Women's rolls in socity

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Hello. Thanks for the post. With all respect, I don’t think this topic would meet with much favor in the Non-Catholic portion of the forum either. I had just heard on the History Channel that Mary Magdalene’s role in Chruch History had been re-defined. Somehow, through the translation of the Bible from Greek? Coptic? the role Mary Magdelene played in Church History was skewed. This is what I have heard. “The fact that mention of her in the New Testament was placed next to the tale of the Prostitute and the Woman with the oil led people to believe the three were all the one and the same person.”🙂 Apparently the Church has redefined this. I just mentioned the Da Vinci Code as this was where I heard her role being questioned. So that is why I am asking. Thanks.
Then maybe there’s something about it in Catholic News.
 
I didn’t read the responses, but I did check out the website a bit. I do believe there are different roles, designed by God. But, I think all the website’s ideas are not the teachings of our Catholic Church. I don’t believe women should be priests, bishops, etc… but do believe they can be cantors, lectors, give out Communion, alter servers, etc… I also believe women are meant to be mothers as a priority, but they can also hold a job if their husband agrees. I believe through personal experience that women are better at some jobs and men are better at certain jobs…but the Church doesn’t teach that…that is my own thing 😉
 
I also believe women are meant to be mothers as a priority, but they can also hold a job if their husband agrees.
I also believe that men can post on message boards if their mothers or wives agree.
 
*I also believe men are meant to be fathers as a priority, but they can also hold a job if their wives agree. *
 
I also believe that men can post on message boards if their mothers or wives agree.
I don’t appreciate your response…remember this is a Christian forum and making fun of my response is not Christian. If you want to dispute my statement, and provide your own opinion, I welcome that. Your response is childish and does nothing for the thread.
 
*I also believe men are meant to be fathers as a priority, but they can also hold a job if their wives agree. *
I’m not sure if your statement is serious, but it sounds like another response to make fun of my statement. Please read my former response about making fun of posts.

I think I was genuinely misunderstood and both responses are frustrating…as well as unkind. I’m shocked and was hoping to find a serious Christian forum where this wouldn’t happen.
 
I don’t appreciate your response…
Shame that.
remember this is a Christian forum and making fun of my response is not Christian.
Not surprising, since I’m Jewish.
If you want to dispute my statement, and provide your own opinion, I welcome that.
I’d have thought that my opinion was quite clear from my earlier responses right here in this thread.
Your response is childish and does nothing for the thread.
Nothing childish at all, I think that the men here should show that they’ve got written permission from their mothers or wives before posting.

What’s wrong with that? Rather than turning the whole thing into some drama about your hurt feelings, why not explain to me why I’m wrong?
 
Ahhh, I get it. This is my last post in response to you. You are the kind of person who just wants to argue for the sake of arguing. I am not that kind of person, and have no desire to do so. My only desire is to help others and ask questions out of my own curiosity and/or spiritual journey. I’m new to the forum, so I did not know you were that kind of poster 🤷
 
Ahhh, I get it. This is my last post in response to you. You are the kind of person who just wants to argue for the sake of arguing. I am not that kind of person, and have no desire to do so. My only desire is to help others and ask questions out of my own curiosity and/or spiritual journey. I’m new to the forum, so I did not know you were that kind of poster 🤷
Perhaps you should have been more careful about which part of CAF you chose to post what you posted?

If you post contentious ideas on a number of the boards here, you’re likely to be challenged on them, I’m afraid!
 
I’m not sure if your statement is serious, but it sounds like another response to make fun of my statement. Please read my former response about making fun of posts.

I think I was genuinely misunderstood and both responses are frustrating…as well as unkind. I’m shocked and was hoping to find a serious Christian forum where this wouldn’t happen.
Nah, while it does appear to be a bit glib, I am serious about it. Should men not take their role as father as one of the first priorities? Should a husband not coordinate and align a job with the needs of his family? If able to work a job in most case can be essential to the well being of the family. At the same time the needs of a certain job may be in conflict with the family. That would make it necessary for both the husband and wife to be on the same page of making sure that both the financial needs and the needs of having a father and husband around, and likewise for the woman. Part of the problem I have with some of the feminist movement is it seems to point out the errors of men, and in turn wants to have the access to do them too.

