Wondering about Genesis

[Dan_Daly]

With regards to Noah, I believe that the flood covered a VAST area and wiped out all of humanity. People didn’t even know the other side of the Earth existed until the 1400’s,

Well the people living on the other side of the Earth knew that it existed prior to 1400.

It’s interesting, I just listened to a sermon about how St. Thomas the Apostle came to the Americas after going to India and China. It’s really fascinating stuff that I had never heard before. Indian cultures through the Americas told the Spanish missionaries about a white man with a beard who carried a cross a long time ago and told them about God made man who died on a cross. These tribes called the Spanish priests “Father Thomas’s” as the name of the prophet of old had been passed down from generation to generation.

audiosancto.org/sermon/20051218-Saint-Thomas-the-Apostle-Preaching-the-Gospel-to-the-New-World.html

Pax

 

[Dan_Daly]

To the OP,

I use the doctrine test to help evaluate what narratives Need to be taken literally. In the case of Noah, no doctrines or dogmas hang in the balance. So ones faith is not at risk if a non-literal approach is preferred.

Peterk

I wouldn’t say none of our beliefs are based on Noah and the flood. For one thing we believe that God has promised never to destroy the world by water again, and the rainbow is a sign of this covenant.

 

[Beautiful_Day]

Well the people living on the other side of the Earth knew that it existed prior to 1400.

It’s interesting, I just listened to a sermon about how St. Thomas the Apostle came to the Americas after going to India and China. It’s really fascinating stuff that I had never heard before. Indian cultures through the Americas told the Spanish missionaries about a white man with a beard who carried a cross a long time ago and told them about God made man who died on a cross. These tribes called the Spanish priests “Father Thomas’s” as the name of the prophet of old had been passed down from generation to generation.

audiosancto.org/sermon/20051218-Saint-Thomas-the-Apostle-Preaching-the-Gospel-to-the-New-World.html

Pax

I believe the flood happened before people migrated to the other side of the Earth.

That is really interesting about Thomas.

 

[wfr]

Hi Bill.
How are you?
I just want to point out that, prior to Darwin,
all of Catholicism believed in a literal Adam and Eve, in a literal Tower of Babel,
in a literal Flood and a literal Noah. As did all of Eastern Orthodoxy.
So did all of the Early Church Fathers and all of the popes who ever wrote on these
topics prior to Darwin’s time.
Even Pope Pius XII, in Humani Generis, when he allowed for Catholic exploration
of evolutionary theories, the good Pope at the same time
utterly forbade evolutionary theories which involved Polygenism ((descent from more than one original man)).
After all, if Sin did not enter into the world through ONE ADAM (man), as Paul emphatically says it did, then the doctrine of original sin is of necessity False.

Hi Jay,
I am doing very well, thank you. I pray you and yours are doing well. Shortly after my conversion to the Church I went to retreat sponsored by our diocese. One of the sessions was a class on “understanding the Bible”. The class was taught by a lady who reminded us that she had a masters in theology. We got on the topic of Jonah and she told us that Jonah was never swallowed by the “whale” and that it is probable that Jonah never really existed.

Still having the strong sent of Southern Baptist about me I asked her why she thought this. She told me first off that, “Whales eat creel, and it is impossible for one to swallow a man.” I responded that Scripture does not say that Jonah was swallowed by a whale, but a “big fish,” which had been prepared by God for that purpose. I also pointed out that Jesus had used Jonah as an example of how He would spend three days in the “belly of the earth.”

She told me that I did not understand Scripture. I asked her if I can’t believe the Bible when it tells me that Jonah was swallowed by a great fish, how I can believe it when it tells me that the Eucharist is the Flesh and Blood of our Lord, when it looks, smells, and tastes for all the world like bread and wine.

She told me that I was confusing “truth” with “facts”. After the class I had several people come up to me and thank me for saying what I said. I must admit that I am still somewhat of a literalist when it comes to Scripture, but I give others the right to have a more liberal view. But I find that many Catholics, including priests and catechists hold that the Bible is more myth than fact. Is it any wonder why so many of our brothers and sisters in the Church do not hold to the Real Presence?
PAX CHRISTI,
Bill

 

[PeterK]

I wouldn’t say none of our beliefs are based on Noah and the flood. For one thing we believe that God has promised never to destroy the world by water again, and the rainbow is a sign of this covenant.

Those beliefs are neither dogma or doctrine in the Catholic faith.

Peterk

 

[garysibio]

Hello All, just wondering if someone could shed some light on something for me. How is it that the Lord tells Noah to take a certain number of “clean” and “unclean” creatures into the ark with him when Noah (to the best of my knowledge) predates “the law” as given to Moses? I am probably missing something very obvious here, but I would really appreciate any light someone may give me on this. God Bless!

God seems to have revealed aspects of the law to people before giving it to Moses in its fullness. Joseph knew that it was wrong to have sex with Potifar’s wife. On the other hand, they didn’t seem to have a problem with prostitution (Gen 38:15-16).

