Wondering about a priest

[PizzatheHut]

I was talking with my priest today before mass. I shared with him my intrest in the old latin mass. He told me about a church in my parish that offers it once a month, then suggested I might try another church near by my city of Charlotte that isnt in full communion with Rome but have valid sacrements. He told me they regected the 2nd Vatican Council and only practice the old mass and I might enjoy it. My first response was their not in full communion with Rome?!!. Are they excommunicated? He explained that they were at one time but here recently their excommunication was lifted. I didnt question any further about this group but left kind of confused. Why would my preist lead me to a church that rejects the 2nd Vatican Council. Aren’t all of the church councils under the prompting and guidence of the Holy Spirit and not subject to error? So I geuss my question is do you think it was appropriate for my priest to reccommend this church to me?

 

[Cristiano]

You expressed a interest in the TLM. He simply told you where to find it and he gave you a heads up on who they are. I do not see anything wrong with that. If I were to ask my pastor where to find a Jewish orthodox temple in order to learn more about their rituals, I am quite sure that he would tell me where to go.
I do not see him doing anything wrong, he gave you a warning on who is celebrating the TLM and now it is up to you to make sure that you follow Rome. If you have questions or doubts go back to him and talk.

 

[Cluny]

It sounds to me what he’s talking about is a chapel under the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX for short).

I would avoid going there for now until the SSPX is fully restored to regular communion with the Catholic Church. Please God, that will not be too much longer.

 

[Joe_5859]

I wasn’t there so I can’t say for sure, but from the way you have relayed the story, I would say it was not appropriate for the priest to make such a reccomendation. Hwe was likely refering to the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX). The excommunication that was lifted was that of the four bishops who lead this group. They were originally excommunicated because SSPX’s founder (an archbishop who has since passed on) ordained them illicitly without the Vatican’s permission. So, the excommunication has been lifted, but the group as a whole still has not been regularized. Thus, they celebrate Mass validly, but illicitly. I have to wonder why a priest would point you in that direction.

Giving this priest the benefit of the doubt, though, perhaps he was just trying to be thorough in letting you know where you can find a valid Mass celebrated according to the old form. I don’t think it was wise to suggest it as it (as evident in your case) can easily lead to confusion. But he probably meant well.

 

[saskatoon]

He is probably referring to as SSPX chapel, there is one in Charlotte. I think the best thing for you to do regarding questions about SSPX is to view their website and judge for yourself. SSPX.org. More people should do that to make a more informed decision. You can email them with any specific questions you may have. Their masses and chapels (at least the ones I’ve been to) are beautiful!!

Yes, Archbishop Lefebve was excommunicated,by JPll, and yes they are still not in full communion with Rome, but the reasons for this need to be investigated further. Lefebve refused to conform with the new, modern church. He knew the problems that this was going to cause; not only for him, but also for the faithful. He ordained bishops, (whose excommunication was recently lifted), so they could ordain priests who wanted to say the Tridentine mass and follow tradition. Lefebve was excommunicated, but he was no defrocked. He was still a bishop and could still exercise that, even though Rome did not want him. His excommunication was political. He wasn’t trying to change church teaching like Luther, he was trying to preserve the church. SSPX is still not in full communion with Rome because Rome still wants them to compromise their beliefs and customs. The argument is Lefebve was excommunicated for refusing to conform, for wanting to preserve the church as it had been since the Council of Trent, and uphold the teachings of the church. Is his excommunication really valid? We have many bishops who do not follow the teachings of the church, by supporting abortion and homosexuality, (Milwaukee had one that did this, it was not Dolan, he was good) yet they have not been excommunicated. Here was a bishop who went against the grain to preserve the traditions of the church and he was excommunicated, interesting.

People who advise not going to a SSPX chapel are most likely doing it because of what they have been told but may not know the reasons. Plus, with the remaining bishops excommunication being lifted, are they still illicit? (though I’m not saying they ever were, it was just a point for argument)

SSPX has something going for them. They have 50 seminarians right now and will be ordaining 6 of them as priests in May 2010!!! :extrahappy: And that is only for the US district seminary in Winona, MN. I don’t know what the numbers are for their seminaries in Switzerland or Australia. The Milwaukee archdiocese usually has 1-2 seminarians for ordination.

:takethat:

 

[Joe_5859]

Here was a bishop who went against the grain to preserve the traditions of the church and he was excommunicated, interesting.

You’re right, Lefebvre’s excommunication had nothing to do with doctrine. It had to do with the fact that he ordained four bishops in spite of the fact that he was asked not to and warned that he would be excommunicated if he proceeded. I believe that’s called insubordination, and I don’t think that’s a desireable trait among clergy.

