Words of Consecration: What are they?

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What exactly are the words of consecration, and when does the substance of bread and wine change into the substance of Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity?

I’ve heard the words were simply “This is my body” and “This is my blood”.
If this case, could any priest with correct intention and valid matter simply say these words over bread & wine and change them into Our Lord?
 
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RomanRiteTeen:
What exactly are the words of consecration, and when does the substance of bread and wine change into the substance of Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity?

I’ve heard the words were simply “This is my body” and “This is my blood”.
If this case, could any priest with correct intention and valid matter simply say these words over bread & wine and change them into Our Lord?
That is correct. However the Church has said that they must not omit the rest of the Eucharistic prayer and the other parts of Mass without serious reason. Remember that many priests said Mass, essentially a complete Mass in foxholes with bullets flying over head. If anyone had good and sufficient reason to shorten things up it should have been them! But most didn’t and also heard Confessions before Mass many times under the same conditions.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
That is correct. However the Church has said that they must not omit the rest of the Eucharistic prayer and the other parts of Mass without serious reason. Remember that many priests said Mass, essentially a complete Mass in foxholes with bullets flying over head. If anyone had good and sufficient reason to shorten things up it should have been them! But most didn’t and also heard Confessions before Mass many times under the same conditions.
Bravo for the Post.
So, what are the consequences of doing it without a serious reason?
 
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RomanRiteTeen:
What exactly are the words of consecration, and when does the substance of bread and wine change into the substance of Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity?

I’ve heard the words were simply “This is my body” and “This is my blood”.
If this case, could any priest with correct intention and valid matter simply say these words over bread & wine and change them into Our Lord?
Here is a site that I was referred to which gives an adversarial view of this based on Historical Church documents.
From there, you’re on your own.
I just attend the TLM, and VOLIA, no questions needed.
 
But how do you know that the priest at the TLM is saying the words of consecration correctly, since you can’t hear them?
 
TNT said:
Here is a site that I was referred to which gives an adversarial view of this based on Historical Church documents.
From there, you’re on your own.
I just attend the TLM, and VOLIA, no questions needed.

The only problem with the argument made on that site is that some Eastern rite churches don’t use those words (for example the Byzantines). For something to be defined infallibly it must have been true always and everywhere. To infallibly proclaim that only the TLM’s specific words of consecration are valid it must be true that these have been the only valid words of consecration always and everywhere. Certain Eastern rites (like Byzantines) do not use those words (the mystery of faith part is missing). Now either they have and have always had invalid consecrations, or Florence etc. was only making a statement of discipline, not an infallible one. It would be changing the deposit of Faith to say that all of a sudden certain words of consecration that were once valid, are no longer so.

This site focuses on the words “many” and “all,” (they even show the Eastern words) but Florence declared the entire thing including "mystery of faith.’ This site picks and chooses which part Florence was declaring “infallibly.”
 
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Genesis315:
The only problem with the argument made on that site is that some Eastern rite churches don’t use those words (for example the Byzantines).
What words do they use?
Can I find a site? Or can you quote them here concerning the consecration?
The site concentrates on the form requiring *many *and the reasons. That was the point I was addressing.
Now, if “Mystery of faith” is required for the form, that would be another issue and it’s up to them if they choose to address it.
Thanks.
 
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TNT:
What words do they use?
Can I find a site? Or can you quote them here concerning the consecration?
The site concentrates on the form requiring *many *and the reasons. That was the point I was addressing.
Now, if “Mystery of faith” is required for the form, that would be another issue and it’s up to them if they choose to address it.
Thanks.
The site you linked to gave all the words of consecration for a bunch of Eastern rites (it’s a little more than half way down the page). Like wise, Florence stated “mystery of faith” as part of the words of consecration. It’s all on the site you linked to.

I apologize though, I misunderstood part of the argument .

They claim that the sacrament must signify what grace is affected. They say that the grace signified is the unity of Christ with Christians. They say the words “shall be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins” signifies the grace and that “It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven” does not do the same thing.

Jesus blood shed redeemed the whole world, everyone’s debt was paid. Now sins could be forgiven. Any sin commited now may be forgiven, no matter who commits it (it may take conversion and confession, but it’s available to anyone). Anyone may be saved if they so choose. Salvation is available to all. Christ’s blood was shed for “all,” but the Novus Ordo does not say that because of this sins “will” be forgiven. It says “may be forgiven.” This forgiveness/remission is available to all (shed for all), but only some will receive this forgiveness (sins may be forgiven). In this way the grace of the Eucharist is limited to those who receive it and unite themselves to Christ even though the blood was shed for all.

Notice how all the Eastern rites on the site you linked to use “many” but they also say “for the forgiveness of sins.” The sins of the many are forgiven. In the NO the sins of all “may” be forgiven, but only those affected by the grace “will” be forgiven (aka the many).