As far as your point and mine, and it a reciprocal consideration. While you my take a point of view that the man is the head of the family, I would say I do, it does take some explanation of what that means. It would seem that any general that doesn’t listen to what his officers say, isn’t very bright or prudent, and depending on the circumstances would be in dereliction of duty, so too would any man take the head of the family idea, and think any whim he desires ought to be done. While being in charge always seems like a great fun thing, if you do it right it isn’t. To do it right, you need to take into consideration everyone. While the children may not give you the best direct feedback, you better make sure that your on the same page with your wife. If anything on many situations she may know more than you, and at the same time with other situations you will. Anything as big in your life as a job, should also go by her considerations, and the same is true for her and a job.
 
Nah, while it does appear to be a bit glib, I am serious about it. Should men not take their role as father as one of the first priorities? Should a husband not coordinate and align a job with the needs of his family? If able to work a job in most case can be essential to the well being of the family. At the same time the needs of a certain job may be in conflict with the family. That would make it necessary for both the husband and wife to be on the same page of making sure that both the financial needs and the needs of having a father and husband around, and likewise for the woman. Part of the problem I have with some of the feminist movement is it seems to point out the errors of men, and in turn wants to have the access to do them too.

As far as your point and mine, and it a reciprocal consideration. While you my take a point of view that the man is the head of the family, I would say I do, it does take some explanation of what that means. It would seem that any general that doesn’t listen to what his officers say, isn’t very bright or prudent, and depending on the circumstances would be in dereliction of duty, so too would any man take the head of the family idea, and think any whim he desires ought to be done. While being in charge always seems like a great fun thing, if you do it right it isn’t. To do it right, you need to take into consideration everyone. While the children may not give you the best direct feedback, you better make sure that your on the same page with your wife. If anything on many situations she may know more than you, and at the same time with other situations you will. Anything as big in your life as a job, should also go by her considerations, and the same is true for her and a job.
Oh, then I apologize for thinking you were making fun of my post. I agree men should make their role as a father priority. I also think it is necessary to include the children and wife in decision-making. A good man would do all these things and still make the final decision…his decision would be based on what is best for the entire family, not just his own selfish reasons. Being head of the house can be abused, and if that is the case, I don’t think a woman needs to live with his decisions…she should make her own. And, if his decisions are not driven by God, and her decision is, then she should go with what God desires, not her husband. That is how Christ set up marriage, and gave us an example while He lived. Hope this makes sense 🙂
 
I don’t appreciate your response…remember this is a Christian forum and making fun of my response is not Christian. If you want to dispute my statement, and provide your own opinion, I welcome that. Your response is childish and does nothing for the thread.
Hello there neslor. Do you believe your original statement to be “Christian”? In the very Early Church (before Popes and hieracrchy, male dominated of course),it is believed women were treated as equals. It is in patriarchal societies, of which ours is, that women are the ones who “must” perform the female role and be subservient to the male of the home. That is a "so called " “Christian” attitude promulgated by males throughout history, church history, included. A power struggle deemed to be necessary by men. .😦 You go jman507!
 
Hello there neslor. Do you believe your original statement to be “Christian”? In the very Early Church (before Popes and hieracrchy, male dominated of course),it is believed women were treated as equals. It is in patriarchal societies, of which ours is, that women are the ones who “must” perform the female role and be subservient to the male of the home. That is a "so called " “Christian” attitude promulgated by males throughout history, church history, included. A power struggle deemed to be necessary by men. .😦 You go jman507!
Why bother to say “patriarchal society?”

There’s no other kind, least not among humans. Save time and effort by just saying “society”. :rolleyes:

This is the most historically, theologically, and ecclesiologically illiterate thing I’ve read since…

You know what, I can’t remember.

But here’s a hint: outside the Gospels and the Fathers, there is no early Church. And the only reason for the deaconesses you will doubtless bring up, was…Greeks could not abide having male deacons wait upon women. So egalitarian!
 
