Wondering if Priest is commiting abuses during mass!

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jd4400hst

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Hi,

This is my first post, I hope I do it right. I actually have two priests that are performing what i BELIEVE TO be abuses.
First, in one morning mass, the priest completely skips the washing of the hands, is this acceptable? If not does it make the mass invalid or illicit.
Second, (I even confronted the priest and he said it was okay) when he pours the wine into the chalices, there is always at least two, he then pours the water but only pours it into one of the chalices. He says that is fine because it is just a symbol and then used the example that if he was in a large church, he would not be expected to pour water into say 12 chalices. I would think you would just pour the water into the caraffe of wine first and then pour.
Does anyone KNOW FOR SURE are these practices WRONG or not. I need definitive proof, if they are wrong I need to be able to prove it to them so maybe they will stop.
Also, the priest that dispenses with the washing of the hands also has a horrible habit that drives me crazy. He always asks for volunteers to be BREAD ministers. This is not bread, it has at this point been consecrated to the Body and Blood of Christ when it is to be administered. Also, they are not bread ministers, they are not even Eucharistic minister, they are Extraordinary Ministers.
Thanks for the anticipated help
 
jd4400hst said:
Hi,

This is my first post, I hope I do it right. I actually have two priests that are performing what i BELIEVE TO be abuses.
First, in one morning mass, the priest completely skips the washing of the hands, is this acceptable? If not does it make the mass invalid or illicit.
Second, (I even confronted the priest and he said it was okay) when he pours the wine into the chalices, there is always at least two, he then pours the water but only pours it into one of the chalices. He says that is fine because it is just a symbol and then used the example that if he was in a large church, he would not be expected to pour water into say 12 chalices. I would think you would just pour the water into the caraffe of wine first and then pour.
Does anyone KNOW FOR SURE are these practices WRONG or not. I need definitive proof, if they are wrong I need to be able to prove it to them so maybe they will stop.
Also, the priest that dispenses with the washing of the hands also has a horrible habit that drives me crazy. He always asks for volunteers to be BREAD ministers. This is not bread, it has at this point been consecrated to the Body and Blood of Christ when it is to be administered. Also, they are not bread ministers, they are not even Eucharistic minister, they are Extraordinary Ministers.
Thanks for the anticipated help
Click to expand...
You positive you’re walking into a Catholic church?
 
jd4400hst said:
Hi,

This is my first post, I hope I do it right. I actually have two priests that are performing what i BELIEVE TO be abuses.
First, in one morning mass, the priest completely skips the washing of the hands, is this acceptable? If not does it make the mass invalid or illicit.
Second, (I even confronted the priest and he said it was okay) when he pours the wine into the chalices, there is always at least two, he then pours the water but only pours it into one of the chalices. He says that is fine because it is just a symbol and then used the example that if he was in a large church, he would not be expected to pour water into say 12 chalices. I would think you would just pour the water into the caraffe of wine first and then pour.
Does anyone KNOW FOR SURE are these practices WRONG or not. I need definitive proof, if they are wrong I need to be able to prove it to them so maybe they will stop.
Also, the priest that dispenses with the washing of the hands also has a horrible habit that drives me crazy. He always asks for volunteers to be BREAD ministers. This is not bread, it has at this point been consecrated to the Body and Blood of Christ when it is to be administered. Also, they are not bread ministers, they are not even Eucharistic minister, they are Extraordinary Ministers.
Thanks for the anticipated help
Click to expand...
Why are you so much into proving the priests wrong? I think that you should go and do some homework on your own before accusing priests of any wrongdoing and asking people to prove your point. Please do a search on CAF and in the GIRM. Finally, Jesus said " I am the bread of life".
 
jd4400hst said:
Second, (I even confronted the priest and he said it was okay) when he pours the wine into the chalices, there is always at least two, he then pours the water but only pours it into one of the chalices. He says that is fine because it is just a symbol and then used the example that if he was in a large church, he would not be expected to pour water into say 12 chalices. I would think you would just pour the water into the caraffe of wine first and then pour.
Does anyone KNOW FOR SURE are these practices WRONG or not.
Click to expand...
Fr Edward McNamara at ZENIT has addressed this (latter half of this article). There is no consensus, but it would seem that either practice is both valid and licit.

tee
 
The biggest abuse is his saying that “it” is only a symbol.
 
allhers said:
The biggest abuse is his saying that “it” is only a symbol.
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I was always taught that the water was indeed a symbol, when mixed with the (pre-consecrated) wine, of the two natures of Christ, divine and human. How is that an abuse?
 