If that argument doesn’t work, I noticed another issue. They say that the grace signifed is the unity with Christ, but the wording mentioned seems to signify the forgiveness of sins, not the unity of Christ with Christians?

Any thoughts?

(I go to the TLM too so it’s a non-issue for me, but I like to give the Church the benefit od the doubt, I mean she has made it this far)
 
I also came across this argument, much better than my own from above, that many can also mean all:

"In 3 Esdras [Ezra] 8:3 we read: ‘Many have been created, but only a few shall be saved.’ It is clear that all have been created. But here the interest is not in the whole, but in the opposite of ‘few.’ Hence, ‘many’ is used, when it truth it means ‘all.’

"Mark 10:45 = Matthew 20:28 has Jesus’ words: ‘the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.’ That ‘for many’ ambiguous in itself, in fact is to be understood as ‘for all,’ proven by what we read in 1 Timothy 2:6: ‘Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all.’

But even if we didn’t have this authoritative interpretation, that ‘for many’ nonetheless should certainly be understood as ‘for all’ because the coming of Jesus (‘he came in order to give …’) is explicitly carried out for the purpose which can abundantly be shown to have as its object the whole world, i.e. the human race as a whole.

"John 3:16,17: ‘For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him … may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.’

"1 John 2:2: ‘he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.’

"1 John 4:14: ‘And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world.’

“1 Timothy 4:10: ‘… we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.’”

continued…
 
These texts, however, have the Eucharist itself in view:

"John 6:33: ‘For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.’

"John 6:51: ‘the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.’

This came from this article. There’s some more good stuff too you can read for yourself.

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur46.htm
 
Any thoughts?
Yeah, good post. T, these were the quotes I was looking for on the other thread. Can you post the link to them for me? You can say I was threatening you if you like. I haven’t been able to figure out how to link more than the entire thread vs. a certain post.
 
TNT WROTE:
Here is a site that I was referred to which gives an adversarial view of this based on Historical Church documents.
From there, you’re on your own.
I just attend the TLM, and VOLIA, no questions needed.
Oh boy, the brothers Dimond for an infallible source! What’s the saying?: “If you lay down with dogs, you are sure to get up with fleas”!

The following is an article by Br. Alexis Bugnolo:

Bro. Michael Dimond, O.S.B.'s

A VOICE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS

A Rebuttal

by Bro. Alexis Bugnolo

Recently very many Catholics throughout the United States of America received a copy of a Magazine, entitled A VOICE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, Issue #1, published by Most Holy Family Monastery of Fillmore, NY
14735-8755. This publication contained the following articles, “Has Rome Become The Seat of the Antichrist?”, “Immodesty, Marriage and NFP”, “Why is the New Mass Deadly?”, and “Outside The Church There is No Salvation.”
Since many who received this wish to know what a Traditional Catholic should think of the arguments presented by Bro. Michael Dimond, O.S.B., a brief comment is in order.

“Has Rome Become The Seat of the Antichrist?”

The validity of the concusion of any argument is founded upon the truth of its propositions and its logical form. Therefore I will constrain my comments to the crucial elements. First it is nothing new to say that “Rome will become the Seat of the Antichrist.” Already in the writings of St. Francis de Sales [Catholic Controversy, Tan Books] one finds this expression. St. Francis de Sales says that it was God’s will that St. Peter go to Rome so as to effect the chaining of the Beast for the “1000 years” spoken of in the Book of the Apocalypse. This 1000 years is according to the Fathers a symbolic time referring to the flourishing of Christianity on Earth. St. Francis explains that as long as the Roman Pontiff reigns over Rome the “Beast” will remained chained. However in the Last Days the city of Rome will revert to its former paganism and become the Seat of the Antichrist. Note however, that St. Francis de Sales said that the Pope as
Sucessor of St. Peter is the one appointed by God to appose the Antichrist and the Beast. To equate the Pope with the Antichrist is the dogma of Protestantism and even of the some eastern schismatics.
 
Secondly it is important to keep a historical perspective. The City of Rome was ruled by the Popes until September 20, 1870 when General Cadorna took the city and annexed it to the Italian Republic. Since then it has been the seat of the “Green House” one of the world Headquarters of Masonry. St. Maximilian Kolbe as a student, himself requested permission to evangelize the Masons who worked in the Green House, in which no doubt, like every Masonic Temple there is a cult of the Devil [cf. the classic Masonic Tome: Dogma & Morals] The expressed purpose of Masonry, as explained by that nefarious book, is the restoration of the ancient paganism of Egypt and Babylon, but in a better form, namely, in an manner organized to overthrow the True Religion revealed to the People of Israel and consummated in
Christ Jesus, which is now present in the Catholic Church. This is what Pope Leo XIII was refering to in his prayer to St. Michael which prefaces the official rite of exorcism. It has nothing to do with Vatican II.