Hello there neslor. Do you believe your original statement to be “Christian”? In the very Early Church (before Popes and hieracrchy, male dominated of course),it is believed women were treated as equals. It is in patriarchal societies, of which ours is, that women are the ones who “must” perform the female role and be subservient to the male of the home. That is a "so called " “Christian” attitude promulgated by males throughout history, church history, included. A power struggle deemed to be necessary by men. .😦 You go jman507!
Yes, my original statement is very much Christian. The Early Church you speak of was started by Christ; including a heirarchy of males!! It was never different from that. Our society did not change the Early Church…it was started by Jesus and built upon St. Peter, which the Pope is a successor. Women’s roles have always been the same since The Church began, and they were/are not meant to run the church. That is why they cannot be priests, deacons, bishops, etc… I’m not saying Jesus devalues women; on the contrary. He had women who followed Him, and He welcomed that. At the time, that would have been very radical for Jesus to walk with women. Jesus values women in a huge way, but the roles women hold are different than men, and always have been in The Church. That doesn’t mean he loves women less. He built The Church, including the heirarchy; He wanted the heirarchy and knew it was necessary. He had men lead because that is their role. Not sure where you get your info from about The Early Church :confused:
 
Why bother to say “patriarchal society?”

There’s no other kind, least not among humans. Save time and effort by just saying “society”. :rolleyes:

This is the most historically, theologically, and ecclesiologically illiterate thing I’ve read since…

You know what, I can’t remember.

But here’s a hint: outside the Gospels and the Fathers, there is no early Church. And the only reason for the deaconesses you will doubtless bring up, was…Greeks could not abide having male deacons wait upon women. So egalitarian!
And you know this how???:rolleyes:
 
And you know this how???:rolleyes:
Which, about patriarchy?

Well, off the top of my head I’m fairly well acquainted with Celtic, Roman, Greek, Norse, Slavic, Sumerian, Jewish, Egyptian, Indian, Persian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Navajo, Apache, Hopi, Aztec, Tlingit, Ojibwa, and Zulu cultures, and none of them aren’t patriarchal. So…yeah, I feel pretty good saying that.

As to the deaconesses, that’s the rather wide consensus of biblical and patristic scholars.

As to the Early Church…look at the time frame. Paul wrote maybe twenty years after the Crucifixion, and probably much less. Every single New Testament book was written and in its final form by the end of the First Century. When, exactly, is your mythical gender-equal Early Church supposed to have existed?
 
Which, about patriarchy?

Well, off the top of my head I’m fairly well acquainted with Celtic, Roman, Greek, Norse, Slavic, Sumerian, Jewish, Egyptian, Indian, Persian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Navajo, Apache, Hopi, Aztec, Tlingit, Ojibwa, and Zulu cultures, and none of them aren’t patriarchal. So…yeah, I feel pretty good saying that.

As to the deaconesses, that’s the rather wide consensus of biblical and patristic scholars.

As to the Early Church…look at the time frame. Paul wrote maybe twenty years after the Crucifixion, and probably much less. Every single New Testament book was written and in its final form by the end of the First Century. When, exactly, is your mythical gender-equal Early Church supposed to have existed?
Have you given thought to this?

• Mary and Martha were close friends of Jesus (Luke 10:38-39)
• Mary anointed Jesus prior to his death. (John 12:3)
• Many women lamented Jesus’ crucifixion (Luke 23:27-31 and John 19:25)
• Women were the first to visit Jesus’ tomb on Resurrection morning (Luke 23:55-24:1)
• Early church leaders responded positively to widows’ complaints (Acts 6:1-6)
• Dorcas was “abounding with deeds of kindness and charity” throughout her community. When Peter later raised her from the dead, many townspeople believed in Christ (Acts 9:36-42)
• The church gathered in Mary’s home to pray for Peter (Acts 12:12)
• Women gathered for worship at Philippi, where Paul spoke to them (Acts 16:13)
• Lydia was a successful businesswoman. She became a Christian and prevailed upon Paul and his colleagues to meet in her home (Acts 16:14-15)
• In Thessalonica " a number of the leading women" were responsive to Paul and Silas’ teaching (Acts 17:4)
• In Berea “many…believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women.” (Acts 17:12)
• Priscilla and Aquila, her husband, were partners in church work (Acts 18:2 and 18:19)
• Both Priscilla and Aquila corrected Apollo’s theology (Acts 18:26)
• Paul mention Phoebe as a “servant of the church… a helper of many and myself” (Romans 16:1)
• Paul calls Priscilla “a fellow worker” (Romans 16:3)
• “Chloe’s people” gave Paul information on the Corinthian problems (1 Corinthians. 1:11)
• Paul lets unmarried women “stay as they are” so they can serve the Lord and not be forced into marriage (1 Corinthians 7:28)
• Widows were given special attention, assistance and care (1 Timothy 5:3-6)

