Words from some Muslims in the wake of Alexandria

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…بسم الأب و الإبن و الروح القدس، الإله الواحد

There are certain things that for reasons of human decency and security I cannot in good conscience provide direct link to, but I have just seen (again) another list full of addresses of Coptic churches around the world for terrorist targets in the Nativity season and the rest of the New Year, courtesy of some people calling themselves “Al-Mojahden Electronic Network”. The Copts have been informed of such lists in places like Australia, France, and elsewhere so that the affected churches can plan for their security.

In the meantime, I would like all good Muslims here on CAF as well as those who implore us to make some sort of common cause with Islam on any grounds (regardless of their religion) to read some of the commentary found therein. You who do so much to present the best face of Islam would do well to look at the ugliest face of it, too, just as Christians are constantly reminded of the Crusades (in which the Coptic Church did not participate) in some sick attempt to outsource one community’s guilt to the other.

These are the things that Muslims are saying, coming in the context of a tutorial on how to make more effective explosive devices to be used during bombings planned for the Coptic Christmas:

واذكرهم بان هذا الفعل لا يعد الا ردا على ما قام به اعوان النجس شنودة واتباعه

“(We) remind them this act is done (not only) in response to what the unclean Shenouda (HH Pope Shenouda) and his followers have done”

(Written with reference to the supposed “captivity” of the Christian women they have taken as their co-religionists, Camelia Shehata and Wafa Constantine, both of whom have denied ever converting to Islam)

قال تعالى : { وَأَعِدُّوا لَهُمْ مَا اسْتَطَعْتُمْ مِنْ قُوَّةٍ وَمِنْ رِبَاطِ الْخَيْلِ تُرْهِبُونَ بِهِ عَدُوَّ اللَّهِ وَعَدُوَّكُمْ وَآَخَرِينَ مِنْ دُونِهِمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَهُمُ اللَّهُ يَعْلَمُهُمْ وَمَا تُنْفِقُوا مِنْ شَيْءٍ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ يُوَفَّ إِلَيْكُمْ وَأَنْتُمْ لَا تُظْلَمُونَ

“He says: {And prepare against them what you can of power, including steeds of war to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides whom you know not what God teaches you spend nothing in the way of Allah fulfilled you and you do not unjustly}”

The full vocalization of the writing and the general language leads me to believe that this is a direct from the Qur’an, justifying their actions. They say this after showing methods for making grenades courtesy of their “brothers of the Islamic State of Iraq”.

بالقنابل والرصاص , لتطيح بالشرك واهله الانجاس

“(Let) bombs and bullets overthrow the shirk and the impure people” (those who practice it; i.e., the Coptic Christians)

نسأل الله أن يرينا في اقباط مصر ما يسؤهم في القريب العاجل على يد اسود الجهاد والتوحيد

“We ask God to show us the Copts in Egypt iswum (? whatever this word is…probably not anything good, given the context) in the near future at the hands of black tawhid and jihad”

The list of churches that are potential targets also included a link to the directory of U.S.A. Coptic Churches maintained by the website of St. Takla Haymanout Church in Alexandria, presumably indicating that any church on the list may be a legitimate target.

Just a dose of reality for all people of good will. Today Alexandria, tomorrow anywhere. Coptic Christmas is January 7th this year…

"They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service."
 
"Al-Qaeda’s Iraqi affiliate claimed responsibility for that attack and made new threats against Christians. The group threatened to attack Egyptian Copts if their church did not free two Christians it said had been “imprisoned in their monasteries” for having converted to Islam.
The two women were Camilia Chehata
and Wafa Constantine, the wives of Coptic priests whose claimed conversion caused a stir in Egypt." Link.

I cannot understand that by the Coptic Church, PLEASE have both **Camilia Chehata **and Wafa Constantine show-up on a popular secular TV station (even in a different country) with official witnesses from the Coptic Church and Alazhar to close this miserable never ending story.

IF they have really converted to Islam or want to convert then let them free it’s their “free will”, Christianity or the Coptic Church will not be doomed because of those two women…

AND if they did not convert or partially converted to Islam then they change their minds after discovering what Islam really was and decided to repent back to Christianity, then Muslims cannot keep demanding that they are Muslims any more, and Alazhar should issue a statement to the Muslims to stop their propaganda.
 
