women's role

[Kendy]

Hi all,

I was wondering if someone could tell me what is the RCC position on the role of women in marriage? I have spent a lot of time reading about evangelical complementarian and egalitarian wars, but this doesn’t seem to be such a hot toipc in the catholic church.

Kendy

 

[Agricola]

Try reading JPII’s apostolic letter on the Dignity and the Vocation of Women on the Occasion of the Marian Year, Mulieris Dignitatem.

Also, there is a letter here:Letter of John Paul II To Women.

Also, there is a book here: Pope John Paul II on The Genius of Women

Also, there is a lot of information in the books Theology of the Body and Love and Responsibility.

God bless,

Agricola

 

[Beaver]

Kendy:

Hi all,

I was wondering if someone could tell me what is the RCC position on the role of women in marriage? I have spent a lot of time reading about evangelical complementarian and egalitarian wars, but this doesn’t seem to be such a hot toipc in the catholic church.

Kendy

Same as the mans, get out of the middle.

 

[Kendy]

I pulled these two paragraphs from Mulieris Dignitatem to specifically discuss the role of women in marriage:

**The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife” (5:22-23). The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the “head” of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give “himself up for her” (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life. However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual.

The apostolic letters are addressed to people living in an environment marked by that same traditional way of thinking and acting. The “innovation” of Christ is a fact: it constitutes the unambiguous content of the evangelical message and is the result of the Redemption. However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ”, and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviour and customs. This is a call which from that time onwards, does not cease to challenge succeeding generations; it is a call which people have to accept ever anew. Saint Paul not only wrote: “In Christ Jesus… there is no more man or woman”, but also wrote: “There is no more slave or freeman”. Yet how many generations were needed for such a principle to be realized in the history of humanity through the abolition of slavery! And what is one to say of the many forms of slavery to which individuals and peoples are subjected, which have not yet disappeared from history?**

By mutual submission, does he mean then that the wife has no obligation to submit to her husband’s authority? Or does he mean that they submit in a different way: To use evangelical language, he submits by being a servant-leader, and she by, well, being submissive. And how does mutual submission work out practically?

Evangelicals spend a lot of time fussing about the husband having the last say, in essence, veto power. There is also the popular view that the husband sets the agenda for the family, and takes a leadership role in disciplining the children and guiding the family spiritually. On the other hand, proverbs 31 women work to “bring everything under their husbands headship.” Not just by submitting to what he insists on, but by searching his heart so that they are truly of mind. Of course, complementarian evangelicals would say that the woman is free to speak her mind, but when she disagrees, she should trust that God knew what he was doing in assigning the husband an authoritative position in the marriage and therefore, she must work to bring the household under his headship. What do catholics think about this?

Kendy

 

[Agricola]

I think the key to what is said in Mulieris Dignitatem is keeping Christ as the center of the married relationship. Marriage is not a battle of wits or a struggle for power. If it is, your marriage is disordered and you should work on reflecting more closely the love of Christ for his Church (or if it would better suit your understanding, the love within God Himself, which is the ultimate example of unity of mind).

I am not married, but my girlfriend and I are discerning the call to marriage seriously. Even now, though we are not married, we find ourselves submitting to each other out of love for each other, and for Christ. This love does not belittle us in our submission. Christian love is self-sacrificial, not self-satisfying.

This is what is meant by ‘mutual “submission”’. Yes, men and women have different roles in the family. Provision, protection, and such may be more proper to men, child-rearing and education and such may be more proper to women, but together they are one in all things.

Today, we are told constantly that we must fight for as much control over every part of our lives as we can, even (and sometimes especially) in our married lives. This doesn’t work. As Christ says: “a house devided against itself cannot stand” (Matthew 12:25). Neither can a marriage in which the husband and wife pit themselves one against the other in a struggle for power stand.

I hope this helps you.

God bless,

Agricola

 

[Kendy]

Agricola:

I think the key to what is said in Mulieris Dignitatem is keeping Christ as the center of the married relationship. Marriage is not a battle of wits or a struggle for power. If it is, your marriage is disordered and you should work on reflecting more closely the love of Christ for his Church (or if it would better suit your understanding, the love within God Himself, which is the ultimate example of unity of mind).

I am not married, but my girlfriend and I are discerning the call to marriage seriously. Even now, though we are not married, we find ourselves submitting to each other out of love for each other, and for Christ. This love does not belittle us in our submission. Christian love is self-sacrificial, not self-satisfying.

This is what is meant by ‘mutual “submission”’. Yes, men and women have different roles in the family. Provision, protection, and such may be more proper to men, child-rearing and education and such may be more proper to women, but together they are one in all things.

Today, we are told constantly that we must fight for as much control over every part of our lives as we can, even (and sometimes especially) in our married lives. This doesn’t work. As Christ says: “a house devided against itself cannot stand” (Matthew 12:25). Neither can a marriage in which the husband and wife pit themselves one against the other in a struggle for power stand.

I hope this helps you.

God bless,

Agricola

I agree, but the question is, or some might wonder, does mutual submission create disorder because people don’t understand their gender-specified roles? Would a woman working outside the home fir into this model? I realize I may be raising questions where you don’t perceive there to be a problem, but like I said, this is a big deal among evangelicals. In fact, it is sometimes the only difference between many denominations.

Kendy

 

[Agricola]

Kendy:

I agree, but the question is, or some might wonder, does mutual submission create disorder because people don’t understand their gender-specified roles? Would a woman working outside the home fir into this model? I realize I may be raising questions where you don’t perceive there to be a problem, but like I said, this is a big deal among evangelicals. In fact, it is sometimes the only difference between many denominations.

I wouldn’t say that the mutual submission creates the disorder, but the misunderstanding of the roles may. If a woman is working outside of the home out of necessity it is very different from a woman working outside of the home because she is proud and wants to prove that she is just as good or better at doing something that belongs traditionally to the man’s role. The former is well within the model of mutual submission. It is not done out of selfishness, but out of a willingness to give oneself.

I think that it takes true charity to give yourself to someone so completely that you give up even your will for the other’s sake. You’re right, it may be difficult for people to see things this way, but that’s what I see in the loving marriages around me. The willingness to give oneself completely, and center the relationship on Christ should be the goal of both the woman and the man.

I must admit to not knowing a great deal about the positions of evangelical denominations on the roles of men and women, but I figure that there is an ideal, regardless of the differences in opinion. I believe that ideal is taught by the Catholic Church as a must for a healthy marriage. There are roles proper to men and to women, but they are not to be selfishly coveted by either. Instead, both husband and wife should give each to the other fully in Christ, sacrificing their pride and their preferences out of love.

I will try to fulfill this ideal in my marriage to the day I die. Until I draw my dying breath I will be the servant of my wife, and give my life to her. I haven’t ever thought of my relationship with my girlfriend as a battle for power or supremacy, and I never intend to. Instead I will fight to bring her soul to heaven, which I understand to rightly be the primary goal for me in marriage.

God bless,

Agricola

 

[deb1]

Coming from a fundamentalist background, I have to admit that the lack of discussion on the role of men and women by Catholics has both confused and relieved me.

It has confused me, because conservative Protestants have more clearly defined rules for men and women. Many, not all, believe that the woman should remain home, and that the man is the leader to varying degrees of the household. I say to varying degrees because some believe in mutual submission, with the husband merely having the last word in an arguement. Others go so far as to believe that the woman should follow her husband exactly as she would follow Christ. I even read a book entitled, I think, What? Obey Him? The author advocated obeying the husband even if he caused her to sin, because the Lord would judge her husband not her.

One problem that I encountered was that my husband and I didn’t seem to fit the evangelical male/female idel. Although, I did try. My husband is laid back and perfectly happy for me to make most major decisions. Trying to make him more of a leader made us both miserable. We went from having a happy marriage to coming close to divorce. I was resentful and he became, as he has put it, a little contemptous of me. Loosing up what we believe our roles to be has helped both of us tremendously.

 

[mikew262]

IMO, it should be a 50/50 relationship in this day and age. Anything else, and your marriage will eventually have troubles.

