Women's "Jumpers": Yea or Nay

[Zooey]

(Laying aside for a moment the fact that, having inherited my red-headed grandmother’s complexion, the sun can turn me this color: in under 10 minutes…)

Look, you all, I am 61 years old, I weigh about 185 pounds, and I have a 13 inch scar down my middle, from collarbone to tummy (open heart surgery). Therefore, IMNSHO, this:
http://www.ahiida.com/img/products/large_thumbs/190-748-1199365503.jpg
would look sexier on me than any swimsuit I have clapped eyes on in many a year…

But I just, ummmm… jumped in, to say that these:
7sisterssewing.com/jumper1.html
are American jumpers.
(For the record, I like the one in the middle, but think the others are over the top. But, hey, that’s just me…).

 

[blessedtoo]

As is rash judgment

.
Ok, so you’re twisting in the wind because you think I judged you harshly. And even though I clearly stated in my third post that I favor very modest dress, you pretty easily came to this conclusion:

You people are so predictable…it is only the defenders of modern-day immodesty who have to come out with the personal insults.

And you didn’t hesitate to comment to other posters that:

You are wrong to not feel responsible for men’s lust. It is as much our responsibility (and our sin) as theirs. I suggest you think very carefully about that.

BTW: There is no disagreement here about the culpability of women regarding modesty and the temptation to men. THE DISAGREEMENT IS ABOUT WHAT IS MODEST AND WHAT IS PURITANICAL.

And to an other poster you said:

Perhaps you are just extremely naive, but my bet is that you, like most people today, are so numbed by the glut of immodesty which is everywhere you turn, that you think nothing of seeing other people practically nude.

I’d suggest that you are just as easily given to “rash judgement” as those you’ve accused.

I never said anything about that dress being immodest “ACCORDING TO THE CHURCH.” If you would read my post more carefully, without preconceived, judgmental and false ideas about me, you would see that what I was referring to as being wrong, ACCORDING TO THE CHURCH, was the belief that a woman could wear a tank top and hotpants and not share in the sin of a man who looks lustfully at her. Which was my reason for posting the exerpt from the examination of conscience. Immodest dressing is a sin

Yea, ya did.

Those dresses are not at all modest, IMO, and certainly not by** traditional Catholic standards**. They show too much leg and arm, and are too form-fitting to be called modest - especially the last one.

.

BTW: you keep returning to the “tank top and hot pants” strawman. Not one woman or man on this thread has come close to trying to defend wearing such obviously immodest clothing. You are attempting to create an argument that is noexistent. The debate here is the standard of modesty. You insist there is some “traditional Catholic standard”. Fine. Provide the proof. Show me where the Vatican has stated that a woman must wear a dress, it must come to her lower calves or ankles, she must cover her arms to the wrist and cover her neck. Show me that and I’ll go away quietly.

 

[skatepixie]

If I had suggested wearing a long-sleeved sweater, or a long-sleeved flannel shirt, then yes, I would agree that would be excessive and austere. But, I suggested, by my own personal experience, that loose sleeves in a light-colored or white fabric actually help reflect the sun away from the body, and hence will keep you cooler.

I suppose I misunderstood you when you said:
“I do ask you not to condem those who make reasonable clothing choices”

I’d be happy to tell you my thoughts… wouldn’t it have been better to just ask me this sooner, rather than jumping to conclusions that I am a rigid, austere puritan? What I feel comfortable wearing are dresses and skirts, anywhere from ankle length to mid-calf. I do not feel comfortable in tops that are cut more than a couple of inches below the collarbone, or that expose my shoulders. I do not like to wear sleeves that are too much higher than my elbow, but I will wear them about halfway between elbow and shoulder sometimes. I do not feel comfortable wearing anything that clings to my body. Not only because I think it is immodest, but because I am middle-aged and I now have more “padding.” I prefer blouses to t-shirts for this reason. I most often wear dresses which I sew myself out of nice quality cotton or silk, and these have waist ties to adjust for fit. I also like tiered skirts with a matching blouse or a t-shirt and vest or fitted jacket. I do not own a pair of pants, I think they are unattractive on women and most are very ill-fitting.