Someone posted on another thread in which you posted a similar comment a link to a video of one of the women in question, Camila Chehata stated that she didn;t convert to islam and re-affirming her christian faith. Of course this link was to youtube but it probably comes from another source, i didn’t search further since my arabic is basically nonexistent. Perhaps you should respond to this same discussion on that thread before replicating it here.

And besides even if they were to do as you propose today, the extremists will not listen. Lies beget more lies and people as trapped in self delusion as these extremists will always come up with a false rationalisation somehow “proving” that their right. I have no doubt if this happens they’ll accuse these women of being forced to say they remained christian or that they were forcibly converted back and thus they should be “liberated” to join the fold of Islam. Im afraid rationality and logic goes out the window with fanatics.

For others the thread i mentioned earlier was linked a news article to comments from an imam regarding the popes recent comments on the issue of attacks against christians. It can be found

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=524732
 
…بسم الأب و الإبن و الروح القدس، الإله الواحد

There are certain things that for reasons of human decency and security I cannot in good conscience provide direct link to, but I have just seen (again) another list full of addresses of Coptic churches around the world for terrorist targets in the Nativity season and the rest of the New Year, courtesy of some people calling themselves “Al-Mojahden Electronic Network”. The Copts have been informed of such lists in places like Australia, France, and elsewhere so that the affected churches can plan for their security.

In the meantime, I would like all good Muslims here on CAF as well as those who implore us to make some sort of common cause with Islam on any grounds (regardless of their religion) to read some of the commentary found therein. You who do so much to present the best face of Islam would do well to look at the ugliest face of it, too, just as Christians are constantly reminded of the Crusades (in which the Coptic Church did not participate) in some sick attempt to outsource one community’s guilt to the other.

These are the things that Muslims are saying, coming in the context of a tutorial on how to make more effective explosive devices to be used during bombings planned for the Coptic Christmas:

واذكرهم بان هذا الفعل لا يعد الا ردا على ما قام به اعوان النجس شنودة واتباعه

“(We) remind them this act is done (not only) in response to what the unclean Shenouda (HH Pope Shenouda) and his followers have done”

(Written with reference to the supposed “captivity” of the Christian women they have taken as their co-religionists, Camelia Shehata and Wafa Constantine, both of whom have denied ever converting to Islam)

قال تعالى : { وَأَعِدُّوا لَهُمْ مَا اسْتَطَعْتُمْ مِنْ قُوَّةٍ وَمِنْ رِبَاطِ الْخَيْلِ تُرْهِبُونَ بِهِ عَدُوَّ اللَّهِ وَعَدُوَّكُمْ وَآَخَرِينَ مِنْ دُونِهِمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَهُمُ اللَّهُ يَعْلَمُهُمْ وَمَا تُنْفِقُوا مِنْ شَيْءٍ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ يُوَفَّ إِلَيْكُمْ وَأَنْتُمْ لَا تُظْلَمُونَ

“He says: {And prepare against them what you can of power, including steeds of war to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides whom you know not what God teaches you spend nothing in the way of Allah fulfilled you and you do not unjustly}”

The full vocalization of the writing and the general language leads me to believe that this is a direct from the Qur’an, justifying their actions. They say this after showing methods for making grenades courtesy of their “brothers of the Islamic State of Iraq”.

بالقنابل والرصاص , لتطيح بالشرك واهله الانجاس

“(Let) bombs and bullets overthrow the shirk and the impure people” (those who practice it; i.e., the Coptic Christians)

نسأل الله أن يرينا في اقباط مصر ما يسؤهم في القريب العاجل على يد اسود الجهاد والتوحيد

“We ask God to show us the Copts in Egypt iswum (? whatever this word is…probably not anything good, given the context) in the near future at the hands of black tawhid and jihad”

The list of churches that are potential targets also included a link to the directory of U.S.A. Coptic Churches maintained by the website of St. Takla Haymanout Church in Alexandria, presumably indicating that any church on the list may be a legitimate target.

Just a dose of reality for all people of good will. Today Alexandria, tomorrow anywhere. Coptic Christmas is January 7th this year…

"They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service."
Enemy of Allah???
And here I thought we were told both Muslims and Christians adore the same one true merciful God. :hmmm:
 
**Pray for these persecuted Christians & pray for the conversion of these sad, misguided Muslims who use violence & fear to intimidate & murder innocent people!

All peace loving Muslims around the world must denounce these evil acts of violence publicly & repeatedly!!