 

[deb1]

Agricola:

I wouldn’t say that the mutual submission creates the disorder, but the misunderstanding of the roles may. If a woman is working outside of the home out of necessity it is very different from a woman working outside of the home because she is proud and wants to prove that she is just as good or better at doing something that belongs traditionally to the man’s role. The former is well within the model of mutual submission. It is not done out of selfishness, but out of a willingness to give oneself.

I

Do you believe that the only reason that a woman should work outside the home is when there is an economic neccessity? Although I believe that it is best for one parent, normally the mom, to stay home with the children, I don’t know if I want to put a hard and fast rule on people. What about when there are no children? Should the wife stay home even when the kids are going to school? There are some extremely conservative Christians who think that a woman should never work outside the home, but should go directly from her father’s home to her husband’s. What is your view on this?

 

[deb1]

mikew262:

IMO, it should be a 50/50 relationship in this day and age. Anything else, and your marriage will eventually have troubles.

Actually, it should be 100/100.

 

[AquinasXVI]

Kendy:

The entire list of suggestions of Agricola is top notch…also consult the catechism. Theology of the Body!!! I can’t tell you how much this has helped in our marriage. If you think you love your spouse now, wait till you learn the Theology of the Body. It will open up so many new avenues or conduits of loving each other, it’s truly a gift.

in XT.

 

[Sherlock]

I have to second what AquinasXVI says: learn about the Theology of the Body. There’s a marvelous resource available for doing just that, a ten- audio-CD course given by Christopher West available for the VERY good price of $3.90. Go to nakedwithoutshame.com, the website of the Gift Foundation. It’s so inexpensive you should buy several sets and give them away. This will be a revelation!

 

[AquinasXVI]

Sherlock and Agricola:

Is it just me or do you fellas notice that many and I mean a great percentage of the questions throughout this forum is answered by the Theology of the Body? I tend to agree with C. West or Weigel when they say that the TOB is so well put together that it is actually underlying every theme in the bible and Catholic theology. It seems to me that Thomistic philosophy has been dancing solo and after 700+ years it finally found its true dancing partner in the TOB (Christianized phenomenology). It’s so cool to look at a topic from the objective/realistic philosophy side(get blown away) then look at it again from the phenomenological side(and get blown away again!). I think this approach will be the catechistic style for the 3rd millenium.

Just some thoughts.

in XT.

 

[Sherlock]

Aquinas,

Yes, I agree. I love this sentence of yours: “It seems to me that Thomistic philosophy has been dancing solo and after 700+ years it finally found its true dancing partner in the TOB (Christianized phenomenology).” Great way to put it. Hmmmm…it’s so good I think you might have a book there, Aquinas. You’ll be the Christopher West of the dancing team of TOB and Thomism.

When I first became aware of the TOB, I viewed it as a tool for better understanding marriage; sexuality; etc. When I actually gained some acquaintance with it, I saw that it was far, far deeper than that and indeed provides the key to understanding EVERYTHING; a light switch suddenly being turned on. Weigel referred to it as a “time bomb”, I believe, and I don’t think that’s an overstatement.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Agricola:

…within the model of mutual submission. It is not done out of selfishness, but out of a willingness to give oneself.

I think that it takes true charity to give yourself to someone so completely that you give up even your will for the other’s sake…

The phrase “the gift of self” repeats over and over in Catholic teachings on marriage. This isn’t just the role of the wife, but of both spouses.

Agricola:

…Until I draw my dying breath I will be the servant of my wife, and give my life to her. I haven’t ever thought of my relationship with my girlfriend as a battle for power or supremacy, and I never intend to. Instead I will fight to bring her soul to heaven, which I understand to rightly be the primary goal for me in marriage.

That’s beautiful. A more comical wording I heard was something to the effect that the role of the marriage is to get both spouses to heaven, even if you have to bring your spouse kicking and screaming.