This is what I feel is acceptable for myself. What I feel is acceptable for others is what is not offensive to see. I am offended by very much of what I see girls wearing nowadays. Tight, lowcut jeans or very short skirts/shorts, bare midriffs, plunging necklines, bra-straps showing (and I used to think that was ok… shudder). I do have a daughter, 25 years old. She is married, and I have certain reservations about some of her clothing choices. She is becoming slowly more thoughtful about modesty. I would not presume to tell her what she should wear, or anyone else for that matter. Nor would I presume to say you were sinning by wearing a tank top. I believe there would have to be some intent on your part, some desire to appear attractive to men, which would constitute a serious sin on your part. That is for you to determine (and God). I personally would feel almost naked in a tank top. It would be akin to how you would feel wearing a bathing suit in the bank. I would add, however, that I would not have felt that way 3 or 4 years ago. As I have become more modest in my dress, I am almost shocked at some of the things I used to wear.

I have never shied away from anything simply because it was unusual. And really, gloves are not THAT unusual, even today. They’re especially nice in the winter, and they make you feel so ladylike.

I must tell you that I am sorry in that I misjudged you! Truce? You’re forgiveness if I may ask…

Only thing we really disagree on is tight pants in that it doesn’t bother me, yet I only wear pants riding and then, well loose ones aren’t comfortable. I like a “second skin” that is just there and doesnt get in the way.

I guess I have an issue with thinking of gloves as ladylike because I’ve really only worn them to protect my hands either from dirt or a heavy mouthed horse (trust me, if you have a 1000lb+ beast pulling on your hands, you don’t want it to happen on your bare skin ) so I think of them as an athletic thing. I don’t think of a helmet or crash vest (gotta love them foam blocks, so sexy…or not! ) as attractive/ladylike/pretty either.

As for winter, I don’t think it exists here in Orange County the way you (you as in everyone outside of Southern California) think of it. A friend of mine came out from Michigan and he laughed at how little it took for us to shiver and grab a heavy jacket. He would be walking around in a T-shirt, commenting on the nice weather (approx 65), and I’d be shaking in a ski jacket, much to his amusement. Him: You’re shaking! Me: I’m cold! Him: You don’t know cold… Me: Yeah, you’re right, but I feel cold! He apparently had this dialogue with many a girl from California until he gave up and just figured we were all nuts.

As for looking attractive to men…not a real priority. However, I don’t want to look unattractive. So while I might not be actively dressing to attract men, I don’t want them to think of me as an ugly person either.

 

[Lepanto]

Just wanted to post that if you google women’s jumper modesty, this thread is the 3rd site that comes up. Nice.

Not for long. This cat-fighting is going to get this thread locked real soon.

Ladies, ladies…can we please just cease all the personal attack comments and get back to (a somewhat light-hearted) discussion of the original topic of Women’s “Jumpers”: Yea or Nay ???

Sheesh…

 

[deb1]

Dirty pillows?!

I went to a conservative Catholic college. Some of my female friends wore jumpers. I didn’t think they were anything to be upset about. They aren’t particularly ‘fashionable’ but they aren’t hideous either. Fairly neutral I guess. Which is what some people are comfortable with.

^ What’s with the bat cowl on the black dress?!

I have a couple of jumpers that I wear because they are comfortable. I am not fat, nor am I ashamed of my shape, sometimes one just wants to dress comfortably.

I sincerely hope that no one on this thread would see me when I occasionally wear my denim jumper and make assumptions about how I feel about my body or my self esteem. I like both my body and I have enough self esteem, I promise.

 

[deb1]

As far as modesty, where people draw the line is an individual thing. It depends on individual values, the situation, etc. I know some ppl who will not wear anything shorter than ankle length, others (like myself) who will wear something a few inches above the knee, and everywhere in between. All of the above feel that they dress modestly.

.

the fact that modesty is based on individual values is something that many women forget. Because most females are social, we wrongly assume that a person who dresses differently then us is making a value judgement against us.