It certainly does seem easier to get excommunicated for juridical issues rather than doctrinal ones. I guess it’s easier to pin down. But simply because we feel that other bishops may have been more deserving of an excommunication does not mean that Lefebvre’s excommunication wasn’t warranted. It was.

People who advise not going to a SSPX chapel are most likely doing it because of what they have been told but may not know the reasons. Plus, with the remaining bishops excommunication being lifted, are they still illicit? (though I’m not saying they ever were, it was just a point for argument)

I know the reasons. And I would still recommend against going there. The liturgies may be gorgeous, the priests may be wonderful men of God, but if a group is not in full communion with the Holy See, one has to ask the obvious question “Why not?”

 

[YADA]

I was talking with my priest today before mass. I shared with him my intrest in the old latin mass. He told me about a church in my parish that offers it once a month, then suggested I might try another church near by my city of Charlotte that isnt in full communion with Rome but have valid sacrements. He told me they regected the 2nd Vatican Council and only practice the old mass and I might enjoy it. My first response was their not in full communion with Rome?!!. Are they excommunicated? He explained that they were at one time but here recently their excommunication was lifted. I didnt question any further about this group but left kind of confused. Why would my preist lead me to a church that rejects the 2nd Vatican Council. Aren’t all of the church councils under the prompting and guidence of the Holy Spirit and not subject to error? So I geuss my question is do you think it was appropriate for my priest to reccommend this church to me?

Does your parish really have more then one church? If you have a church in your parish [but I am really thinking this is diocese] that offers a EF - why would you just not attend it [the first church mentioned by the priest] to satisfy your curiosity?

What prompted the second offering by the priest? Was it because that Parish that offered the EF Mass was at some distance form your location? You needed the EF offered closer?

IF THAT IS THE CASE THEN >>>>> Was the priest only offering information on where you could attend a Mass in the old rite … near to your location [and I agree that this seems to be SSPX church] … I can only guess that he was not encouraging you to join this group or to partake of the Sacramental life there but only to observe the liturgy … in order that you satisfy your interest in a historical form of the liturgy.

Those are the quesitons I have …Since you only recorded part of the conversation and what is reported seems some what confused … I really find it hard to believe that a priest was recommending that you fully participate in the sacraments at this church or that you change affliation to SSPX …

After all - I can attend church services with my Protestant family, go to Protestant funerals etc … and participate as fully as my Catholic faith allows … join in prayer and song … I do not use this attendance as a substitute for attending Mass, nor do I partake of Communion … but I can listen to the Scriptures and sermon, pray and sing … .similarly, at every Mass we have non-catholics who participate with us as fully as their faith allows … they sing and pray with us … they do not participate in the Eucharist … we call that fellowship and hospitality, finding common ground …

Perhaps you should make an appointment with your priest and explain to him how you understood his comments and ask for clarificaiton … this could be good for both of you … you so that you clearly understand his recommendation [with properly used words with definitions - like diocese, parish] and he can understand how his message was recieved and the confusion and concern it caused … he may choose his words differently or take steps to ensure that people understand the context of what he says to them more fully …

 

[Zea_mays]

if you live in charlotte, go here. EF sunday once a month, EFon wednesday night al month.

stannsparish.org/masstimes.html

 

[Joe_5859]

Does your parish really have more then one church? If you have a church in your parish [but I am really thinking this is diocese] that offers a EF - why would you just not attend it [the first church mentioned by the priest] to satisfy your curiosity?

What prompted the second offering by the priest? Was it because that Parish that offered the EF Mass was at some distance form your location? You needed the EF offered closer?

IF THAT IS THE CASE THEN >>>>> Was the priest only offering information on where you could attend a Mass in the old rite … near to your location [and I agree that this seems to be SSPX church] … I can only guess that he was not encouraging you to join this group or to partake of the Sacramental life there but only to observe the liturgy … in order that you satisfy your interest in a historical form of the liturgy.

Those are all good questions. That seems more likely to me than a priest giving the go ahead to join the local SSPX congregation.

 

[PizzatheHut]

Yeah I did mean diocese not parish. I only joined the church 2 Easters ago so still getting familar with the terms. I get them mixed up. One of the reasons I fell in love with the chruch amongst many was how beautiful the Catholic mass was. The problem with that assumption was the only Catholic mass I had seen until I joined the church was on EWTN. EWTN was one of the main reasons why I converted by the way. So I was a liitle disapointed when I found out their aren’t any masses like that in Charlotte. The Catholic mass is still beautiful by the way. So I setteled on the Catholic church closest to my home. Their are many things there I could do without like only altar girls, hand holding, guitar music and even a keyboard once when they fused the spanish mass with the english mass. I could go on and on. I left the Baptist faith to get away from those hippy love in type services. What can you do. But ive still been faithfully attending. Got to take what your given in life. Anyway the other church that offers the Tridentine mass only offers it once a month and is kind of far away. Ive attended most of the Catholic churches in my diocese and they all are pretty much the same as the one I attend now. I just have a orthodox hunger I geuss. But im content. The priest I had mentioned earlier knows of my thirst for a more traditonal mass thats why he pointed to the church that has the Tridetine mass once a month. We had a previous conversation about the old latin mass some time ago and im sure he thought I would be interested to know they are offering it there once a month. Then he proceeded to tell me about this other church in mentioned and suggested I might give it a try. It was a very short conversation before mass and it left me with more questions than awnsers. Im not a theologian or anything but if figured it wouldn’t be right going to a church not in full communion with Rome. No matter what my grievances are with my current church. I would never leave for a church who wasn’t in good standing with the Pope.

