Women's "Jumpers": Yea or Nay

[CarrieH]

I have a problem that I’ve had for the last 7 years…I exercise…a LOT. So indoors, I have to wear workout clothes a lot (sport bra, bike shorts, etc)

Any suggestions?

Are culottes permitted in your tradition? I had a pair that I wore until they were unacceptably ratty, and if I could ever find them in a store again, I’d buy a lifetime supply. They were made of black rayon challis and hung so nicely that nobody could tell it wasn’t a skirt unless I took a very large step. They worked for bike riding – I’m tall enough that I didn’t have trouble with them getting caught in the gears, but I could easily have strapped them to my legs with elastic bands if this had been a problem. I like the looks of the skirlots here, although I haven’t ordered any yet.
myculottes.com/index.html

Hey, jumper-lovers out there, this website has a jumper page, too! I know there are some of you hiding out there!

I favor the big-and-baggy approach to gym wear. I wear yoga pants, but I wear sports bra covered by an oversized t-shirt that covers my heinie. Some of the outfits I see on women at the gym are downright scandalous. It’s a mixed gym, and I’m glad I’m old enough that the only ones giving me “the eye” are the old geezers in the cardiac rehab section! Eeeuwww!

 

[HashemEchad]

Are culottes permitted in your tradition? I had a pair that I wore until they were unacceptably ratty, and if I could ever find them in a store again, I’d buy a lifetime supply. They were made of black rayon challis and hung so nicely that nobody could tell it wasn’t a skirt unless I took a very large step. They worked for bike riding – I’m tall enough that I didn’t have trouble with them getting caught in the gears, but I could easily have strapped them to my legs with elastic bands if this had been a problem. I like the looks of the skirlots here, although I haven’t ordered any yet.
myculottes.com/index.html

Hey, jumper-lovers out there, this website has a jumper page, too! I know there are some of you hiding out there!

I favor the big-and-baggy approach to gym wear. I wear yoga pants, but I wear sports bra covered by an oversized t-shirt that covers my heinie. Some of the outfits I see on women at the gym are downright scandalous. It’s a mixed gym, and I’m glad I’m old enough that the only ones giving me “the eye” are the old geezers in the cardiac rehab section! Eeeuwww!

Thanks for the suggestion! I’d not thought of culottes, but you’re right!

I’m not sure whether they would be frowned upon or not, but I doubt anyone could tell except me anyway!

 

[Mamselle_Duroc]

I have to comment on the swimsuit issue. When I was a young teenager and first started to develop, modesty was something I was very concerned about. I went to extremes at times, but fortunately I had parents who helped me balance things out. For awhile I held the view that if a bathing suit would be immodest in the grocery store or calling a friend, it would be equally immodest on the beach or at the pool.

After seeing a quote from Love and Responsibility by the then-Karol Wojtyla, I realized that I was incorrect in my thinking. He says right out that the standards of modesty do change depending on the situation.

While we are on the subject of dress and its relevance to the problem of modesty and immodesty it is worth drawing attention to the functional significance of differences in attire. There are certain objective situations in which even total nudity of the body is not immodest, since the proper function of nakedness in this context is not to provoke a reaction to the person as an object for enjoyment, and in just the same way the functions of particular forms of attire may vary. Thus, the body may be partially bared for physical labour, for bathing, or for a medical examination. If then we wish to pass a moral judgement on particular forms of dress we have to start from the particular functions which they serve. When a person uses such a form of dress in accordance with its objective function we cannot claim to see anything immodest in it, even if it involves partial nudity. Whereas the use of such a costume outside its proper context is immodest, and is inevitably felt to be so. For example, there is nothing immodest about the use of a bathing costume at a bathing place, but to wear it in the street or while out for a walk is contrary to the dictates of modesty.

In short, a swimsuit might be immodest out in the street, but that does not equal that it is immodest in the context of swimming.

Regarding jumpers, I have to confess that my first thought on seeing that box type is that they look just like the baby dresses I sew. Two little rectangles for the bodice, two larger rectangles gathered up for the skirt. They’re cute on babies, and on girls up to a certain age, but on grown women…?

