Word order and the revised liturgy

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Hokomai

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**The revision says:

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have **greatly sinned

I stared at this for a long time trying to work out exactly what was wrong with the English. I think no native speaker of English would say “I have greatly sinned” because the sentence has no object. You would say “I have greatly sinned against God”. But without the object, you have to say: ‘I have sinned greatly’. The same is true of similar adverbs: ‘I have eaten slowly’ v ‘I have slowly eaten the snails’ or ‘I ran carefully’ v I carefully ran up the stairs or I ran up the stairs carefully’.

Am I missing something?**
 
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned

Through my fault,
Through my fault,
Through my most grievous fault.

I think that’s how the sentence ends because the Mea Culpa was added back in.
 
Hokomai said:
**The revision says:

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned

I stared at this for a long time trying to work out exactly what was wrong with the English. I think no native speaker of English would say “I have greatly sinned” because the sentence has no object. You would say “I have greatly sinned against God”. But without the object, you have to say: ‘I have sinned greatly’. The same is true of similar adverbs: ‘I have eaten slowly’ v ‘I have slowly eaten the snails’ or ‘I ran carefully’ v I carefully ran up the stairs or I ran up the stairs carefully’.

Am I missing something?**
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Yes. All sin is against God. Think about the sentence like this -

**I confess to almighty God ****that I have **greatly sinned.

There is no need to add “against God.”
 
Hokomai said:
I stared at this for a long time trying to work out exactly what was wrong with the English. I think no native speaker of English would say “I have greatly sinned” because the sentence has no object. You would say “I have greatly sinned against God”. But without the object, you have to say: ‘I have sinned greatly’. The same is true of similar adverbs: ‘I have eaten slowly’ v ‘I have slowly eaten the snails’ or ‘I ran carefully’ v I carefully ran up the stairs or I ran up the stairs carefully’.

Am I missing something?
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This is a translation of

*Confiteor Deo omnipotenti, et vobis fratres, quia **peccavi nimis *cogitatione, verbo opere et omissione: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa

pecco, peccare, peccavi - to commit a fault, to sin, to transgress, to offend, to go wrong, to go astray

nimis - too much, excessively, greatly, very much

There is no accusative in the Latin, which I think you want to add in the English. Given the parameters, how would you better translate the Latin? As you can see, there are various possibilities.

Incidentally there is no “through” in the Latin. It has to be part of the verb peccavi so it appears the actual translation of peccavi is “I have sinned through [my fault, etc.].”
 
Hokomai said:
**The revision says:

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned

I stared at this for a long time trying to work out exactly what was wrong with the English. I think no native speaker of English would say “I have greatly sinned” because the sentence has no object. You would say “I have greatly sinned against God”. But without the object, you have to say: ‘I have sinned greatly’. The same is true of similar adverbs: ‘I have eaten slowly’ v ‘I have slowly eaten the snails’ or ‘I ran carefully’ v I carefully ran up the stairs or I ran up the stairs carefully’.

Am I missing something?**
Click to expand...
The verb “sin” is intransitive, so it does not take an object. One can add a prepositional clause (“against God,” “in my heart,” “in a box, with a fox,” etc.), but these do not constitute objects. English is very flexible about adverb placement, and adverbs can certainly go before an intransitive verb, as we see no fewer than four times in this quotation:
You will see then that I have greatly pitied and greatly dared, only because I have greatly suffered and widely observed.
–Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley​
 
Hokomai said:
I stared at this for a long time trying to work out exactly what was wrong with the English. I think no native speaker of English would say “I have greatly sinned” because the sentence has no object. You would say “I have greatly sinned against God”. But without the object, you have to say: ‘I have sinned greatly’. The same is true of similar adverbs: ‘I have eaten slowly’ v ‘I have slowly eaten the snails’ or ‘I ran carefully’ v I carefully ran up the stairs or I ran up the stairs carefully’.
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I think you are exactly right. Or maybe you exactly are right.

These finer points of English grammar and usage are beyond what I was taught in English class, but that part of the new translation is definitely awkward.
 
Hokomai said:
**The revision says:

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned

I stared at this for a long time trying to work out exactly what was wrong with the English. I think no native speaker of English would say “I have greatly sinned” because the sentence has no object. You would say “I have greatly sinned against God”. But without the object, you have to say: ‘I have sinned greatly’. The same is true of similar adverbs: ‘I have eaten slowly’ v ‘I have slowly eaten the snails’ or ‘I ran carefully’ v I carefully ran up the stairs or I ran up the stairs carefully’.

fall fox

I have receintly read a small booklet, Understanding the Revised Mass Texts, by Liturgy Training Publications, I found it very helpful to understand why the changel were made. First of all, you are taking four words out of a very long sentence. Remember, that the guiding principle of the translation is a closer adherence to the words in Latin and in this case, not a sharper critique of our virtue. Everyone should study and learn about what has been done so that you truely get the most from the New Mass. I believe that the International Commission on English in the Liturgy has done a wonderful service to us and our Church. Please don’t take snipits that you have heard, possibly incorrectly, and make judgements.**
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Digitonomy said:
These finer points of English grammar and usage are beyond what I was taught in English class, but that part of the new translation is definitely awkward.
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I wonder if in military schools they’re taught to say “I have greatly sinned, SIR!” 😃
 
Hokomai said:
The revision says:

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
**that I have **greatly sinned

I stared at this for a long time trying to work out exactly what was wrong with the English. I think no native speaker of English would say “I have greatly sinned” because the sentence has no object. You would say “I have greatly sinned against God”. But without the object, you have to say: ‘I have sinned greatly’. The same is true of similar adverbs: ‘I have eaten slowly’ v ‘I have slowly eaten the snails’ or ‘I ran carefully’ v I carefully ran up the stairs or I ran up the stairs carefully’.

