Words of institution epiclesis and idolatry

[grandfather]

Point well taken and received about the gnats, I agree with you and thank you for pointing that out. My only point of contention was that I though that perhaps there was the possibility of Idolatry, however on closer inspection as I tried to indicate in my last post I do not think that this is the case.

I hope you have a blessed Holy week and Pascal celebration.

 

[dcointin]

The entire Divine Liturgy is an act of consecration, from “Blessed is the kingdom” to “Let us depart in peace”. To separate and reduce it to its least common denominator to determine what is necessary for validity is to not see it as the fullness of the mystery of our salvation. This kind of thinking also leads to the idea that only the consecration is necessary and the rest is adiaphora where anything can take place, which has led to the liturgical poverty we see today in far too many parishes.

 

[Monica4316]

If the Roman Church is wrong about the Species becoming the body and blood of Christ at the words of institution, isn’t she guilty of over 500 years of utter and explicit idolatry in asking the faithful to kneel and worship the host before Christ becomes present?

if the Church is wrong about this, then the early Church was wrong too. It would be 2000 years, not 500. Then St Justin Martyr who wrote about the Eucharist in 150 AD was wrong, and all the early Church Fathers. Even if they did not kneel (that’s more of a Western practice), they worshipped, even prostrated themselves before the Eucharist. It would also be hard to explain all the Eucharistic miracles. I guess what I’m saying is - it’s not wrong lol.

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

Wow! what a bunch of replies. I do not know how to address individuals in the forums, so i will try to answer different comments in this post.

Someone mentioned why I mentioned only the Roman Church. The reason for this is that it is only in the Roman church that the faithful are obliged to kneel and worship after the words of institution. in the Byzantine churches, the faithful are not obliged to give divine worship to the host before the epiclesis which occurs after the words of institution. Someone can of course correct me if I am wrong on this point.

Someone else mentioned that in the Roman church the epiclesis comes before the words of institution, i assume what is meant is “come Sanctifier…bless these gifts…” or

“O God, we pray that You will make this offering altogether blessed, approved, confirmed, worthy of reason and Your acceptance, so it may become for us the Body and Blood of Your dearly beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.”

correct?

because there is also a prayer after the words of institution asking the Holy Spirit to bring the gifts to the altar on high, that is sometimes referred to as an epiclesis.

In my opinion I think that the prayers said before the words of institution are an epiclesis and not so much the phrase after the words of institution (although it is a beautiful prayer).

The concept of it not being idolatry if it is wrong is interesting as one poster pointed out, because the worship is of Christ. I suppose if we take an example of a blind man who thinks that dead tree is Jesus and get down and worships it as Jesus, can we really say this is idolatry? It is mistaken identity at worst, but idolatry?

Does anyone know if in the Roman rite the epiclesis always came before the words of institution?

I remember reading something about when the Eastern churches see the Consecration as happening, compared to the Western rite… I’m afraid of getting it wrong though. But I just wanted to say, - during presanctified liturgy, I believe the Eastern Christians actually prostrate themselves before the Eucharist. The reason they don’t kneel is simply because they don’t kneel on Sundays, that’s all. Kneeling in the East is seen as different than in the West. In the East it’s like a penance, in the West, humility. Since penance is traditionally not allowed on Sundays, they don’t kneel. Christ is worshipped in the Eucharist though, I’m sure. It is really Him so why not

 

[dcointin]

I remember reading something about when the Eastern churches see the Consecration as happening, compared to the Western rite… I’m afraid of getting it wrong though. But I just wanted to say, - during presanctified liturgy, I believe the Eastern Christians actually prostrate themselves before the Eucharist. The reason they don’t kneel is simply because they don’t kneel on Sundays, that’s all. Kneeling in the East is seen as different than in the West. In the East it’s like a penance, in the West, humility. Since penance is traditionally not allowed on Sundays, they don’t kneel. Christ is worshipped in the Eucharist though, I’m sure. It is really Him so why not

That’s correct. When the Divine Liturgy is celebrate on days other than Sunday, we prostrate at the epeclesis. This is most certainly an act of adoration since this is truly our Lord in the mystery of the eucharist. It is just not our custom to reserve the eucharist for the purpose of adoration as it is in the west.

 

[Vico]

That’s correct. When the Divine Liturgy is celebrate on days other than Sunday, we prostrate at the epeclesis. This is most certainly an act of adoration since this is truly our Lord in the mystery of the eucharist. It is just not our custom to reserve the eucharist for the purpose of adoration as it is in the west.

Do you have the Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts?