Words of consecration & Eucharistic Miracle

[otjm]

Actually, it’s not a mistranslation…it must have been deliberate “mistranslation”. It was a deliberate CHANGE as it is impossible that the authorities who approved the NEW wording did not know it was NEW.

SFD

When I use the word “mistranslation” I do not imply that it was unwitting, nor do I imply that it was intentional. I simply say that pro multis is not correctly translated “for all”.

Given the fact that a word in English can have multiple meanings, and so can a word in Latin, I will not argue as to possible permutations of “multis”; we can all accept that what was said (pro multis) should not translate out for “all”. Whether or not “multis” can be translated to mean all, or the Greek from which the Latin was derived, or the Aramaic ferom which the Greek was derived I will leave to others.

And it is also possible that the authorities who approved the translation - read, those in the Vatican - knew that it was not a literal translation, but accepted it. The fact that they changed it does not mean that it was theologically incorrect (see my prior thread), but does mean that it was not accurate as to what was intended by the Latin phrase.

 

[SFD]

I doubt if SFD accepts English as a valid language for the Sacrifice of the Mass, and specifically for the words of Consecration.

Standing to his left is about 99 percent of the Catholic faithful.

If he could, he would burn Archbishop Bugnini at the stake as a ‘manifest heretic’, and Pope Pius IX, Pius XII, Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI.
peace

Mgrfin,

I have stated several times that I consider Pope Pius IX to be a great hero of the traditional resistance and enemy of liberalism and indifferentism. Pope Pius XII defined the Church as a body…as Leo XIII did.

I have repeatedly stated these things and you continue to accuse me of being opposed to them or now, wanting to “burn them at the stake”. Do you have any sense of honesty about you?

Or does the ‘end justify the means’ in your world?

SFD

 

[stmaria]

=mgrfin;3234482]So, you would allow for variations in translation?

Would accept the words:

“This is my Body”

“This is my Blood”

solely for the words of consecration?

The Baltimore Catechism says:
355. How do priests exercise their power to change bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ?
Priests exercise their power to change bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ by repeating at the Consecration of the Mass the words of Christ: “This is My Body … this is My blood.”

Those are the essential words. The Catechism doesn’t address *De Defectibus *by Pope Pius V. But then it doesn’t address everything the Church has alway taught.

Languages other than Latin for the Latin Rite weren’t permitted until Vatican 2. The changes came after that, legally and legitimattely

.

Actually Pope Pius V allowed the vernacular for any Mass more than 200 years old and said for 200 consecutive years.The vernacular was not allowed for the Tridentine Mass.

Latin in not essential to the words of consecration, despite Papal utterances to the contrary.

Papal utterances???

After all, the Eastern churches had laguages other than Latin, and their language did not affect the validity of the sacrament.

A different rite.

PS Dont put so much stock in degrees in theology. Martin Luther had one, and so did Doctors of the Church who erred from time to time.

Don’t worry. I don’t.

 

[mgrfin]

Mgrfin,

I have stated several times that I consider Pope Pius IX to be a great hero of the traditional resistance and enemy of liberalism and indifferentism. Pope Pius XII defined the Church as a body…as Leo XIII did.

I have repeatedly stated these things and you continue to accuse me of being opposed to them or now, wanting to “burn them at the stake”. Do you have any sense of honesty about you?

Or does the ‘end justify the means’ in your world?

SFD

You are confused. The end does not justify the means.

How about Leo XIII, and Pius XI, and Paul VI, and John Paul II, and Benedict XVI. To me, they are good and holy men.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

You like arguing for the sake of arguing.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

Mgrfin,

I have stated several times that I consider Pope Pius IX to be a great hero of the traditional resistance and enemy of liberalism and indifferentism. Pope Pius XII defined the Church as a body…as Leo XIII did.

I have repeatedly stated these things and you continue to accuse me of being opposed to them or now, wanting to “burn them at the stake”. Do you have any sense of honesty about you?

Or does the ‘end justify the means’ in your world?

SFD

You have taken positions on this website attacking the Papacy, accusing some of our Popes as being ‘manifest heretics’.

To your shame!

peace

 

[SFD]

No, I’m a totally dishonest, disreputable Roman Catholic.

You’ll get no argument here. peace.

SFD

 

[SFD]

You have taken positions on this website attacking the Papacy, accusing some of our Popes as being ‘manifest heretics’.

To your shame!

peace

mgrfin,

Please provide the evidence for your accusation. Where did I attack the Papacy?

SFD

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Going back years, I was told by an old Dutch priest that the words, “This is my body” and This is my blood" were the words of consecration. All the rest is explanation. This priest was the Vicar General of his diocese. I think he know what he was talking about. The language at this time makes no difference, so long as this is the true meaning. .
Deacon Ed B

 

[mgrfin]

mgrfin,

Please provide the evidence for your accusation. Where did I attack the Papacy?

SFD

Such thrreads have been closed by the Administration.

I am not going down that road with you again.It will also take this thread off-topic.

I will not do that.

peace

 

[SFD]

Such thrreads have been closed by the Administration.

I am not going down that road with you again.It will also take this thread off-topic.

I will not do that.

peace

Good.