Jesus went against prevailing traditions and attitudes toward women. Men did not speak to women in public, did not allow them public prayer and certainly did not allow them to serve in worship services. Jesus spoke to women in public, such as the Samaritan woman at the well (John Chapter 4) and allowed women to become deaconesses. This is contrary to rabbinical trends (Women and World Religions, p 312). Jesus’ attitude toward women would have been depicted as being un-Jewish according to the standards at that time.
The fact that Jesus even conversed with women, going against the prevailing tradition of the time, must have been seen as an outrage. In the bible book of Luke the text validates the importance of women and their contribution to Jesus’ ministry and gives detailed descriptions of how Jesus interacted with them. If Jesus really did treat women as equals, listen to their opinions, taught them and loved them without judgment, women must have flocked to him. Luke commonly uses Jesus’ interaction with women to reveal his concept of Jesus’ character. Two specific examples include Jesus comforting the widow of Nain and having compassion on a prostitute, a practice unheard of in that society or in our own society. Do we have compassion on prostitutes? Do we see them as lonely, lost and exploited or do we look at them as drugged-out women who don’t deserve compassion or forgiveness? Jesus looked beyond externals to the constitution of the soul. In Luke 8:1-3 he includes a summary of the part women played in Jesus’ ministry. Accompanying him are numerous female disciples whom he has healed and who now support him and the male disciples “out of their own resources.
Also according to the Luke gospel, it appears that women were greatly supportive of Jesus in his ministry. In first Century Jerusalem, it was not common practice for a woman to support a man. It isn’t common practice today. It goes against social mores, yet Jesus allowed these women to support him in his work so he could be free about “his Father’s business.” “Unlike his contemporaries, Jesus was not derogatory about women’s nature, ability or religious capacities.” Both women and men came into Jesus’ vision as individual people who don’t have the burden of stereotype. We see Jesus dealing with a woman personally, intimately and against the grain of prevailing male-female relations and boundaries.

Luke also records that Paul converted several “Greek women in high standing” in Macedonia. (Acts 16:14, 17:4) It may be relevant that in Hellenistic times Macedonia was famous for producing aristocratic and royal ladies of outstanding vigor, from Olympia, mother of Alexander the Great, to Cleopatra VII last of the great rulers of Egypt. For early Christian women, economic status significantly shaped the ways they could participate in Christian Communities.
 
Which, about patriarchy?

Well, off the top of my head I’m fairly well acquainted with Celtic, Roman, Greek, Norse, Slavic, Sumerian, Jewish, Egyptian, Indian, Persian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Navajo, Apache, Hopi, Aztec, Tlingit, Ojibwa, and Zulu cultures, and none of them aren’t patriarchal. So…yeah, I feel pretty good saying that.

As to the deaconesses, that’s the rather wide consensus of biblical and patristic scholars.

As to the Early Church…look at the time frame. Paul wrote maybe twenty years after the Crucifixion, and probably much less. Every single New Testament book was written and in its final form by the end of the First Century. When, exactly, is your mythical gender-equal Early Church supposed to have existed?
Have you given thought to this?