When we’re talking about traditional Catholic values, I feel that the frumpy boxy look may even be contrary to those values. In days past women took great care and pride in their appearance. The gloves and hats for a day in town from the 50’s were mentioned. Recently the completely careless look came into vogue. Women go out in public looking trashy… they don’t seem to take any pride in their appearance.

And, frankly, I sometimes wonder if the frumpy look is coming from the same mindset, but on the other extreme. A lack of care and pride in appearance.

I’m just trying to figure out where this comes from. I see good, devout Catholics who seem to have very rigid and puritanical views on modesty. Dietrich von Hildebrand talked about reactions, and I wonder if this applies here. Basically, to escape from one error, people sometimes swing to the other extreme, and fall into another error. Perhaps this rigid modesty is the reaction of pious Catholics to the distressing immodesty of today’s world. In trying to pull away from the immodest dressing, they swing to the other extreme, the rigid and puritanical views of modest dressing, and also fall into an error.

And the truth is in neither extreme, but above the two.

 

[Lepanto]

In short, a swimsuit might be immodest out in the street, but that does not equal that it is immodest in the context of swimming.

As I’ve said before, context does not matter for most men. If a woman is wearing a bikini in a bank we will look. If she is wearing it at the beach, we will look too. It’s the way we are wired, and maintaining custody of our eyes is a constant struggle.

I’m just trying to figure out where this comes from. I see good, devout Catholics who seem to have very rigid and puritanical views on modesty.

Much of the driving force behind the prarie school marm look that we see today comes from America’s Protestant background. It’s part of the Protestant worldview to strip away ornamentation and beauty because they are seen as evils of the material world (elements of Gnosticism). This perspective is subtle in today’s secular culture, but it’s still there.

Ever seen Protestant religious art? No you haven’t, because there isn’t any. It’s an aniconic mindset. What little Protestant art there is really is an aping of Catholic art.

I believe that ladies can be simultaneously attractive and modest. Attractiveness and modesty are not mutually exclusive. They actually are complementary.

 

[Mamselle_Duroc]

As I’ve said before, context does not matter for most men. If a woman is wearing a bikini in a bank we will look. If she is wearing it at the beach, we will look too. It’s the way we are wired, and maintaining custody of our eyes is a constant struggle.

Keep in mind, though, that I’m not referring to a bikini. I’m not sure that I can think of any context in which a bikini fits. A bikini is not necessarily, and, really, hardly practical, for swimming.

What I’m talking about is the idea that standards of modesty apply identically to every situation. One might say that for Mass attendance the skirt should reach the knee, and the sleeve reach the elbow. That’s fine and dandy, but the same standards shouldn’t be enforced for every situation. A woman shouldn’t be expected to have to wear a long-skirted, long-sleeved swimsuit to the beach. She shouldn’t be expected to have to wear a long skirt and long sleeves for jogging on a hot summer’s days. For the beach, a swimsuit (again, not referring to a bikini here) is appropriate; for jogging, a pair of shorts of a decent length, or track pants, and a short-sleeved or sleeveless shirt is appropriate.

I think my use of the word ‘standard’ is a little misguided, though. Standards of modesty should remain, but the application differs according to situation.

Much of the driving force behind the prarie school marm look that we see today comes from America’s Protestant background. It’s part of the Protestant worldview to strip away ornamentation and beauty because they are seen as evils of the material world (elements of Gnosticism). This perspective is subtle in today’s secular culture, but it’s still there.

I agree with you! I’m just not seeing how rigid rules are fitting into traditional Catholic values. When I encounter historical personages who have the strict outlook, they’re coming from a Protestant mindset. Those same Protestants often seem to have a problem with nudity in art, as well.

You know, whenever the rigid views on modesty come up, I can’t help but think of Marilla Cuthbert and the puffed sleeves.

Earlier on a poster shared some beautiful pictures of various saints in their garb. I thought I might bring up the example of St. Therese of Lisieux. Her mother, Venerable Zelie Martin (soon to be Blessed, I believe!), very much loved beautiful clothes. She was a lace-maker herself, in fact. While she always dressed herself and her children with modesty and taste, she never went the frumpy route. The girls dressed in outfits appropriate to the time, attractively fitted to their figures. It’s so much fun to read Zelie’s letters, and to see how much she delighted in dressing her daughters in pretty and attractive clothing.