Jesus taught us;

“Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me.” (JN 14:1)

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. " (JN 14:27)
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
Yes, that’s a very good thing they’re doing. I hope they’ll stay for subsequent liturgies, for years and years on end, together with the Copts. If it is the start of a real commitment to preserving human decency and elevating the Copts to the level of equal citizens with inherent, inalienable rights, then surely they will be blessed by God. If it is a ploy to get good PR for Islam in the wake of an Islamic terrorist attack and get themselves into Al-Ahram (“ooh, look what Adel Imam is doing now! We knew he was a Christian!” or whatever; you know, “Hassan w Marqos” take 2), then God will likewise reveal that, too. The ball is really in the Muslims’ court here, since they’re undertaking the action. At any rate, it is a positive sign and a good first step, though I hope you won’t begrudge me for being understandably very guarded about kindly overtures from followers of Islam…
 
If this is genuine then it is good. If however this is meant as Dzheremi said as a publicity stunt to try and make Islam look good without any actual conviction just to cover up for the terrorist attacks conducted by muslims then it is most abjectly bad.

I genuinly hope that they are doing this sincerely.
 
The ball is really in the Muslims’ court here, since they’re undertaking the action.
And the Muslims I’ve seen on TVs say that the ball in Pope Shenouda court, including this article just published yesterday by one of our local newspapers.
 
Hi Sam. It is late already here so I used a translation service to read the article because I’m tired, so I’m not sure I understood every word. It’s okay, though, because there’s nothing in there that I wouldn’t already expect. More paranoid accusations, lies, and slander against the Coptic pope. I guess it is easier to believe that the Coptic Church holds converts to Islam hostage than to believe that the Muslims are believing a lie that they like rather than the truth that Camelia Shehata did NOT convert to Islam - she is a Christian, and remains so! (I’ve posted this video before but I’m not sure if you saw it.)

And some of the comments on that article…Lord have mercy…“Shenouda is the cause of terrorism”?! That is disgusting. Shenouda is an 87 year old man of deep spirituality who has served his church for over fifty years as a priest, a monastic, and a brave and good Pope. I am not a Copt, but it still pains me to read such filth against him. I wish that any people who say such things about him would read his Papal Message for this year’s Feast of the Nativity (Christmas). Here it is, from CopticChurch.net in Arabic and English:

الرسالة البابوية لعيد الميلاد المجيد - يناير 2011

أبنائي الأحباء في المهجر، إكليروساً وشعباً

سلام لكم ونعمة، وتهنئة بعيد ميلاد ربنا له المجد.

كونوا جميعاً بخير، يرعاكم الله ويحفظكم، ويُسمعنا عنكم كل خبر طيب. ولتكن لكم تأملاتكم في الميلاد المجيد وأحداثه.
ومن جهتنا، اُحب أنكم لا تقلقون علينا. نحن بخير

إن الأحداث الأليمة التي مرت بنا، أوجدت تعاطفاً علينا من كل ناحية، ونشاطاً وتدقيقاً أكثر في حماية الكنائس والإهتمام بأمنها. كما أن الضيقة بطبيعتها تقرِّب النفس إلى الله. ونحن نؤمن أن الله هو الحافظ والمعين، وأنه “أن لم يحرس الرب البيت، فباطلاً سهر الحراس.”
كما نؤمن بوعد الرب للكنيسة إن أبواب الجحيم لن تقوى عليها. لذلك فالكل في سلام.

كونوا جميعكم في هدوء، مطمئنين إلى عمل الرب، فرحين جميعاً بهذا العيد. لأن ميلاد ربنا يسوع المسيح، وأقصد تجسده، كان نقطة البدء في كل الخيرات التي تمتعت بها البشرية حتى توَّجها الفداء. كما كان التجسد دليلاً على محبة الله لنا، وعلى التصالح الذي تم بين السماء والأرض.

إفرحوا بالرب يا أبنائي، وأقول أيضاً إفرحوا. وكل أحداث تمر بكم، قولوا “كله للخير.”

أخيراً لكم محبتي جميعاً.

وكونوا محاللين من الروح القدس.

(إمضاء)

البابا شنودة الثالث
عيد الميلاد 2011

Papal Message for the Feast of Nativity
My beloved children in the lands of immigration, both clergy and laity.

Peace to you and grace. My congratulations for the Feast of Nativity of our Lord, to whom is the glory.

