Women's "Jumpers": Yea or Nay

[EasterJoy]

I used to live in Italy. I was very affected by this historically Catholic country. Italians, in my opinion, are the best dressed people in the world - much better than the French (who always get the attention), though the French also dress quite beautifully.

Italians have very small, very simple, classical wardrobes. No ankle-length “prairie dresses”; the women wear dresses/skirts and pants, but the pants are more in the style of the 1940’s (fitted and classic). I would see my neighbors wear the same item of clothing several times in a week, but it was always accessorized differently or worn with different clothing pieces.

I now have about 20 pieces of clothing in my “working wardrobe”. I feel that I dress better than ever, have better quality clothing - yet I have never have a wardrobe so small! But I am so grateful for my time in Italy, and the lessons that I learned there.

That is why I am always so suspicious about the “modest” clothing standards promoted in traditionalist circles in the U.S. - I feel that they are tainted by puritanism, and have little to do with true Catholic modesty.

Paul wrote that women should not wear “elaborate” hairstyles or “costly clothing”. He wrote that a woman’s primary adornment should be her good deeds; I think that had men’s clothing been in an ostentatious period, he might have included Christians in general in that statement.

If you look in the mirror and your thought is to compare yourself to others, of how stunning or holy or whatever others will think you are because of your dress choices, and not whether you give the impression to others that you care whether they find it pleasant or trying to look at you, or that you have an appreciation of the solemnity (or not) of the occasion you are sharing, then that attitude needs questioning, regardless of your skirt length. There is a degree to which a person might inappropriately call attention to himself or herself by extreme choices in clothing, whether that clothing is extremely revealing or extreme in some other direction.

I don’t think jumpers fall under that category. And really: let us not get our priorities mixed up here. Willful bad taste, if it is a sin at all, is a venial one. When it is an unconscious fault, we are bound to be as charitable as we can about it. We all have a few ugly things about us, but few of these things are positively chosen.

The only really serious sins we are talking about in this thread are lust and spiritual pride, one which a person’s clothing choices might provide an occasion for in another and the other which one’s dress might encourage in the self. If you are on a warpath to make other people better by making them more like you, that is a red flag. Not an indictment, but it should raise questions. If your opinions tempt you to correct those over whom you have no authority and judge those whom you have been given no mandate to judge–and this is as much if you think them “too pure” as “not pure enough”–then again: question that attitude.

If you really think that a look at your ankle or shoulder is such a huge temptation towards lust…well, again, examine that assumption. It does men no good to act as if they have no ability at all to exercise their own self-control. If you think their lust is not your problem: examine that attitude.

Some people will get cancer no matter what they do and some people will indulge the sin of lust no matter what you do. Let the risk assessment be reasonable, even when the risk in question is of a deadly variety. We have not been commanded to eliminate the risk of sin or deadly disease in the world. It is not possible. It is possible to ruin the joy, peace, and tranquility of our lives and those around us by giving ourselves either too responsibility for bad thing happening, as much so as if we give ourselves too little.

If you dress in such a way that you think yourself better than others, consider toning it down, whichever direction that takes you. After that, reserve your opinion for those, like those participating in this thread, who ask you for it. These are spiritual exercises which will do you no harm, and which may render your soul a profit.

PS By “you”, I meant readers in general, not “tcraig”!!! I think tcraig’s clothing standards sound modest in both appearance and financial impact!

 

[EasterJoy]

AS I EXPLAINED PREVIOUSLY, I had numerous attempts to convert me on this forum, even though I only came here originally to find out the meaning of some Holy Week legends my late mother (a former Catholic) once told me about.

I made it clear I was happy in my Jewish faith, but some refused to take that for an answer, so to stop the constant derailing of threads with questions put to me about “why don’t you as a Jew believe in Jesus?”, I added those links to my sig line, SO PEOPLE COULD FIND OUT WITHOUT NEEDING TO INTERRUPT THREADS.

Your private mailbox is full. May I suggest that you ask a moderator directly how you might best address this problem? I would think they would want you to feel you can visit CA without feeling harrassed for not having converted to Catholicism, so perhaps they might be of help. If nothing else, they will be able to explain what is and is not allowed conduct, so you can decide if the CA forum is ever going to be a place you can get comfortable.

 

[elt1956]

I guess that depends on where you went to school Actually, that gym suit isn’t too different from what we had to wear back in the '60’s. Ours were a light blue jumpsuit-type thing which snapped up the front. The legs were fuller, almost a culotte-type thing, and they came down to the knee. They were beyond butt-ugly.

Sounds like our gym suits were designed by the same designer. They were just “lovely”. Peace.

 

[HashemEchad]

Your private mailbox is full. May I suggest that you ask a moderator directly how you might best address this problem? I would think they would want you to feel you can visit CA without feeling harrassed for not having converted to Catholicism, so perhaps they might be of help. If nothing else, they will be able to explain what is and is not allowed conduct, so you can decide if the CA forum is ever going to be a place you can get comfortable.

Sorry for my private mailbox being full; CA doesn’t give you many PMs before they do that!

I decided to leave it that way, because it prevents some of the PMs I was also getting, trying to induce me to become Catholic.

Actually, the sig line had solved the problem for the most part, until piouswoman brought it up.

 

[piouswoman]

AS I EXPLAINED PREVIOUSLY, I had numerous attempts to convert me on this forum, even though I only came here originally to find out the meaning of some Holy Week legends my late mother (a former Catholic) once told me about.

I made it clear I was happy in my Jewish faith, but some refused to take that for an answer, so to stop the constant derailing of threads with questions put to me about “why don’t you as a Jew believe in Jesus?”, I added those links to my sig line, SO PEOPLE COULD FIND OUT WITHOUT NEEDING TO INTERRUPT THREADS.

You know, you need to be careful. St Vincent Ferrer (a very Traditional Catholic who was not exactly a friend of the Jews on the spiritual level) said that Catholics who defame Jews need to be very cautious, because Jesus and Mary were Jewish and so were their people. He said that Catholics who defamed Jews would be just as damned as Jews (supposedly) are.

And yes, I can show you the quote too:

"They despise them because they were Jews. But they should not, for Jesus Christ was a Jew, and the Blessed Virgin was a Jewess before they were Christians.

It is a great sin to vilify them. This circumcised God is our God, and you will be as damned as will one who dies a Jew."

St Vincent Ferrer (quoted in “The Anguish of the Jews–23 Centuries of Antisemitism” by Fr. Edward Flannery, c 1964, Paulist Press)

I said I didn’t like it, I am offended and it is scandalous to me. Please don’t address me any further with excuses. Thank you.

 

[RegNurseIn99]

I say “NAY” to the jumpers. I never wear skirts or dresses, except in very rare occasions and then only if I find something I really love. I have worn a skirt twice in the last five years. For Easter this year, I wore a pretty floral top that had a V-neck, 3/4 length sleeves, and made of jersey, blue and black “Pucci” print with a pair of black, flared-leg pants and 3 inch high heeled open-toed pumps. I was told by many people that I looked pretty and no one said I should cover-up! (Forgot to mention - I had gotten a pedicure and had bright red toenails!) I am a team member of our parish’s RCIA group and I also Lector.

Also, I am an RN and nearly EVERY nurse wears pants (scrubs) to work.

At home, I wear what I feel comfy in – usually a pair of jeans and a T-shirt. Yes - I wear shorts, but they are loose and only about 2 incehs above my knees. I wear tank tops, too.

I am 55 years old and not exactly thin. But my DH thinks I look nice and I dress to suit him. He would be the first to object if my dress was embarrassing or immodest.

But I guess I dress provocatively, according to what I am reading here. I will have to let DH know he is married to a strumpet!