I believe that ladies can be simultaneously attractive and modest. Attractiveness and modesty are not mutually exclusive. They actually are complementary.

Absolutely! I think some people have a problem with a woman looking stunning in general. While there’s a wrong way to turn heads, there’s a perfectly modest and ladylike way to do it. Audrey Hepburn was mentioned; Grace Kelly is another example. I know for my part that I love it when men of my acquaintance tell me how lovely I look. It’s perfectly innocent and decent. When my clothing is modest yet attractive, it allows men to appreciate my feminine beauty in an appropriate way.

It’s so distressing to see Catholics adopt the fear of beauty. Beauty does not equate immodesty, indecency, or vanity. A tasteful beauty is a tribute to the general beauty of God and His creation, and a woman should never be made to feel ashamed of it.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

OK, jumpers can be dumpy, but for crying out loud…asexual?

But maybe you’re right. There isn’t a man on the planet, transvestites included, who would be caught dead in one, save a comedian making a parody of dumpy dressing women. Those guys might wear a really bad jumper in a yechy fabric. But even the transvestites wouldn’t wear wear a jumper, not even on Halloween. (Of course, “jumper” and “sequins” aren’t really natural companions.)

But then, transvestites wouldn’t wear most of the stuff in a maternity catalog, either. I vote for

"Caution! This is womens’ wear, but is highly likely to be dumpy.
It may help you to stay out of Literal Hell,
but no guarantees will be made concerning Fashion Hell.
(Fat is not the worst fashion faux pas.)"

Actually, some transvestites do wear jumpers, such as this one.

 

[nannygirl]

I think some people have a problem with a woman looking stunning in general. While there’s a wrong way to turn heads, there’s a perfectly modest and ladylike way to do it. Audrey Hepburn was mentioned; Grace Kelly is another example. I know for my part that I love it when men of my acquaintance tell me how lovely I look. It’s perfectly innocent and decent. When my clothing is modest yet attractive, it allows men to appreciate my feminine beauty in an appropriate way.

It’s so distressing to see Catholics adopt the fear of beauty. Beauty does not equate immodesty, indecency, or vanity. A tasteful beauty is a tribute to the general beauty of God and His creation, and a woman should never be made to feel ashamed of it.

AMEN

 

[blessedtoo]

I have to comment on the swimsuit issue. When I was a young teenager and first started to develop, modesty was something I was very concerned about. I went to extremes at times, but fortunately I had parents who helped me balance things out. For awhile I held the view that if a bathing suit would be immodest in the grocery store or calling a friend, it would be equally immodest on the beach or at the pool.

After seeing a quote from Love and Responsibility by the then-Karol Wojtyla, I realized that I was incorrect in my thinking. He says right out that the standards of modesty do change depending on the situation.

In short, a swimsuit might be immodest out in the street, but that does not equal that it is immodest in the context of swimming.

Regarding jumpers, I have to confess that my first thought on seeing that box type is that they look just like the baby dresses I sew. Two little rectangles for the bodice, two larger rectangles gathered up for the skirt. They’re cute on babies, and on girls up to a certain age, but on grown women…?

When we’re talking about traditional Catholic values, I feel that the frumpy boxy look may even be contrary to those values. In days past women took great care and pride in their appearance. The gloves and hats for a day in town from the 50’s were mentioned. Recently the completely careless look came into vogue. Women go out in public looking trashy… they don’t seem to take any pride in their appearance.

And, frankly, I sometimes wonder if the frumpy look is coming from the same mindset, but on the other extreme. A lack of care and pride in appearance.

I’m just trying to figure out where this comes from. I see good, devout Catholics who seem to have very rigid and puritanical views on modesty. Dietrich von Hildebrand talked about reactions, and I wonder if this applies here. Basically, to escape from one error, people sometimes swing to the other extreme, and fall into another error. Perhaps this rigid modesty is the reaction of pious Catholics to the distressing immodesty of today’s world. In trying to pull away from the immodest dressing, they swing to the other extreme, the rigid and puritanical views of modest dressing, and also fall into an error.

