woken up, then I would think twice about wanting to trust her with anything of importance - I would be worried that she would take the same “care” of my business as she does of herself.

It has nothing to do with size. I’ve seen very overweight women dressed nicely in clothing that has some shape and flatters them, and I’ve seen thin women in horrible shapeless denim jumpers worn with sneakers and socks.

As far as the pattern posted by PatienceAndLove, I don’t think that type of fitted jumper-style is what most people think of when they think of the horrible “modest dresser” styles. I think something like this is closer to what most have seen (and dislike).

As to the poll, I vote NAY.

I don’t know if striving for beauty is an inherent part of the Catholic faith??? Striving for perfection is. The desire for beauty is a universal human tendency. Peace.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I was just waiting for the burka picture. You people are so predictable. It’s amazing how quickly the accusations of “Puritan” and “Muslim” come out when someone starts defending modesty.

Yes, it is very appropriate to correct another Catholic who has a “personal opinion” which is wrong according to the Church. It is not true that a woman has no responsibility if a man sins by looking at her if she is immodestly dressed. The sin is shared. Look it up. A tank top and hot pants is most assuredly immodest. Am I the only one not offended by that, or concerned for that person’s misguided soul? Thank you for following my appropriate correction with wildly untrue characterizations of me, which I have bolded. How you come up with these judgments of my personality from my few posts is beyond me. You will notice that it is only the defenders of modern-day immodesty who have to come out with the personal insults.

Actually, swimming can be quite immodest. Not many women today would consider wearing a modest swimsuit. Think about it, most women are too busy dieting, working out, toning, shaving, waxing, plucking and bronzing so that they can go out in their bikinis and sell their bodies.

First, it makes me sad that you two seem to have such a negative opinion of other women. I’ll grant that there are women who do all those things specifically to attract men’s attention-but to make a sweeping generalization that MOST women have that attitude strikes me as a bit extreme.

Secondly, there is a HUGE difference between “a tank top and hot pants” and a pair of pants and a shirt. It seems like you are deliberately going to the extreme in order to prove your theory that MOST women want to and do dress immodestly.

If you were to walk around my office right now and look at the women that work here, you would find that the majority are wearing clean, neat clothing that covers them completely and is not overtly sexualized. Truthfully, the only women I see dressing the way you describe are HS and college age girls who might not be doing it if they had a little direction from the adults in their lives.

 

[elt1956]

I like the “potato sack” better than those dresses - and the fabric is pretty. Those dresses are not at all modest, IMO, and certainly not by traditional Catholic standards. They show too much leg and arm, and are too form-fitting to be called modest - especially the last one.

When a lady needs to seek out modest clothes that make a fashion statement, like those dresses above, she’s missing the point. Modesty is not just about dressing unprovocatively, but it is also about shunning fashion trends and styles because this is just attachment to material things. I am bothered about why so many women feel the need to look “fashionable.” There is no need to look hideous, but clean and neat is all that is necessary.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[love4mary]

I wore a light white button down sweater (i simply love it) and my fiancée said it made me look like a “granny” and kinda on the 'old" side. My late husband also used to complain about how I dressed, to the point of every now and then buying me some outfit. He las a leg man and wanted me to wear dresses that high lighted them.

Today at 45, I don’t wear clothes that show alot of skin, but I do buy them to fit and jumpers “Aint gonna happen”

I prefer a dress or skirt that falls to the knee. My favorite fashions are the dress styles from the 50"s.

 

[Miserissima]

I would like to get back to the origianal quesion, if I may.

My questions are, does modesty (I’m not talking about cost or any other factor) neccessitate the wearing of Jumpers? Does being modest mean dressing in unstylish Jumpers?

Let me see how I can answer your question with light-hearted charity…First, we have to define modesty. Modesty for ladies in THIS case is meant to cover your lady bits and not tempt anyone else with your lady bits. Jumpers, indeed, fit into this category. They are uber-conservative but can almost be made to look stylish with a little lower collar or a little lace…you get what I mean, right?

There are shirt dresses and other modest offerings, but they’re difficult to find. I recommend geting a good,inexpensive tailor to bring up the hem or to add capped sleeves.

This thread has evolved / devolved into has led to HOW to cover those lady bits and what is appropriate in doing so.

And if I didn’t see it already, of course there’s going to be a reference to the book, “Dressing With Dignity,” which for me, goes over the top. But hey, that’s ME, and I still know that I dress modestly and appropriately.

**The problem, as I see it, is that there is NO solidarity among (especially Catholic) women on what Modesty IS. **

A woman who wears a cocktail dress to work (I think I have used this analogy before) may be modest outfit, but has made a poor choice in timing and respect for her environment.

Same goes for a stunning woman who wears an eye-catching red floral print wraparound dress to Mass. Methinks she is bringing glory to God by looking good for Him (and perhaps the congregation?). I think she needs a direction and correction for a wiser lady, but most of us are cowards in gentle confrontation in this way. See? That’s what I mean by the lack of solidarity among women. We don’t know how to address this to another lady, but we sure can snark about it on the forums.

There are those who lead by example in the clothing they choose, but I think most women aren’t showing SOLIDARITY in the modest department (i.e. APPROPRIATELY feminine for going out, jeans for planting flowers in the garden) but I although I have a number of jumpers, I consider them “house dresses.” But women don’t seem to get it. "If it looks good, then it must be appropriate for ______ fill in the blank.

(Incidentally, There is modesty when going to the beach…google “Modest clothes for women” and you can get the swimsuits that cover knees and elbows. You can find patterns as well as clothes “off the rack” and specially tailored for you…without being frumpy, if you choose to go that route And if its such an issue, cut down a light cotton mumu-type just above or below the knee and you can still enjoy the sun.) Additionally, many women are aware of a slew of links to modest clothes that cover those “girly bits” without being in a jumper.

PS I am on my husband’s laptop so will only be checking in as inconsistently as I can.