Am I missing something?
Click to expand...
Placing the adverb before the verb indicates an adverb of frequency rather than an adverb of manner. For example: 1) Frequency: always, 2) Manner: slowly.

Latin. nimis. Caes.—(vii. 36, 5). Cic. i. 3; iv. 13 bis; P. T, A. 28. Adv. too, too much. Cf. nimius. (From “Vocabulary of High School Latin” by Gonzalez Lodge)

Confiteor Deo omnipotens et vobis, fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo, opere et omissione:
 
Vico said:
Placing the adverb before the verb indicates an adverb of frequency rather than an adverb of manner.
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Interesting. So we are confessing that we have sinned with great frequency, but venturing no assessment of the seriousness of those sins?
 
Vico said:
Confiteor Deo omnipotens et vobis, fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo, opere et omissione:
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I almost made the same mistake. It’s actually

Confiteor Deo omnipotenti, et vobis, fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo, opere et omissione

omnipotens - almighty
omnipotentis - of the almighty
omnipotenti - to the almighty
omnipotentem - the almighty (acc.)
omnipotente - by, with the almighty

Literally translated, “I {confess, acknowledge} to Almighty God, and to you {brethren, brothers and sisters}, that I have {too much, greatly, excessively} {sinned, offended} by thought, word, deed, and omission”
 
ProVobis said:
I almost made the same mistake. It’s actually

Confiteor Deo omnipotenti, et vobis, fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo, opere et omissione

omnipotens - almighty
omnipotentis - of the almighty
omnipotenti - to the almighty
omnipotentem - the almighty (acc.)
omnipotente - by, with the almighty

Literally translated, “I {confess, acknowledge} to Almighty God, and to you {brethren, brothers and sisters}, that I have {too much, greatly, excessively} {sinned, offended} by thought, word, deed, and omission”
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Yikes, I missed that. I copied if from

oldstmarys.org/sacredliturgy/latinmass.html

without checking a second source.
 
Digitonomy said:
Interesting. So we are confessing that we have sinned with great frequency, but venturing no assessment of the seriousness of those sins?
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It is like the prayer in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysotsom: O Lord, forgive me for I have sinned without number.
 
Thanks for all those interesting replies. I think as a result of all that education by other posters that i may indeed have been missing the point the the ‘greatness’ is understood in context as a reference to frequency and not size. I don’t think in modern English that ‘great’ is readily understood as meaning number unless you say ‘great number’. Am I right in thinking that a better translation into modern English would be"I have committed great numbers of sins" or “I have often sinned” or ‘I have sinned a lot’? (I’m not suggesting these as felicitous alternatives, just looking at the translation).
 
Vico said:
It is like the prayer in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysotsom: O Lord, forgive me for I have sinned without number.
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Again, the Spanish version seems very close to the Latin. In Spanish instead of saying “sinned greatly” we say “sinned a lot” (“he pecado mucho”). So at least in that translation is more about quantity than anything.
 
Hokomai said:
Thanks for all those interesting replies. I think as a result of all that education by other posters that i may indeed have been missing the point the the ‘greatness’ is understood in context as a reference to frequency and not size. I don’t think in modern English that ‘great’ is readily understood as meaning number unless you say ‘great number’. Am I right in thinking that a better translation into modern English would be"I have committed great numbers of sins" or “I have often sinned” or ‘I have sinned a lot’? (I’m not suggesting these as felicitous alternatives, just looking at the translation).
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I don’t think so. To me, the Latin nimis doesn’t particularly suggest “too frequently” or “too severely,” just “too much,” which can be taken in either of those senses as appropriate.

At any rate, as I remarked above, there is nothing unusual about putting an adverb – even, pace Vico, an adverb not of frequency – before the verb it modifies: e.g., “I wholeheartedly agree,” “I had scarcely arrived,” “I thoroughly enjoyed it,” “I suddenly snapped,” etc. Moreover, in this particular instance, placing the adverb before “sinned” helps ensure that the sentence is parsed correctly: “I have {greatly sinned} {in my thoughts} and {in my words}”, and not, for instance, “I have sinned {greatly in my thoughts} and {in my words}”.
 
“Greatly” is an adverb. An adverb can modify a verb or an adjective. An adverb can be place before or after the verb. You could even say, “Greatly, I have sinned.” but that is stretching it. Back in the olden days they used to teach something called, “Sentence diagramming.” It was greatly helpful.
 
porthos11 said:
The reason it looks odd is because it resembles a split infinitive, the thorn in grammarians’ sides.
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I think you’re right there. But just like “to boldly go” or “to not care,” I think splitting the infinitive has become more accepted because the adverb is now seen as part of the verb. Thus splittting the verb such as “have greatly sinned” is not as taboo as it once might have been. But then neither are phrases such as “between you and I” and “who do you want.” English grammar is like no other because of the wordiness of the language, its ever-changing nature, and the quick acceptance of those changes. In other words, no grammar police.
 
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