So take two women, one in a jumper, one in a modest, gothic looking outfit and put them in a room. Both women will assume that the other is judging them when neither one might be doing so. They both might be, in their own individual way, be doing their best to follow God and be modest. Who knows they might have a lot in common but their fear of judgement will cause them to in turn make false assumptions about one another.

 

[deb1]

Everytime this issue comes up I wonder why Catholic men aren’t subject to the same level of judgement as women are about their clothing.

I was victimized, and I will use the term victimized, by a small group of women at our traditional chapel a few years ago becuase I do not wear dresses-personal choice-my body was just not made for them. My clothing is clean, neat and I am ALWAYS modest. I wasn’t told that I would be going directly to Hell, but I was given every manner of lecture next to that. Finally, after several weeks of this treatment, I started to become convinced that they were right. I spent nearly a year trying to conform to their vision of what I should be wearing and have never been so miserable in my life. I went to my pastor, nearly in tears from the pressure of trying to “obey” and he was HORRIFIED. He started asking around and discovered that these 6 women were after others in the chapel as well-all women-and had actually driven people away. He ended up giving a sermon on the issue, and said that all issues of inappropriate dress were to go through him. He then went on to discuss modesty, pride and judging others.

Bottom line-if you feel God is calling you to dress a certain way-good for you. If you feel the need to lecture another about their choices, perhaps you should speak with your Pastor FIRST.

Isn’t it horrible how grown women can still be catty? The same girls that tortured one another in school will find a way to do so as adults.

I had the flip side of what happened to you, happen to me. As a young woman I dressed provactively. WHen I became a Christian, I had difficulty breaking away from this type of dress. I went through a period in which I felt called to wear more loose, longer dresses. I considered this my own private commitment. Going to the opposite extreme from where I was helped me tremendously learn to eventually be moderate

I did not though think that other women should copy me. Nor did I think that other women were less Christian for wearing pants. This period of dress for me was something that I felt called on to do.

One day a couple ladies from the church approached me and told me how they could wear anything that they wanted and still be modest. Um…okay…I didn’t think that they were immodest. They went on and on about how modest their tank tops were…okay, I don’t disagree…and that no one should judge them for wearing shorts in the summer. They didn’t have to wear dresses to be modest etc.

I felt horrible. THe last thing that I wanted was for my fellow Christian ladies to believe that I was passing some sort of judgement on them or for them to believe that I thought that they were immodest.

Oddly enough these same two ladies were among a group of women who chastised me for not being spiritual enough to attend Wednesday night service(I was Protestant at the time)

 

[blessedtoo]

Not for long. This cat-fighting is going to get this thread locked real soon.

Ladies, ladies…can we please just cease all the personal attack comments and get back to (a somewhat light-hearted) discussion of the original topic of Women’s “Jumpers”: Yea or Nay ???

Sheesh…

I am not “cat-fighting”. I am trying to clarify exactly what was said on this thread. I’ve been accused of judgementalism by an other Catholic and I don’t take that lightly.

 

[deb1]

In the renaissance, women would never dare show an ankle, but showing your breasts almost to the nipples in a tight bodice that gives you major cleavege…sure! To us, this is strange…for them it was their standard of desency. We have to go by the standard for our cluture in our time.

!

I think that showing cleavage had to do with social class because I’ve seen paintings of middle class women of that time period in which they were definitely covered up.

Sorry. I like reading about the Italian renaissance and looking at the artwork from that time period. Not trying to derail the thread.

 

[deb1]

http://www.shabbyapple.com/images/PRODUCT/medium/68.jpg

%between%

.

I like this dress. Where did you find the picture blessedtoo?

 

[blessedtoo]

I like this dress. Where did you find the picture blessedtoo?

Here ya go!
shabbyapple.com/t-apparel.aspx

 

[johnnydigit]

women look beautiful in jumpers, and girls look adorable. i admire the traditional and modest look very much. the focus is almost completely on the face, and it makes them shine. there is absolutely no need for me to see anything else. at the most, even a jumper will reveal the overall body type (slim/athletic/big). the fact that they are doing it out of love of God only multiplies their attractiveness.

outward signs don’t necessarily mean a person is holy, but they point to holiness.