And the truth is in neither extreme, but above the two.

You have so perfectly captured what I wanted to express that I will bow out of this thread now. In my efforts to make this very point, I allowed myself to get sidetracked by my utter shock at what I was reading. You seem to have a more measured approach that will not offend so have at it! God bless and ditto all the way!

 

[nannygirl]

I now have about 20 pieces of clothing in my “working wardrobe”. I feel that I dress better than ever, have better quality clothing - yet I have never have a wardrobe so small!

Same here. Those Italians really know how to dress! I have a very small wardrobe of some very classical, fine pieces- a few skirts, jackets and various tops and beautiful silk scarves with which to accent them. My favorite skirt is a great wool blend (the well- known “Lisa” skirt) which can be worn all year round. It was expensive, but I have worn it for years and it still looks brand new. (Yes, it has a slit in the back to the knee, but it has an accordian pleat which covers the opening.)

 

[Zooey]

Not sure now…I assumed she referred to the links in my sig line!

BTW I just went to Google and did a search on “modest clothing”…this might be the best way to go, since it includes Christian sites too:

google.com/search?hl=en&q=modest+clothing

I notice that the first site posted when I clicked on your link, is the excellent modestclothes.com/ I like that site, because ot has all kinds of modest clothing…both for those with stricter dressing codes, and for others, who simply want attractive, but still modest clothes.
It is one of my favorite sites on the 'net for “window shopping”!!

Thanks for the suggestion! I’d not thought of culottes, but you’re right!

I’m not sure whether they would be frowned upon or not, but I doubt anyone could tell except me anyway!

There is a lovely pattern for culottes here: candleonthehill.net/

But I wanted to say, that my grandmother used to clip my skirts with some kind of little clip things, when I was riding my bike as a kid. I don’t know the name, but they were great. They actually more or less made a skirt act like culottes for the time I was riding. But I never had to worry about getting entangled.
I wonder if they still make them? If so, they might be available from Mennonite sources. (Or from the ever amazing “Vermont Country Store”–link on the modest clothes site…They seem to be able to find everything!!)

 

[elt1956]

No, I wouldn’t of. By the way, this little story you present is **proof **of what dressing immodestly is. It is nothing more than a blatant desire for attention and trouble that women use for all of the wrong reasons, and it does nothing more than get the attention of men such as yourself. I am really surprised that you would mention this incident…a real mistake there, elt.

By the way, I am a woman. I wanted to snap her thong to wake her up as to the immodesty of her undress, but why try to explain it to you? You don’t understand the nuances of the English language. And that is a FACT. Shall we try Latin next??

 

[elt1956]

Actually, some transvestites do wear jumpers, such as this one.

You have the uniforms right, but the gym suits, you are waaaaaaaaaaay off, especially for the fifties. If I had worn one of those suits to gym class, I would have been tarred and feathered. We had bloomers beneath a skirt and had to kneel on the floor to prove the skirt was long enough to touch the hardwood. Only then could we play basketball. Enjoyed your websties. Thanks. Peace.

 

[elt1956]

Actually, some transvestites do wear jumpers, such as this one.

If you are feeling like a sinner because of what you are wearing, you may want to ask yourself why…maybe its because deep down in your mind you really do know it IS unacceptable and lacking in modesty.

The only way to win is not to play the game, mind game/s that is. :bowdown: So long.

 

[CarrieH]

You have the uniforms right, but the gym suits, you are waaaaaaaaaaay off, especially for the fifties.

I guess that depends on where you went to school Actually, that gym suit isn’t too different from what we had to wear back in the '60’s. Ours were a light blue jumpsuit-type thing which snapped up the front. The legs were fuller, almost a culotte-type thing, and they came down to the knee. They were beyond butt-ugly.

 

[piouswoman]

By the way, I am a woman. I wanted to snap her thong to wake her up as to the immodesty of her undress, but why try to explain it to you? You don’t understand the nuances of the English language. And that is a FACT. Shall we try Latin next??

What “nuances” are you referring to elt? Please be so kind as to explain…Funny, I should of known you were a woman by the tone of your posts, I was on the verge of asking why you,as a man, were taking such a feminist stand on women’s wear. Art thou a feminist, elt? Thy posts suggest so.