Peace,
RegNurse

 

[laudamus_te]

AS I EXPLAINED PREVIOUSLY, I had numerous attempts to convert me on this forum, even though I only came here originally to find out the meaning of some Holy Week legends my late mother (a former Catholic) once told me about.

I made it clear I was happy in my Jewish faith, but some refused to take that for an answer, so to stop the constant derailing of threads with questions put to me about “why don’t you as a Jew believe in Jesus?”, I added those links to my sig line, SO PEOPLE COULD FIND OUT WITHOUT NEEDING TO INTERRUPT THREADS.

You know, you need to be careful. St Vincent Ferrer (a very Traditional Catholic who was not exactly a friend of the Jews on the spiritual level) said that Catholics who defame Jews need to be very cautious, because Jesus and Mary were Jewish and so were their people. He said that Catholics who defamed Jews would be just as damned as Jews (supposedly) are.

And yes, I can show you the quote too:

"They despise them because they were Jews. But they should not, for Jesus Christ was a Jew, and the Blessed Virgin was a Jewess before they were Christians.

It is a great sin to vilify them. This circumcised God is our God, and you will be as damned as will one who dies a Jew."

St Vincent Ferrer (quoted in “The Anguish of the Jews–23 Centuries of Antisemitism” by Fr. Edward Flannery, c 1964, Paulist Press)

I think you need to understand the difference between being offended by seeing pro-Jewish language on a Catholic site and speaking out about it, and hatred or “despising” the Jews as people. Surely you’ve heard of “love the sinner, hate the sin.” It is possible, as a Catholic, to “love the Jew, hate the Jewish religion.” I, too, am offended to see your taglines on a Catholic forum. I wonder how tolerant you would be, on a Jewish forum, to read “For the Jews, may God lift the veil from their hearts” as someone’s tagline? That said, I’ve really liked some of the things you’ve said here regarding modesty in orthodox Judaism. I don’t doubt that, were we to meet, we’d get along just fine. But I would never accept your religion or not be offended by your promotion of it.

Also, I find it interesting that in what I can only imagine is a lopsided “spirit of ecumenism” such signatures as yours are allowed, while any promotion of a certain traditional Catholic society is banned. Just my .02.

 

[piouswoman]

I think you need to understand the difference between being offended by seeing pro-Jewish language on a Catholic site and speaking out about it, and hatred or “despising” the Jews as people. Surely you’ve heard of “love the sinner, hate the sin.” It is possible, as a Catholic, to “love the Jew, hate the Jewish religion.” I, too, am offended to see your taglines on a Catholic forum. I wonder how tolerant you would be, on a Jewish forum, to read “For the Jews, may God lift the veil from their hearts” as someone’s tagline? That said, I’ve really liked some of the things you’ve said here regarding modesty in orthodox Judaism. I don’t doubt that, were we to meet, we’d get along just fine. But I would never accept your religion or not be offended by your promotion of it.

Also, I find it interesting that in what I can only imagine is a lopsided “spirit of ecumenism” such signatures as yours are allowed, while any promotion of a certain traditional Catholic society is banned. Just my .02.

Your two cents worth is golden, and I’ll match it with mine. I’m sick and tired of the diabolical disorientation and I don’t mind saying so. It would be nice if in the church today, tolerance meant everyone, but it doesn’t. That is how much they hate tradition.

 

[skatepixie]

While blindly accepting some liberal idea of moral relativism etc falls under false ecumenism, so does badgering people about why they haven’t converted. Yes, we are supposted to witness our faith to others, however, if we do so in a rude, pushy, unkind, or uncharitable manner (which sounds like it is what happened to Hashem) you must under stand that people will react to that, and it isn’t likely they would be happy.

While I can’t say that I like the content of her sig, I get why she put it up there, and I can’t say that I am offended by it. I disagree, and I disagree hugely, but I understand why she wants to defend what she believes in.

I also feel that she has made contributions to the board.

Hashem…I’m sorry if some posters have treated you poorly. You don’t deserve that.