 

[daughterofmary]

I can see where some jumpers are not very flattering. I wore some easter-egg colored jumpers for a year in high school. They were uniform. And while they were not the most flattering things I have ever worn, they were the most comfortable and practical things I ever wore. Quite modest too. I have taken up sewing lately though, and the first pattern my mom bought me was a pattern with three jumpers.

img218.imageshack.us/img218/5650/patternne5.jpg

The middle one looks really cute I think. And I am going to make it probably about three or four inches longer on the bottom, for my own comfort. It seems modest to me, too. The other two, I am not sure if I am going to do yet. The middle one is what I like the best. So, point is: jumpers can work, I think. And they are, hands down, the most comfortable things I have ever worn.

When it comes to modesty I like to look at the saints. “May the fashions of the world not be the model for our attire, but rather the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints…:” - Bishop Bernard Fellay

I am particuarlly thinking of St. Gemma. Here are some photos of her everyday dress:

img153.imageshack.us/img153/3076/stgemmaclothesxm6.jpg

img72.imageshack.us/img72/5134/stgemmaclothes2gq1.th.jpg

img218.imageshack.us/img218/5084/photogemmayl6.jpg

She wore the same type dress everyday, even on feasts and occasions, yet she is remembered as an absolutely beautiful young woman, despite her clothing choices. I think her clothing choices added to her beauty. The dress was plain in form and color and the hat she wore was the same. Yet she had an offer of marriage and many thought her very beautiful. She was modest and simple. Her dress was much like jumpers in that they usually are not always flattering to the form, and her dress certaintly was not. And I notice how plain her hair is done. Very plain, but yet she is so beautiful!

img153.imageshack.us/img153/1347/juanita18vn1.jpg

She wears a high colar, but if you notice it has a bit of embellishment. So, I take away that a little “jazz” is ok. And her hair is done in a way that is much like her day, but not extreme. Simply done. I think she is pretty too!

img218.imageshack.us/img218/8885/blalexandrinamariadecosat3.jpg

Bl. Alexandrina has a very simple hair style too, and a dress with a pattern on it. Not so plain in fabric. She is modest though and has a high color. She looks simple, modest, and pretty.

img218.imageshack.us/img218/1811/biografiavyu4.jpg

Bl. Victoria Diez is wearing earrings and a dress that has a colar not as high, but still just a couple fingers below the colar bone. Hair still simply done.

There are many more pictures, I am sure. I am finding it difficult to find one of a saint/bl. with their whole self in the picture. It is difficult to know how long their skirts/dresses were. Overall though I think from seeing the pictures that they dress simply and do not wear anything too tight of clingy. Basic, modesty guidelines I think I have already read spoken of on the thread so far. I have read that St. Padre Pio wanted all women who entered the confessional with him to wear skirts/dresses 8 inches below the knees.

I think the 'traditional modesty standards" that have been spoken of by some on the thread are these:

“Standards of Modesty in Dress
Imprimatur dated Sept. 24, 1956
‘A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper.’” - The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII
(taken from: catholicmodesty.com/Popesonmodesty.html)

I hope I do not offend anyone. What other people wear is not my buisness. I was just putting my little opinion into the conversation. One of my dearest friends and I, both believe in dressing modestly, but we have different “limits” so to say. We can respect that about each other and just appreciate the others’ desire to do what is pleasing to God. And so, that is how I feel about all who have posted on the thread so far. It is obvious to see that everyone wants to please God and recognizes a call for modesty in dress. I appreciate that.

 

[deb1]

Here ya go!
shabbyapple.com/t-apparel.aspx

thanks!!

 

[Biblioassistant]

I can’t find jumpers and I look really bad in them anyway. Most of the time in the summer, I wear capri pants or bermuda shorts. I have several knee length denim skirts for church, plus my all purpose, basic black dress for ceremonial occasions.

I’m not a fashionista.