Thirdly, it is important to remember that there is a difference between heresy and ambiguity. Heresy is the explicit and pertinacious post-baptismal denial of a teaching that hs been defined by the Magisterium as one to be held de fide divina et catholica definita, that is defined as to be held with divine and catholic faith. All other assertions, however bold or gross are not heresy de jure and thus cannot cause the forfeiting of an ecclesiatical office, whether in the old or new Code of Canon Law. Ambiguous statements are therefore essentially impossible of being heretical, inasmuch as they are ambiguous. Furthermore, even if one said or taught something manifestly heretical, one is not guilty of the sin of heresy until one refuses to be corrected. Then one becomes pertinacious.

An enlightening case in point is that of Pope John XXII who reigned in the early 14th century. During a homily he declared that no one, not even the Saints, behold the beatific vision; only the just after the Day of Judgement at the end of time. At this a brave Dominican Friar publically accused the Pope of heresy. In response (for Pope John had a fiery temper) the Pope excommunicated the friar for heresy . The head of the Order of Preachers then conferred with the learned theologians of his order and decided that in conscience he had to press the issue. Thereupon every Dominican preacher in the City of Rome, on the same day, began to denounce the Pope’s statement from the pupilts. This infuriated Pope John XXII and at the conciliatory efforts of his Cardinals, he appointed a commision to examine the deposit of faith regarding the question of when the beatific vision is enjoyed by the Saints. The commision found that from time immemorial Catholics have always believed that the souls of the Saints go straight to Heaven and behold the Beatific Vision. Informed of this result the Pope received the Sacrament of Confession, publically declared that he had spoken not as the Successor of St. Peter, but as a private theologian. The next day, he dropped dead. His immediate sucessor [Benedict XII] immediately issued a bull declaring the correct teaching to be de fide divina et catholica definita. Regarding the question of a Pope falling into heresy go to Michael Davies essay.
 
Fourth, Bro. Dimond’s chief charges of heresy against Pope John Paul II are entirely false. First, the teaching of Dignitatis humanae (the Vatican II Document on Religious Liberty) regards a question of the natural law and a matter that has never been proposed before or after by the Church as teaching to be held de fide divina et catholica. Even if Dignitatis humanae contradicted Pope Leo XIII’s Immortale Dei (November 1, 1885), both Pope John XXIII and Paul VI unanimously agreed that Vatican II documents did not intend to teach infallible doctrine (cf. preface to “Troubles with Gaudium et Spes” for references). And hence Pope John Paul II’s reaffirmation of Dignitatis humanae is not heretical. The teaching of Dignitatis humanae vis-á-vis the teaching of Popes Leo XIII, Pius IX etc. has been subjected
by the traditionalist Dominican Community to a 10 year theological inquiry, that included an examination of every Papal Document on the topic. For a copy of their findings you can write the Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer. As for Pope John Paul II’s statements on the Redemption of mankind, one must remember the distinction, long held in Catholic Theology, between the objective and subjective Redemption. The Objective Redemption is the work of wining the graces of the Redemption, which work Christ (and Mary with Him) worked on Golgotha. The Subjective Redemption is the actual application of those mertis to individuals. “To say that Christ redeemed all men from the power of the devil” is a perfectly Catholic statement. But to say that all men are saved simply because they are members of the human race, is quite another thing. All the statements Bro. Dimond brings forward on the question of the redemption can easily be understood as regards the objective redemption. In cases of such distinctions as these, the speaker always is due the benefit of the doubt, for charity thinketh no evil.

Fifth, as regards all the other statements, even if the Pope did say them as quoted (which is not at all proven since Bro. Dimond’s footnotes are so vague and cite second hand sources), Christ never promised that the Pope, as a person, would not fall into error, just that he would not impose heresy on the Church. There are many things erroneous in theology, philosophy and in other sciences which if held would not destroy the habit of supernatural faith in the soul of the person who held them. Error by definition is a theological category that comprises statements which are counter to truths of theology, philosophy, etc., which themselves not directly deal with matters which have been revealed by God and defnined as being so revealed by the Church. In short, holding error does not make one a heretic. And as such, one would still be Pope even if in error. Even St. Alphonsus dei Liguori admits this: “For who will not deny that the Pope can be obnoxious because of his errors?” [Theologia Moralis, vol. 2, n. 135, critical edition]. Needless to say that any other sin, such as sacrilege, blasphemy, fornication, etc., does not make the Pope a heretic.