 

[EasterJoy]

Actually, the sig line had solved the problem for the most part, until piouswoman brought it up.

She does do it because she cares about you, you know. She really, really wants to see you in eternal bliss. I hope that knowing that helps.

 

[Baltzer_Jacobo]

Someone had asked earlier if there was a type of “official” Catholic dress. I have seen, somewhere in recent years, a book from the 1950’s that showed “Catholic Dress” for women. It showed A DRESS! Apparently, it was either “official” or highly promoted.
The illustration showed a young woman, walking to Mass ( Missal in hand! ), wearing a just below the knee lenght shirtwaist dress. It had a drindal type skirt, and sleeves to the elbow, and buttoned up the front, from the waistline, I believe. I think that it said that it came in a rainbow of pastel colors, probably for spring.The neckline was V shaped and had a collar, and probably open to just two or three fingers below the collarbone.
There are alot of clothes out there that are modest and pretty without going overboard. Commonsense is needed most. I can recall some of my PS Gradeschool teachers (the older, heavier ones)in the 1950’s & 60’s, in very frumpy-looking grey suits that were modest but still not pretty, even for that time.
I go a FSSP apostolate Church for the TLM. I sometimes wear slacks…especially in the winter, under my coats. I always have my hair covered with a hat or pretty mantilla, I don’t wear sundresses in the summer, or anything sleeveless.Sometimes wear short sleeves … but wear a small sweater or jacket over it when in Mass, or Church, in general.
I have a fitted or semi-fitted jumper or two, which I like, but those are not the style of the ones that seem to be under-fire.Let’s be charitable to those who may need to wear such for reasons of size or health, and try to set good example ourselves by dressing modest and pretty!! ----B

 

[HashemEchad]

I think you need to understand the difference between being offended by seeing pro-Jewish language on a Catholic site and speaking out about it, and hatred or “despising” the Jews as people. Surely you’ve heard of “love the sinner, hate the sin.” It is possible, as a Catholic, to “love the Jew, hate the Jewish religion.” I, too, am offended to see your taglines on a Catholic forum. I wonder how tolerant you would be, on a Jewish forum, to read “For the Jews, may God lift the veil from their hearts” as someone’s tagline? That said, I’ve really liked some of the things you’ve said here regarding modesty in orthodox Judaism. I don’t doubt that, were we to meet, we’d get along just fine. But I would never accept your religion or not be offended by your promotion of it.

Also, I find it interesting that in what I can only imagine is a lopsided “spirit of ecumenism” such signatures as yours are allowed, while any promotion of a certain traditional Catholic society is banned. Just my .02.

If a Gentile were on a Jewish forum, and someone there tried to convert them to Judaism (highly unlikely, since we do not proselytize), I would feel that said Gentile would be fully justified in posting info in their sig line explaining why they do not believe in Judaism. It really does keep threads from being interrupted with off topic questions.

Incidentally, just so you know, I have defended TRADITIONAL Catholicism to both liberal Catholics and Jews (not to mention Protestants.)

Being a huge fan of both Gregorian chant and the Latin language, not to mention an admirer of traditional liturgy in general (as well as the fact that the only form of Catholicism I am really familiar with IS the pre-Vatican II form, due to half my family being Catholics who stopped going to Mass after “the changes”).

In a sense, I am perhaps the only Jew who is “on your side” in the Tridentine vs novus ordo debate. Maybe not for the same reasons you support Traditional Catholicism, but nonetheless…

 

[HashemEchad]

She does do it because she cares about you, you know. She really, really wants to see you in eternal bliss. I hope that knowing that helps.

I find that very hard to believe, due to her demeanor in speaking to me and about me. I have met a number of very kind, well-meaning Catholics and others since coming here, but when a person expresses their views toward me with hostility, anger and tension, I don’t get any feeling of “love” at all.

 

[Jo_Benedict]

Note:

This thread is closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.