 

[nannygirl]

RE: It is sad that we, as American women…don’t dress better than we do. I do believe that it is getting better, though. We used to dress very nice as a people…before the “War-Protest Era” of the 60’s and 70’s. Things have never been the same since. "til later!—B

I agree. I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s when women wore hats and gloves when they went out. I remember my mother taking me to a Tea at the local department store where everyone was dressed beautifully feminine with gloves. Europeans, especially the Italians, still dress very nicely every day from what I observed. If I could, I’d dress like they did at the turn of the 20th century- high-necked frilly long dress–soooo feminine!!!

 

[piouswoman]

I can see where some jumpers are not very flattering. I wore some easter-egg colored jumpers for a year in high school. They were uniform. And while they were not the most flattering things I have ever worn, they were the most comfortable and practical things I ever wore. Quite modest too. I have taken up sewing lately though, and the first pattern my mom bought me was a pattern with three jumpers.

img218.imageshack.us/img218/5650/patternne5.jpg

The middle one looks really cute I think. And I am going to make it probably about three or four inches longer on the bottom, for my own comfort. It seems modest to me, too. The other two, I am not sure if I am going to do yet. The middle one is what I like the best. So, point is: jumpers can work, I think. And they are, hands down, the most comfortable things I have ever worn.

When it comes to modesty I like to look at the saints. “May the fashions of the world not be the model for our attire, but rather the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints…:” - Bishop Bernard Fellay

I am particuarlly thinking of St. Gemma. Here are some photos of her everyday dress:

img153.imageshack.us/img153/3076/stgemmaclothesxm6.jpg

img72.imageshack.us/img72/5134/stgemmaclothes2gq1.th.jpg

img218.imageshack.us/img218/5084/photogemmayl6.jpg

She wore the same type dress everyday, even on feasts and occasions, yet she is remembered as an absolutely beautiful young woman, despite her clothing choices. I think her clothing choices added to her beauty. The dress was plain in form and color and the hat she wore was the same. Yet she had an offer of marriage and many thought her very beautiful. She was modest and simple. Her dress was much like jumpers in that they usually are not always flattering to the form, and her dress certaintly was not. And I notice how plain her hair is done. Very plain, but yet she is so beautiful!

img153.imageshack.us/img153/1347/juanita18vn1.jpg

She wears a high colar, but if you notice it has a bit of embellishment. So, I take away that a little “jazz” is ok. And her hair is done in a way that is much like her day, but not extreme. Simply done. I think she is pretty too!

img218.imageshack.us/img218/8885/blalexandrinamariadecosat3.jpg

Bl. Alexandrina has a very simple hair style too, and a dress with a pattern on it. Not so plain in fabric. She is modest though and has a high color. She looks simple, modest, and pretty.

img218.imageshack.us/img218/1811/biografiavyu4.jpg

Bl. Victoria Diez is wearing earrings and a dress that has a colar not as high, but still just a couple fingers below the colar bone. Hair still simply done.

There are many more pictures, I am sure. I am finding it difficult to find one of a saint/bl. with their whole self in the picture. It is difficult to know how long their skirts/dresses were. Overall though I think from seeing the pictures that they dress simply and do not wear anything too tight of clingy. Basic, modesty guidelines I think I have already read spoken of on the thread so far. I have read that St. Padre Pio wanted all women who entered the confessional with him to wear skirts/dresses 8 inches below the knees.

I think the 'traditional modesty standards" that have been spoken of by some on the thread are these:

“Standards of Modesty in Dress
Imprimatur dated Sept. 24, 1956
‘A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper.’” - The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII
(taken from: catholicmodesty.com/Popesonmodesty.html)

I hope I do not offend anyone. What other people wear is not my buisness. I was just putting my little opinion into the conversation. One of my dearest friends and I, both believe in dressing modestly, but we have different “limits” so to say. We can respect that about each other and just appreciate the others’ desire to do what is pleasing to God. And so, that is how I feel about all who have posted on the thread so far. It is obvious to see that everyone wants to please God and recognizes a call for modesty in dress. I appreciate that.