Be all well, shepherded by God who keeps you. May we hear all good about you. May you have contemplations in the glorious Nativity and its happenings. As for us, I want you not to worry about us – we are well…

The painful circumstances that happened to us have brought compassion upon us from all sides, as well as extreme care and eagerness in protecting the churches, as well as care for our cause. Also, tribulation, by its nature, makes the soul closer to God. And we believe that God is the Protector and Helper, and that “unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.” We also believe the promise of the Lord to His Church, that the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Therefore all are in peacefulness. Be calm all of you, assured of the work of the Lord, and all of you to rejoice in this feast, for it is the Birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, and I mean, His Incarnation was the starting point for all the good that graced humanity till it was crowned with redemption. As well, the Incarnation was proof of the love of God to us, and the reconciliation that was fulfilled between heaven and earth. Rejoice in the Lord my dear children, and again I say rejoice. In all circumstances that pass by you, say ‘it’s all for good.’ (كله للخير)

Finally, my love to you all.

Be absolved from the Holy Spirit.

(Signed)
His Holiness Pope Shenouda III
Feast of Nativity 2011

Again I say: Such a man is the cause of terrorism?! I think too many people are willing to believe anything to keep their fantasies alive. For me, if it was true that the Coptic Church was keeping converts to Islam against their wills, I would say yes, release them! But the evidence that I have found from asking people who are actually in the Coptic Church tells me that: (1) The women did not convert to Islam to begin with; (2) Copts who do convert to Islam of their own free will are allowed to do so (of course when a Muslim wants to convert to Christianity, like Mohammed Hegazy, he can’t because other Muslims will kill him, but you don’t see Copts bombing mosques because of this!).

The problems come because the “converts” are usually underage girls who are taken from their parents either by seduction or by kidnapping, so their conversion isn’t made freely. And then when the parents or other relatives try to get them back, their real kidnappers say that the evil church is “kidnapping” the girl! It is crazy… :hypno:

And then there are stories like this one, which is not really uncommon. If Muslims looked into stories about the conversion of Christians to Islam with as much interest as they did after hearing the false rumor about Camelia Shehata, they would be ashamed by some of what they would find! Islam is not all clean, clear conversions and fairness…not at all…
 
Honestly Dzheremi trying to reason with those who actually believe this lunacy is ultimately unlikely to change anything

The muslims, or at least a great number of them are trapped in a delusion, they simply can;t accept that they are the cause, they are the problem causing the terror since they are held to believe that Islam is the “religion of peace” that it is the perfect way.

So they cling to lies to somehow justify the attacks on innocent christians and others as well throughout the world and attempt to shift the blame to the victims to make it somehow their fault! Combine this with the inherent anti-christianity within the Quran itself and you have the perfect conditions to perpetuate this sort of violent and godless ideology of terror. Quite a religion of peace isn;t it?

I suppose we have to hope that through our continued explanations God allows the light of truth to break through the multiple layers of ignorance that encapsulates the mind of not a small number of muslims

goodwill and peace to the copts and all christians in persecution that they may endure through the tribulations and scorns of their enemies, that they may walk in the light of the lord who is the giver of all life, that the Lord protects them in persecution and that His graces may fall upon them and lead them to the life in the world to come.

Amen
 
You are right, Jehoshua, about many Muslims being in denial about this situation. Luckily, Sam is not a person who believes in crazy conspiracies, so I think reasoning with him is not a lost cause at all. Consider it, if you will, my attempt to defend the Coptic Church and to show a side of this situation that probably is not seen or given fair hearing in Sam’s homeland. And we all benefit from reading the good Patriarch’s words, I think. I know I am comforted by them, and by reading your prayer for the Copts. Thank you for sharing that.
 
Mary of Guadalupe in Spain had this message…that all the faithful in the world, no matter what creed…will have eternal life through the Cross if they maintain peace with one another.

Certainly these heroic Muslims are in the truth of God when they say they must be together with the Christians…the conversion to peace and reciprocal relations are bearing fruit through the deaths of all the innocents being slaughtered…

Al Qaeda, ETC. are diminishing themselves every time they kill an innocent human being.
 
I was not referring to Sam in particular but to muslims in the middle east in general too mcuh ambiguity on my part i suppose.

And yes you are right we can all benefit from the wisdom of those who have devoted their lives to God, particularly those such as the patriarch who are shepherds for all christians and have the wisdom of many years.
 
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