 

[blessedtoo]

What “nuances” are you referring to elt? Please be so kind as to explain…Funny, I should of known you were a woman by the tone of your posts, I was on the verge of asking why you,as a man, were taking such a feminist stand on women’s wear. Art thou a feminist, elt? Thy posts suggest so.

Please tell us you’re joking. A “feminist” stand? Boy, I thought you lost all credibility with your reactionary attack on Hashem but this is really beyond the pale.

You can tell a lot by a person’s screen name. Doest thou think thyself more pious than others?

 

[piouswoman]

Please tell us you’re joking. A “feminist” stand? Boy, I thought you lost all credibility with your reactionary attack on Hashem but this is really beyond the pale.

You can tell a lot by a person’s screen name. Doest thou think thyself more pious than others?

My reactionary attack on Hashem? Are you telling me that you have **no problem with these words **on a supposedly traditional Catholic section of a Catholic forum:

“Why Jews don’t accept Jesus”

Those words are offensive to me as they should be to any Catholic. I’d be willing to bet that if you posted offensive words on a Jewish forum you would be kicked sky high.

But in reality it should be no surprise to me…after all, modern Catholics today have tolerance for everyone but traditional Catholics. Frightening thought, don’t you agree? That should tell you something.

 

[HashemEchad]

My reactionary attack on Hashem? Are you telling me that you have **no problem with these words **on a supposedly traditional Catholic section of a Catholic forum:

“Why Jews don’t accept Jesus”

Those words are offensive to me as they should be to any Catholic. I’d be willing to bet that if you posted offensive words on a Jewish forum you would be kicked sky high.

But in reality it should be no surprise to me…after all, modern Catholics today have tolerance for everyone but traditional Catholics. Frightening thought, don’t you agree? That should tell you something.

AS I EXPLAINED PREVIOUSLY, I had numerous attempts to convert me on this forum, even though I only came here originally to find out the meaning of some Holy Week legends my late mother (a former Catholic) once told me about.

I made it clear I was happy in my Jewish faith, but some refused to take that for an answer, so to stop the constant derailing of threads with questions put to me about “why don’t you as a Jew believe in Jesus?”, I added those links to my sig line, SO PEOPLE COULD FIND OUT WITHOUT NEEDING TO INTERRUPT THREADS.

You know, you need to be careful. St Vincent Ferrer (a very Traditional Catholic who was not exactly a friend of the Jews on the spiritual level) said that Catholics who defame Jews need to be very cautious, because Jesus and Mary were Jewish and so were their people. He said that Catholics who defamed Jews would be just as damned as Jews (supposedly) are.

And yes, I can show you the quote too:

"They despise them because they were Jews. But they should not, for Jesus Christ was a Jew, and the Blessed Virgin was a Jewess before they were Christians.

It is a great sin to vilify them. This circumcised God is our God, and you will be as damned as will one who dies a Jew."

St Vincent Ferrer (quoted in “The Anguish of the Jews–23 Centuries of Antisemitism” by Fr. Edward Flannery, c 1964, Paulist Press)

 

[tcraig]

Same here. Those Italians really know how to dress! I have a very small wardrobe of some very classical, fine pieces- a few skirts, jackets and various tops and beautiful silk scarves with which to accent them. My favorite skirt is a great wool blend (the well- known “Lisa” skirt) which can be worn all year round. It was expensive, but I have worn it for years and it still looks brand new. (Yes, it has a slit in the back to the knee, but it has an accordian pleat which covers the opening.)

I’ve never heard of the “Lisa” skirt before … is [ a timeless classic. However I’d only wear a skirt that long with boots; normally I tend to wear skirts that hit just at the bend of the back of my knee.

I became a silk scarf convert after living in Italy … []this the style](http://www.amazon.com/Austin-Reed-AUSTIN-REED-SKIRT/dp/B0000AX43T/URL)and

 

[EasterJoy]

Actually, some transvestites do wear jumpers, such as this one.

Thank you for correcting my ignorance, but forgive me if I just believe you. There is such a thing as more information than I can handle.