Related to other discussions with the original poster, Kendy, Catholics believe that we can lose our salvation. While we don’t “earn” our salvation, we must follow the moral laws that God expects of us so we don’t lose our salvation. Spouses should help hold each other up to God’s standards and help each other grow in holiness. So a wife should not “submit” to a husband if he asks her to do something contrary to God’s moral laws.

Our first obligation is to God, and next our spouse, (if we have a spouse.) On things that are within the moral laws, the married couple is free to decide between themselves how they wish to live out there marriage. There is nothing overtly immoral about the wife working; Proverbs 31 even praises a woman with skills who has successful dealings and earnings, who makes and sells things. But when raising young children, I find that practically speaking the traditional roles work best and it seems that God designed some of that into our bodies and natures. (For example, my husband can’t breast feed our baby.) Other couples may find something else works better for their family, and as long as they follow the moral laws, I don’t have a problem with their choices.

While the Catholic Church shares moral laws that must be followed, it doesn’t dictate the specifics of what to do within those laws. We can find true freedom to become the woman (or man) God intended us to be.

 

[scylla]

The Catholic Church doesn’t change in it’s teaching to trends or whims of society, so you will pretty much see the same teaching just presented in different ways. (hope that makes sense)

So even some of the old books help in understanding the view of the Church of the dignity of men and women.

Society degrades women in giving many the idea that to be better they should be like a man and pretty much vice versa. You will see men degraded and this is accepted as normal on tv, etc…

Each have their own dignity and should submit to each other to work together, complementing each other.
Christopher West does a pretty good job of explaining this as others have said.

This doesn’t seem to be a big problem in the Catholic Church I attend except for the cafeteria catholics.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[deb1]

Although I am very interested in the discussion on the Theology of the Body, I have to ask does this explain the lack of obsession with the whole wifely submission role that I used to see among Evangelicals and Fundamentalists?

It seems to be that Catholics have a somewhat less rigid view of the sexes then Evangelicals and Fundamentalists. Am I wrong?

I don’t see any threads on whether women should work or stay home, or how to be keepers of the home, or how to submit to your hubby. This isn’t being critical just curious. Catholics seem a little less concerned with these issues.

 

[Kendy]

Agricola:

I wouldn’t say that the mutual submission creates the disorder, but the misunderstanding of the roles may. If a woman is working outside of the home out of necessity it is very different from a woman working outside of the home because she is proud and wants to prove that she is just as good or better at doing something that belongs traditionally to the man’s role. The former is well within the model of mutual submission. It is not done out of selfishness, but out of a willingness to give oneself.

What if she wants to work outside the home because she is gifted and passionate about a particular work?

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

deb1:

Coming from a fundamentalist background, I have to admit that the lack of discussion on the role of men and women by Catholics has both confused and relieved me.

It has confused me, because conservative Protestants have more clearly defined rules for men and women. Many, not all, believe that the woman should remain home, and that the man is the leader to varying degrees of the household. I say to varying degrees because some believe in mutual submission, with the husband merely having the last word in an arguement. Others go so far as to believe that the woman should follow her husband exactly as she would follow Christ. I even read a book entitled, I think, What? Obey Him? The author advocated obeying the husband even if he caused her to sin, because the Lord would judge her husband not her.

One problem that I encountered was that my husband and I didn’t seem to fit the evangelical male/female idel. Although, I did try. My husband is laid back and perfectly happy for me to make most major decisions. Trying to make him more of a leader made us both miserable. We went from having a happy marriage to coming close to divorce. I was resentful and he became, as he has put it, a little contemptous of me. Loosing up what we believe our roles to be has helped both of us tremendously.

I am not married, but as evangelicals, I will say our community is pretty obsessed by this. I think obeying your husband if he asks you to sin is generally repudiated it. On the other hand, what happened in your marriage is what is often recommended by comp leaders. If your husband will not “lead,” you should not take initiatives on behalf of the family but wait in pray that he will fulfill this role.

Pastor Tony Evans said, if a woman is not submissive to her husband, every other thing godly she does is irrelevant. Unless, her husband knows that he is the head of their house, she’s a carnal woman. Don’t know if you know him, but he’s pretty famous. Has his own radio show, several books, a national outreach to public schools.

Kendy