It also might be something along the lines of what Paul was talking about in Rom 2:14 So, when gentiles, not having the Law, still through their own innate sense behave as the Law commands, then, even though they have no Law, they are a law for themselves.

 

[buffalo]

I’d always thought that this simply resulted from the Noah story being written long after the fact, and after the clean/unclean laws had been long established. I don’t know what to believe about a worldwide flood. If nothing else, where did all the water go???

ICXC NIKA

Here we go again.

There is a huge ocean under China. There is more water locked up in deep rocks than exists in all the oceans.

Short answer? The oceans.

 

[buffalo]

I attended RCIA w/ a friend that was considering conversion last year. (I’m a cradle Catholic). The priest is very VERY orthodox. He discussed that it is acceptable to believe that GOD created the world over millions of years AND believe in a literal Adam and Eve as the first man and woman. He then said that when people challenge him on this (whether it is from a secular perspective of not believing in Adam/Eve or a fundamentalist perspective of not believing that 7 days were eras of time) he says, “I believe that at mass the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus. Which is harder to believe?” I thought it was the best thing I’ve ever heard a priest say on this topic. My beliefs are the same as this priest. I teach my children that any neanderthals etc… did not have souls. Nor did Adam come from them. God made Adam the first man with a soul and all humanity is descended from him (and Noah). I also teach them man did not cross the landbridge to America until after the tower of Babel when man spread out over the Earth.

With regards to Noah, I believe that the flood covered a VAST area and wiped out all of humanity. People didn’t even know the other side of the Earth existed until the 1400’s, so the phrase ‘whole world’ for an Old Testament author doesn’t necessarily mean what it does today. However, I also believe it is possible that God covered the whole world with the flood. He’s God. He can do whatever He wants. For me it isn’t as important as believing that the flood happened, that Noah was a real person. and that another covenant was made.

Neandertals were human.

 

[MorningSong51]

Two Jewish commentaries offer no definitive explanation. The speculation in the preceding posts are probably the best ideas that are possible at the moment.

Matthew Henry’s commentary does not mention this subject.

There is a literary note, that there is evidence for two intermingled accounts of Noah’s flood here, based on the contradiction of taking seven pair of animals into the ark versus taking one of each kind.

The reference to “clean” and “unclean” sounds like a ritual requirement and underpins that section as coming from a priestly source, according that hypothesis.

I was glad to read that you sourced Matthew Henry - I look at his commentary for information, also.

as for clean and unclean animals - I have several other questions about that section of Genesis, chapter 5:1 " When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind” when they were created. " - isn’t the name for Adam - mankind (Heb. adam, “man” or “mankind”) and also doesn’t this verse reflect on Genesis 1:27 “27 God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.”- the first account of creation and not Genesis 2:22 “22 Yahweh God fashioned the rib he had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her to the man.
23 And the man said: This one at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh! She is to be called Woman, because she was taken from Man.” some say that the 1st account is the more spiritual as the 2nd account is the flesh? Would like some thought on this.

Also, toward the account of the animals brought into the ark by Noah, “Genesis 8:1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded.” and then in " 13 By the first day of the first month of Noah’s six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry. 14 By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry."- so just like at the beginning of creation, God’s Spirit hovered over the waters, " 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Could this have been how creation started?

and last, regarding the unclean and clean animal - Noah and his family were told that they could eat the flesh of animals - which wasn’t done prior. So not only did Noah offer the clean animals to God for sacrifices (Genesis 8:20) but also he was allowed to eat meat, but only clean animals. (Gen. 9:3, 5) does this prelude to Deuteronomy 12:20 as well as Deuteronomy 19 (later - on innocent blood,then you are to set aside three more cities. 10 Do this so that innocent blood will not be shed in your land, which the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance, and so that you will not be guilty of bloodshed.11 But if out of hate someone lies in wait, assaults and kills a neighbor, and then flees to one of these cities, 12 the killer shall be sent for by the town elders, be brought back from the city, and be handed over to the avenger of blood to die. 13 Show no pity. You must purge from Israel the guilt of shedding innocent blood, so that it may go well with you. )

As everyone else has asked, what was the purpose to bring unclean animals into the ark? - the only reference that I can come up with would be in the distinction between, in Leviticus 11

 

[buffalo]

Up here in the diocese of Arlington they do. It really goes back to the seminary in which they studied. These things will be rooted out over time. Reason #422 why I love the Catholic church: it incorporates both faith and reason. I feel that my children will have a much better grasp of their faith, because they will have incorporated both faith and reason into their studies of the Bible and science/history. (For example, I teach them that the Tower of Babel had to have happened before people crossed the landbridge to the Americas.) They will not be sitting their with their history and science studies struggling to shove a cylinder in a square whole. They will most certainly not color pictures of dinosaurs and people living at the same time.

God is god. He can do whatever He wants. Just look at all the other miracles in the Bible. I don’t understand why it is so hard for people to believe that he could just make Adam. Poof. There he is. He is GOD.

What do you say about dinosaur soft tissue being found?