 

[Zea_mays]

One of the reasons I fell in love with the chruch amongst many was how beautiful the Catholic mass was. The problem with that assumption was the only Catholic mass I had seen until I joined the church was on EWTN. EWTN was one of the main reasons why I converted by the way.

how exactly did you make it through RCIA without going to mass at all until you joined?

i hope your confirmation wasnt your first mass.

you would have seen during that year what the OF was like.

 

[PizzatheHut]

uh did i say i never went 2 mass before i was confirmed?

 

[PizzatheHut]

oh i c what ur taliking about. no i meant when i started the rcia. u r one 4 details.

 

[Timothysis]

The argument is Lefebve was excommunicated for refusing to conform, for wanting to preserve the church as it had been since the Council of Trent, and uphold the teachings of the church. Is his excommunication really valid?

Nice spin, but the fact is that Archbishop Lefebvre was excommunicated for knowingly ordaining bishops without a papal mandate and expressly against the will of the pontiff. The Archbishop was warned of the consequences of his actions if he proceeded, carried on and was promptly excommunicated the next day for his “schismatic” actions. To say that he was excommunicated “for refusing to conform” is, at best, completely mistaken and, at worst, a total lie. Since Pope Benedict removed the excommunication of the four remaining bishops, as opposed to declaring them invalid, then yes, the excommunications are/were “really valid.”

People who advise not going to a SSPX chapel are most likely doing it because of what they have been told but may not know the reasons. Plus, with the remaining bishops excommunication being lifted, are they still illicit? (though I’m not saying they ever were, it was just a point for argument)

For the second time this year Pope Benedict has said that the sspx have no active ministry in the Church, so to advise a catholic against going to Mass to fulfill an obligation at an sspx chapel seems wise. Even though the excommunications are lifted, Masses at sspx chapels are indeed “still illicit.” Why would any good catholic participate in a celebration of the liturgy that the Canon laws of the Church do not even allow?

 

[YADA]

For the second time this year Pope Benedict has said that the sspx have no active ministry in the Church, so to advise a catholic against going to Mass to fulfill an obligation at an sspx chapel seems wise. Even though the excommunications are lifted, Masses at sspx chapels are indeed “still illicit.” Why would any good catholic participate in a celebration of the liturgy that the Canon laws of the Church do not even allow?

Except the OP never explicitely stated that his priest told him to join this SSPX Church nor participate in its Sacraments … he was curious about the Latin [EF] Mass of old … visiting to experience the Mass in Latin is far different then joining the Church Community

… and the OP has stated that he is a new catholic who is still learning the ‘lingo’ … that is why I suggested he sit down with the priest and actually communicate … short communications before or after Mass with a priest who is distracted can be mis-construed … this is the stuff that creates hard and hurt feelings … poor communicaiton is the bane of society … Make an appointment and have a clear open and productive communication

 

[yablabo]

I was talking with my priest today before mass. I shared with him my intrest in the old latin mass. He told me about a church in my parish that offers it once a month, then suggested I might try another church near by my city of Charlotte that isnt in full communion with Rome but have valid sacrements. He told me they regected the 2nd Vatican Council and only practice the old mass and I might enjoy it. My first response was their not in full communion with Rome?!!. Are they excommunicated? He explained that they were at one time but here recently their excommunication was lifted. I didnt question any further about this group but left kind of confused. Why would my preist lead me to a church that rejects the 2nd Vatican Council. Aren’t all of the church councils under the prompting and guidence of the Holy Spirit and not subject to error? So I geuss my question is do you think it was appropriate for my priest to reccommend this church to me?

Only the Councils promulgated as binding on the assent of faith were protected against error by the Holy Spirit. That does not apply to the Second Vatican Council since it was only promulgated as binding on religious assent and, as John Paul II said, must be understood in the light of previous teaching (to the best of my recollection). That means the Second Vatican Council can contain error, like the Catechism of the Catholic Church can also contain error.

No one, except your priest, can know why he sent you to that group.

– Nicole