Then there are Bro. Dimond’s misquotes. Take for example his quote of Vigesimus Quintus on p. 7, left column. He quotes the Pope saying, “attatched themselves only and uniquely to the previous liturgical forms very deplorably held as the one authority of the integrity of the Faith.” Whereas the Pope said, “altri, purtroppo, si sono ripiegati in maniera unilaterale ed esclusiva sulle forme liturgiche precedenti intese da alcuni di essi come unica garanzia di sicurezza nella fede.” Which in English is, “others, unfortunately, have attatched themselves in an unilateral and exclusive manner to the preceding liturgical forms, understood by some of them as the unique guarantee of security in the Faith.” If this is true of one quote, that is in a publically accessible document, how much more of other quotes presented by Bro. Dimond in obscure, rare publications?

Finally, I ask what is to be gained by Bro. Dimond’s assault on the legitimacy of Pope John Paul II and Pope Paul IV? If there has not been a true pope since Pope Pius XII then the Church has failed and Christ is a liar when He said, “The gates of Hell will never prevail against it (My Church)”.

Is Bro. Dimond, calling Our Lord Jesus Christ a liar? Better to pray for Our Pope, sinner though he be, that he may find grace, mercy, and strength to carry his heavy office faithfully until death.

This is just ONE aspect of the brothers Dimond errors. Elsewhere, Br. Bugnolo states that the Dimond Brothers CLIM to be Benedictines – but there is NO Benedictine orgainzation which recognize them as such.
 
I’ve heard the words were simply “This is my body” and “This is my blood”.
If this case, could any priest with correct intention and valid matter simply say these words over bread & wine and change them into Our Lord?
I remember the times of the Communist capture and imprisonment of Cardinals Mindzenty and Stepanic. The stories were told of frail old Cardinal Mindzenty being in jail, happening to have, from time to time, a scrap of bread and a few drops of wine with which he said Mass. No Missal, mind you, no Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, Introit, no chasuble or incense, no Altar Cards, etc. And he has to do things smartly - for he was under observation.

He would say a simple Offertory prayer, all he needed to say was "This is My Body’ and “This is My Blood” and consume the transubstantiated species - and the Sacrifice of the Mass had taken place under the very noses of his persecutors.

Isn’t our God awesome! And Merciful?
 
I do not doubt that the words “This is my body” and “This is my blood” are sufficient for a valid consecration.

However, these words are not necessary for a valid consecration. The Church has approved the Eucharistic prayers of Addai and Mari (two of the oldest in use in the Church) as valid.
 
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atsheeran:
I do not doubt that the words “This is my body” and “This is my blood” are sufficient for a valid consecration.

However, these words are not necessary for a valid consecration. The Church has approved the Eucharistic prayers of Addai and Mari (two of the oldest in use in the Church) as valid.
This is true, but also bizzare. The document uses some fairly singular phrasing, and while the canonical weight of it is not in question, a number of very orthodox theologians have questioned whether or not the spurious grammar was used that it might later be rescinded.
 
Hello!

Don’t have full answer but this might help - as far as I know, a priest cannot merely take valid matter and pronouce a few words over them and “ta da!” the Body and Blood of our Lord are there! There are many threads already in this Forum that can be read on this subject.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2
 
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atsheeran:
I do not doubt that the words “This is my body” and “This is my blood” are sufficient for a valid consecration.

However, these words are not necessary for a valid consecration. The Church has approved the Eucharistic prayers of Addai and Mari (two of the oldest in use in the Church) as valid.
“The Church” has not approved them; perhaps some in hierarhcy have, but this most clearly contradicts everything the Church has taught about the Sacraments in general and especially the Holy Eucharist. Cardinal Ratzinger even said a Mass WITHOUT WORDS OF CONSECRATION (at all) is valid?!! That is ridiculous.
 
EENS said:
“The Church” has not approved them; perhaps some in hierarhcy have, but this most clearly contradicts everything the Church has taught about the Sacraments in general and especially the Holy Eucharist. Cardinal Ratzinger even said a Mass WITHOUT WORDS OF CONSECRATION (at all) is valid?!! That is ridiculous.

Actually, it seems that “the Church” has approved these as valid, unless conclusions of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith which are approved by the pope are not authoritative enough.

This is from “The Guidelines for Admission to the Eucharist between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East” issued by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity:
As the Catholic Church considers the words of the Eucharistic Institution a constitutive and therefore indispensable part of the Anaphora or Eucharistic Prayer, a long and careful study was undertaken of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, from a historical, liturgical and theological perspective, at the end of which the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith on January 17th, 2001 concluded that this Anaphora can be considered valid. H.H. Pope John Paul II has approved this decision.
As for the Cardinal Ratzinger quote that a Mass without the words of consecration cannot be valid, the Church seems to have resolved this issue in regards to the Anaphora of Addai and Mari in this way (also from the above-quoted guidelines):
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.
But the fact remains that you won’t find the words of consecration in any *recognizable * (i.e., “This is my body”…“This is my blood”) form in these Eucharistic prayers.
 
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