I think the only abuse that could be involved would be changing it without approval. Utlimately, it isn’t a huge deal if it’s poured into all of them or not.
 
Cristiano said:
Why are you so much into proving the priests wrong? I think that you should go and do some homework on your own before accusing priests of any wrongdoing and asking people to prove your point. Please do a search on CAF and in the GIRM. Finally, Jesus said " I am the bread of life".
Click to expand...
I don’t understand why the fellow’s post upset you so much. Certainly, if the priest is committing Liturgical abuses, a member of the faithful has the right to know. The poster was merely asking the community on the forum to help him to determine whether or not particular things are abuses.

Any of the questions that people ask on these forums could be answered by looking in certain books or on certain webpages. People post questions when they do not know where to look, or when they desire any of the number of very learned people on the forums to help them find information for any reason. What’s wrong with that? 🙂

Peace and God bless
 
Lazerlike42 said:
JD,

Skipping the washing of the hands is an abuse.
Click to expand...
If indeed the washing of the hands was actually skipped. There are priests who have the Mass down to such a system that minimal adherence can occur and be unobservable for all intents and purposes. Once upon a time, I was in a parish where the pastor did his “20 minute Mass” at noon every Sunday. It certainly didn’t inspire worship, but it was not an abuse. I guess it met the “letter” if not the “spirit” of the Mass.
 
IrishAm said:
If indeed the washing of the hands was actually skipped. There are priests who have the Mass down to such a system that minimal adherence can occur and be unobservable for all intents and purposes. Once upon a time, I was in a parish where the pastor did his “20 minute Mass” at noon every Sunday. It certainly didn’t inspire worship, but it was not an abuse. I guess it met the “letter” if not the “spirit” of the Mass.
Click to expand...
I don’t see how you could miss the Lavabo. He could simply be dipping his fingers into a finger bowl, but he’d still need to say the prayer and it would still be obvious particularly at that spot during the Mass if someone were watching.
 
jd4400hst said:
Hi,

This is my first post, I hope I do it right. I actually have two priests that are performing what i BELIEVE TO be abuses.
First, in one morning mass, the priest completely skips the washing of the hands, is this acceptable? If not does it make the mass invalid or illicit.
Second, (I even confronted the priest and he said it was okay) when he pours the wine into the chalices, there is always at least two, he then pours the water but only pours it into one of the chalices. He says that is fine because it is just a symbol and then used the example that if he was in a large church, he would not be expected to pour water into say 12 chalices. I would think you would just pour the water into the caraffe of wine first and then pour.
Does anyone KNOW FOR SURE are these practices WRONG or not. I need definitive proof, if they are wrong I need to be able to prove it to them so maybe they will stop.
Also, the priest that dispenses with the washing of the hands also has a horrible habit that drives me crazy. He always asks for volunteers to be BREAD ministers. This is not bread, it has at this point been consecrated to the Body and Blood of Christ when it is to be administered. Also, they are not bread ministers, they are not even Eucharistic minister, they are Extraordinary Ministers.
Thanks for the anticipated help
Click to expand...
  1. Lavabo cannot be skipped. Skipping it, however, does not make the Mass invalid. Only messing with the Consecration does that.
  2. Father is right. He is expected to pour water only into the principal chalice.
40.png
allhers:
The biggest abuse is his saying that “it” is only a symbol.
Click to expand...
Actually, Father is also right. At this point the wine has not been consecrated, and the mixing of the water and wine is a symbol of the sharing of the divinity of Christ as he shared our humanity.
 
Lazerlike42 said:
I don’t understand why the fellow’s post upset you so much. Certainly, if the priest is committing Liturgical abuses, a member of the faithful has the right to know. The poster was merely asking the community on the forum to help him to determine whether or not particular things are abuses.