Thank you for your post…I agree with you. I have actually made the Simplicity jumper (the one in the middle). It is a very feminine jumper that covers well yet is fitted nicely and I also had the idea of lengthening it for more coverage and a bit more grown up look. Really, what most do not think about is that how one wears jumpers as in what shoes, tops, and accessories, can make a big difference. It is certainly not hard to dress modestly and yet with style, and while it is true that not all women have a knack for putting a stylish yet modest look together, so I also have a great appreciation and admiration for those women as well. Fashion isn’t the be all and the end all…it is the woman’s soul that counts, it is her example and her demeanor that define her as a dignified Catholic woman who puts God above worldliness.

 

[HashemEchad]

Actually, the now-stock photo on cnn.com of the mother and daughter, faces blurred, in their pink and purple dresses had me vaguely envious for a while. Those looked like some nice dresses! And hand sewn! Dang!

In the interest of full disclosure, I’m not a jumper fan, and one of the biggest blocks to a more modest bent to my wardrobe is the frumpy factor, but if someone sewed me one of those fancy dresses, I just might consider it.

In Orthodox Judaism, we also follow very strict rules of modest dress and behavior (called tznius). The rules are basically the same as for traditional Catholics and Mormons (no sheer fabrics; long sleeves, no low cut tops, no short skirts, etc). The one difference is married women must keep their hair covered at all times.

For some examples of traditionally Jewish modest dress, see:

tznius.com

As you can see, the clothing is not “frumpy”. In my years of involvement with the Orthodox Jewish community, I’ve noticed that the only women who look “frumpy” are the older, heavier-set ones. There is something about being overweight that adds to the “frumpy” appearance (FWIW, thought I’d mention it!)

Maybe its a coincidence, but I just happened to click on this thread as my 8 yr old daughter came out of her room (dojng cleaning for Passover), and asked me to donate one of her tops to the thrift shop.

She said, “It doesn’t fit me modestly anymore, and I don’t want anyone to think I am not modest”.

What with all the kids her age today wearing very revealing clothing with questionable slogans on them, I am SO proud of her for not being like that!

 

[piouswoman]

That is not what I meant and I am sorry that it came out that way.
What I had intended in my statement that any clothing on a woman that makes her look unbecoming (tight to “frumpy”, excluding jumpers) are always out of style.
Take a look at “What Not to Wear”. The clothes on there run the gammet from hooker wear to housecoats in public. That is what I was intending.

BTW- did you see the pic I posted of the jumper pattern? I am actually looking forward to wearing that sometime this week. Hope it is as cute on me as it looks in the pic

Oh, that’s alright. Misunderstandings happen. Yes, I went back and looked at the pattern you posted…its cute, and as I sew just about everything I make I am familiar with that pattern. What I like about it is that it is fitted through the waist and flares out nicely below. That gives it a feminine look which I like. I would lengthen it a bit and use the view with straps were I making it for myself!

 

[nannygirl]

“Standards of Modesty in Dress
Imprimatur dated Sept. 24, 1956
‘A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper.’” - The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII
(taken from: catholicmodesty.com/Popesonmodesty.html)

I hope I do not offend anyone. What other people wear is not my buisness. I was just putting my little opinion into the conversation. One of my dearest friends and I, both believe in dressing modestly, but we have different “limits” so to say. We can respect that about each other and just appreciate the others’ desire to do what is pleasing to God. And so, that is how I feel about all who have posted on the thread so far. It is obvious to see that everyone wants to please God and recognizes a call for modesty in dress. I appreciate that.

I am reminded of Melanie’s attitude toward Scarlett O’hara in the movie “Gone With the Wind”. Scarlett showed up at Melanie’s party in a “racy” dress, and everyone acted scandalized when they saw her, but sweet Melanie immediately walked up to her and warmly greeted her, not caring about her dress, but caring more about her soul. Come to think of it, I can’t even remember what Melanie wore, but I can still picture her face…a little charity goes a long way.
Thank you for this wonderful post. Those women are beautiful!