 

[buffalo]

Those beliefs are neither dogma or doctrine in the Catholic faith.

Peterk

The Covenant with Noah
56 After the unity of the human race was shattered by sin God at once sought to save humanity part by part. The covenant with Noah after the flood gives expression to the principle of the divine economy toward the “nations”, in other words, towards men grouped “in their lands, each with [its] own language, by their families, in their nations”.9
57 This state of division into many nations is at once cosmic, social and religious. It is intended to limit the pride of fallen humanity10 united only in its perverse ambition to forge its own unity as at Babel.11 But, because of sin, both polytheism and the idolatry of the nation and of its rulers constantly threaten this provisional economy with the perversion of paganism.12
58 The covenant with Noah remains in force during the times of the Gentiles, until the universal proclamation of the Gospel.13 The Bible venerates several great figures among the Gentiles: Abel the just, the king-priest Melchisedek - a figure of Christ - and the upright “Noah, Daniel, and Job”.14 Scripture thus expresses the heights of sanctity that can be reached by those who live according to the covenant of Noah, waiting for Christ to “gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad”.15

**1219 **The Church has seen in Noah’s ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it “a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water”: The waters of the great flood
you made a sign of the waters of Baptism,
that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness. **701 **The dove. At the end of the flood, whose symbolism refers to Baptism, a dove released by Noah returns with a fresh olive-tree branch in its beak as a sign that the earth was again habitable. When Christ comes up from the water of his baptism, the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove, comes down upon him and remains with him. The Spirit comes down and remains in the purified hearts of the baptized. In certain churches, the Eucharist is reserved in a metal receptacle in the form of a dove (columbarium) suspended above the altar. Christian iconography traditionally uses a dove to suggest the Spirit.

 

[MorningSong51]

I give a footnote in my Study Bible that quotes St. Thomas Aquinas

St. Thomas mentions in 4:3-4 Therefore there were some ceremonies before the Law, but they were not legal ceremonies, because they were not as yet established by legislation. (St. Thomas Aquinas)

7:2-3 The distinction of clean from unclean animals was taking place before the Law, not with regard to eating them, since it is written (Genesis 9:3): “Everything that moveth and liveth shall be meat for you”: but only as to the offering of sacrifices because they used only certain animals for that purpose. If, however, they did make any distinction in regard to eating; it was not that it was considered illegal to eat such animals, since this was not forbidden by any law, but from dislike or custom. (St. Thomas Aquinas)

Would this be referring to Jeremiah 7:21 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. 22 "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. 23 "But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ …

One more add thought, So, how would the New Covenant apply to kosher foods, as for us Gentiles (Christians) read in the New Covenant that there is nothing “unclean” that God has made and also referencing to Romans 11 “16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.”

Hebrew 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah – 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.

Good post - Copland

Mary

 

[Dan_Daly]

I believe the flood happened before people migrated to the other side of the Earth.

That is really interesting about Thomas.

I thought you were meant 1400 AD. My confusion. Yes it is very interesting about Thomas.

 

[Beautiful_Day]

I thought you were meant 1400 AD. My confusion. Yes it is very interesting about Thomas.

oh no, i’m not sure how you got that the author Genesis didn’t know about the other side of the world. Humanity didn’t even know about it until the 1400s. That is why I believe it is possible that the flood covered the whole world ‘as they knew it.’ Buffalo’s comment about water under China is interesting though. I’ve never heard that. The most important thing is to believe the flood did happen, eh?

 

[Beautiful_Day]

Neandertals were human.

So you believe that Adam was not the first man then? It’s hard to figure out your intent when you write one sentence.

 

[Beautiful_Day]

What do you say about dinosaur soft tissue being found?

Again, it is hard to figure you your point if you just write one sentence. Are you implying that dinosaurs and people were on the Earth at the same time?

 

[PeterK]

The Covenant with Noah
56 … The covenant with Noah after the flood gives expression to the principle of the divine economy toward the “nations”,…

**1219 **The Church has seen in Noah’s ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, …

I never said “void of all meaning”. There is no doctrine that stands or falls based solely on a literal reading of the flood.

Your sympathy for the literal reading of all OT texts approaches legend on this forum.
And that’s fine.

Nice chatting.

Peterk

 

[buffalo]

So you believe that Adam was not the first man then? It’s hard to figure out your intent when you write one sentence.

Adam was the first human and we are all descended from him, he was not born of parents, he was created by God.

 

[buffalo]

Again, it is hard to figure you your point if you just write one sentence. Are you implying that dinosaurs and people were on the Earth at the same time?

There are two possibilities:

1. Soft tissue can survive for 60 million years - there are peer reviewed papers showing it cannot so they will have to be reversed

or

1. They are not that old. In that case man saw them. We have ancient art that shows them. How did those people know what they looked like?

 

[buffalo]

Your sympathy for the literal reading of all OT texts approaches legend on this forum.
And that’s fine.

Nice chatting.

Peterk

Thank you. A clear defense of Scripture I do not apologize for.