• Mary and Martha were close friends of Jesus (Luke 10:38-39)
• Mary anointed Jesus prior to his death. (John 12:3)
• Many women lamented Jesus’ crucifixion (Luke 23:27-31 and John 19:25)
• Women were the first to visit Jesus’ tomb on Resurrection morning (Luke 23:55-24:1)
• Early church leaders responded positively to widows’ complaints (Acts 6:1-6)
• Dorcas was “abounding with deeds of kindness and charity” throughout her community. When Peter later raised her from the dead, many townspeople believed in Christ (Acts 9:36-42)
• The church gathered in Mary’s home to pray for Peter (Acts 12:12)
• Women gathered for worship at Philippi, where Paul spoke to them (Acts 16:13)
• Lydia was a successful businesswoman. She became a Christian and prevailed upon Paul and his colleagues to meet in her home (Acts 16:14-15)
• In Thessalonica " a number of the leading women" were responsive to Paul and Silas’ teaching (Acts 17:4)
• In Berea “many…believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women.” (Acts 17:12)
• Priscilla and Aquila, her husband, were partners in church work (Acts 18:2 and 18:19)
• Both Priscilla and Aquila corrected Apollo’s theology (Acts 18:26)
• Paul mention Phoebe as a “servant of the church… a helper of many and myself” (Romans 16:1)
• Paul calls Priscilla “a fellow worker” (Romans 16:3)
• “Chloe’s people” gave Paul information on the Corinthian problems (1 Corinthians. 1:11)
• Paul lets unmarried women “stay as they are” so they can serve the Lord and not be forced into marriage (1 Corinthians 7:28)
• Widows were given special attention, assistance and care (1 Timothy 5:3-6)

Jesus went against prevailing traditions and attitudes toward women. Men did not speak to women in public, did not allow them public prayer and certainly did not allow them to serve in worship services. Jesus spoke to women in public, such as the Samaritan woman at the well (John Chapter 4) and allowed women to become deaconesses. This is contrary to rabbinical trends (Women and World Religions, p 312). Jesus’ attitude toward women would have been depicted as being un-Jewish according to the standards at that time.
The fact that Jesus even conversed with women, going against the prevailing tradition of the time, must have been seen as an outrage. In the bible book of Luke the text validates the importance of women and their contribution to Jesus’ ministry and gives detailed descriptions of how Jesus interacted with them. If Jesus really did treat women as equals, listen to their opinions, taught them and loved them without judgment, women must have flocked to him. Luke commonly uses Jesus’ interaction with women to reveal his concept of Jesus’ character. Two specific examples include Jesus comforting the widow of Nain and having compassion on a prostitute, a practice unheard of in that society or in our own society. Do we have compassion on prostitutes? Do we see them as lonely, lost and exploited or do we look at them as drugged-out women who don’t deserve compassion or forgiveness? Jesus looked beyond externals to the constitution of the soul. In Luke 8:1-3 he includes a summary of the part women played in Jesus’ ministry. Accompanying him are numerous female disciples whom he has healed and who now support him and the male disciples “out of their own resources.
Also according to the Luke gospel, it appears that women were greatly supportive of Jesus in his ministry. In first Century Jerusalem, it was not common practice for a woman to support a man. It isn’t common practice today. It goes against social mores, yet Jesus allowed these women to support him in his work so he could be free about “his Father’s business.” “Unlike his contemporaries, Jesus was not derogatory about women’s nature, ability or religious capacities.” Both women and men came into Jesus’ vision as individual people who don’t have the burden of stereotype. We see Jesus dealing with a woman personally, intimately and against the grain of prevailing male-female relations and boundaries.

Luke also records that Paul converted several “Greek women in high standing” in Macedonia. (Acts 16:14, 17:4) It may be relevant that in Hellenistic times Macedonia was famous for producing aristocratic and royal ladies of outstanding vigor, from Olympia, mother of Alexander the Great, to Cleopatra VII last of the great rulers of Egypt. For early Christian women, economic status significantly shaped the ways they could participate in Christian Communities.
 
Which, about patriarchy?

Well, off the top of my head I’m fairly well acquainted with Celtic, Roman, Greek, Norse, Slavic, Sumerian, Jewish, Egyptian, Indian, Persian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Navajo, Apache, Hopi, Aztec, Tlingit, Ojibwa, and Zulu cultures, and none of them aren’t patriarchal. So…yeah, I feel pretty good saying that.