Any of the questions that people ask on these forums could be answered by looking in certain books or on certain webpages. People post questions when they do not know where to look, or when they desire any of the number of very learned people on the forums to help them find information for any reason. What’s wrong with that? 🙂

Peace and God bless
Click to expand...
 
Thank you for your defense. I am not out to hang a priest, I simply needed to know if there was something being done wrong, then I knew I had to do as what was taught to me and go to them and show them I had done research and they were not performing to the laws of the church and mass. Then, if that does not work we are to go with several of the church, if that does not work, then you are to go to the entire church. I always REMEMBER the story of I believe ST. Francis, where there was a priest and all the parishioners were screaming at him at threatening him because he had SUPPOSEDLY had some sort of scandalous affair, and St. Francis went up in front of everyone, knelt, and kissed the hands of the priest, stating these are the instruments that bring us the body and blood of Christ. This is a world that is quite crazy right now, you even have Priests and Bishops thinking they should be allowed to give communion to politicians who openly support abortion, so, I assume that I, trying to be the best Catholic I can be, make sure my mas is celebrated as it is supposed to be. I thank God, I am finding out this is all right. Now all I have to do is find out if the other priest has at his discretion the right to dispense with the washing of the hands, I hope he does. I have been told by two priests he does not, but they are very STRICT in their beliefs and still conduct latin Masses often. The GIRM is very hard for me to find a section I need so I thought I would just as here. I meant no harm and no disrespect, but we all as Catholics have the right to a licit and valid mass.
Thank You and hope this makes things clear, I am on NO witch hunt here.
 
Phemie said:
I don’t see how you could miss the Lavabo. He could simply be dipping his fingers into a finger bowl, but he’d still need to say the prayer and it would still be obvious particularly at that spot during the Mass if someone were watching.
Click to expand...
There is no question he is skipping it, he only does it during morning Mass in the small chapel, I am usually no more than 10ft. away. I have also come early and stayed after to see if there is anything there to show he may done as much as just dip his fingers, there is not even a bowl. Also, he will read (actually Ad Lib) the Gospel, then offer petitions, as soon as petitions are over he goes directly to the altar picks up bread and starts the consecration. There is absolutely no doubt.
 
jd4400hst said:
There is no question he is skipping it, he only does it during morning Mass in the small chapel, I am usually no more than 10ft. away. I have also come early and stayed after to see if there is anything there to show he may done as much as just dip his fingers, there is not even a bowl. Also, he will read (actually Ad Lib) the Gospel, then offer petitions, as soon as petitions are over he goes directly to the altar picks up bread and starts the consecration. There is absolutely no doubt.
Click to expand...
Well, if he isn’t offering a homily, I believe this is ok. A priest I trust very much has mentioned that a homily is not required during the daily Mass. I haven’t looked this up anywhere officially, since it’s never cocme up before, but I trust that if he’s said that he is correct. Of course, I am open to correction. 🙂

From what you say, it sounds like he doesn’t do the offertory, though, or the preface, or the other parts of the Liturgy of the Eucharist that occur before the consecration?

That woule be a far bigger problem than merely skipping the washing of the hands!
 
jd4400hst said:
There is no question he is skipping it, he only does it during morning Mass in the small chapel, I am usually no more than 10ft. away. I have also come early and stayed after to see if there is anything there to show he may done as much as just dip his fingers, there is not even a bowl. Also, he will read (actually Ad Lib) the Gospel, then offer petitions, as soon as petitions are over he goes directly to the altar picks up bread and starts the consecration. There is absolutely no doubt.
Click to expand...
He can’t skip the lavabo, prayer over the gifts, and preface. All that is illicit.

The Gospel is to be read, not adlibbed.
 
The priest not washing his hands makes the Mass illicit (but it is still valid).

From my understanding of the GIRM, water must be added to all the wine, before the pouring (GIRM 142 or 178).

Not adding water to all of the wine again makes the Mass illicit, but not sure if it actually invalidates the Consecration of the “non-watered” wine.
 
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