As to the deaconesses, that’s the rather wide consensus of biblical and patristic scholars.

As to the Early Church…look at the time frame. Paul wrote maybe twenty years after the Crucifixion, and probably much less. Every single New Testament book was written and in its final form by the end of the First Century. When, exactly, is your mythical gender-equal Early Church supposed to have existed?
What about the Council of Nicea 325. A lot of books were thrown out and burned, so we will never really know what and who the early Church consisted of. History is always written by the dominant culture.:eek:
 
Which, about patriarchy?

Well, off the top of my head I’m fairly well acquainted with Celtic, Roman, Greek, Norse, Slavic, Sumerian, Jewish, Egyptian, Indian, Persian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Navajo, Apache, Hopi, Aztec, Tlingit, Ojibwa, and Zulu cultures, and none of them aren’t patriarchal. So…yeah, I feel pretty good saying that.

As to the deaconesses, that’s the rather wide consensus of biblical and patristic scholars.

As to the Early Church…look at the time frame. Paul wrote maybe twenty years after the Crucifixion, and probably much less. Every single New Testament book was written and in its final form by the end of the First Century. When, exactly, is your mythical gender-equal Early Church supposed to have existed?
And you know this how???:rolleyes:
Your quote:
"There’s no other kind, least not among humans. Save time and effort by just saying “society”.

Although I have no expertise in the following as some appear to have, what about:

Unique Matriarch Society Documented in New Book Anthropologist Pegge Reeves Sanday.
“Today, four million Minangkabau, one of the largest ethnic groups in Indonesia, live in the highlands of the province of West Sumatra. Their society, Dr. Sanday discovered, is founded on the coexistence of matrilineal custom and a nature-based philosophy called adat.”
“Neither male nor female rule is possible because of the Minangkabau belief that decision-making should be by consensus,”

The Nagovisi
The Nagovisi are one of three tribes of South Bougainville, a large tropical island west of New Guinea and north of Australia

The Khasi and the Garo Live of the Meghalaya state in North-Eastern India

The Machiguenga
Orna and Allen Johnson have studied the Machiguenga people of Peru, who live in the rainforest east of Cuzco, and speak an Arawakan language (11,000 speakers).

Navajo culture, which is matriarchal, gives women a sense of power and independence." “In Navajo religion and culture, there is an emphasis on how you relate to everything around you. Everything has to be measured, weighed and harmonious. We call it nizhoni - walking in beauty.” Dr Lori Cupp

The Pueblo, Hopi and Zuni
These societies are characterized by high status and economic independence of women, and matrilineal and matrilocal residence.

North America: The Iroquois and Huron.
The Iroquois consisted of five groups whose own collective name was Haudenosaunee (= the Longhouse). “In each clan, each individual and distinct matrilineage ohwachira has one person who acts as representative for it. The women choose them and are often in this position themselves.” The bestowal of an office was not irrevocable; the women retained the right to replace a leader who failed to meet their expectations. One of the matrons in each ohwachira presided over her kin group and with counterparts from other longhouses constituted the female leadership of a clan segment.

Canada: Innu (Montagnais)
The Innu of St. Lawrence Valley who were called Montagnais-Naskapi by the missionaries caused head-aches to the Jesuits. Let brother Fr. Paul Le Jeune report of his troubles: “the women have great power… A man may promise you something and if he does not keep his promise, he thinks he is sufficiently excused when he tells you that his wife did not wish him to do it.”

North America: Cherokee
The Cherokee were matrilineal with a complex society. Cherokee women had many rights and privileges other than domestic duties. Cherokee women had many rights and privileges other than domestic duties. Not only did married women own property, such as homes, horses, cattle and fields of growing crops and fruit trees, but they also participated in both the fighting of wars and the Council of War, and sat with the Civil Council of Peace. Lineage was traced through the women’s clan.

Mexico: Tehuantepec Zapotec
The Handbook of Middle American Indians, vol 7 refers to “the notorious power of isthmus Zapotec women” who call themselves Tehuanas.

So should I not differentiate between the Patriarchal/Matriarchal societies.
 
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