work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

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You make plenty of sense, don’t worry 🙂 The protestant view is that hopefully good works SHOULD proceed from justification through faith. Sanctification is the result of an active faith. However, your salvation does not depend on the good works you do whereas Catholicism says it is a combination of faith AND works. Protestant theology focuses on the free gift of grace God gives us and at the moment of deep acceptance of the Cross, a willingness to be baptized and enter into a relationship with Christ, one receives the grace to be justified and justification is imputed.
It depends on the denomination and theological outlook. For instance Wesley and his holiness movement (seen to some extent in Methodism and the holiness i.e. Wesleyan Charismatic movements today) is very similar to the Catholic view. This stands in sharp contrast to the reformed view i.e. the Calvinist view. Take for instance this passage:

“I will cause them to walk in my commandments.”
(Ezekiel 11:20)


We (Calvinists) would not say that we are first regenerated by grace and then “hopefully” good works will result. In the first instance we should define the term works. There is both an internal and external element to works. In one sense works is obedience (the internal aspect); secondarily it is producing fruit (the external component).

Through Ezekiel we learn that regeneration by grace necessarily means God will “cause” us to walk in His commandments. It is a mistake to think the reformers believed this “internal” aspect of grace and regeneration (repentance and obedience) occurred at the instant of justification. It is viewed as a life long process.

However, it is equally erroneous to think that we believe one may continue to walk in sin. In the reformed tradition our change of heart whereby we begin to walk as a new man in Christ is witness to our calling. There are two elements to either obedience or outward works that produce fruit – there is the intention and then the subsequent action. We believe God causes both.

However, our reliance on God as our redeemer grows as we mature in Christ; but grow it must. That one can be saved without producing fruit is made evident by the story of Lot when he barely escaped Sodom. Though he was personally a Godly man, obedient to the law, he failed to even persuade his own family, as a result losing them all and barely escaping the flames himself.
Catholics don’t believe in imputation but rather infusion. Protestants look at what Paul says in Romans that we are “credited with righteousness” in terms of debits and credits. God knows we are sinners but through the merit of Christ, we are “declared righteous” or “considered” or “credited” as righteous even though we as sinners don’t deserve it.
Catholicism believes in infusion, which is different. God MAKES the Christian holy, changes the person and takes away the sin and infuses holiness. There is no declaration or imputation but rather an active change directly from God. Works added to grace earn and actively participate in this change according to Catholicism.
Imputation vs. infusion is a big difference between Catholics and Protestants. Google it and investigate it further in your investigations into Christianity…interesting concepts and ideas.
I would disagree with this characterization; at least as it applies to the reformed protestant (and Wesleyan for that matter) faiths. This may, perhaps, be an accurate depiction of the Lutheran faith (along with the contemporary Evangelical movement and its OSAS doctrine).
 
I would disagree with this characterization; at least as it applies to the reformed protestant (and Wesleyan for that matter) faiths. This may, perhaps, be an accurate depiction of the Lutheran faith (along with the contemporary Evangelical movement and its OSAS doctrine).
How do you figure? Have Calvinists stopped believing in the imputation of Christ’s righteousness in justification??
 
How do you figure? Have Calvinists stopped believing in the imputation of Christ’s righteousness in justification??
I disagree with how you frame our beliefs. We also think that regenerations creates a new man. Our old self dies and our new self, reborn of God, emerges. Here are some excerpts taken from a wonderful essay by George Whitfield, which does a far better job than I can in explaining the reformed perspective on sin:

*This blessed Spirit, who once moved on the face of the great deep; who over-shadowed the blessed Virgin before that holy child was born of her; who descended in a bodily shape, like a dove, on our blessed Lord, when he came up out of the water at his baptism; and afterwards came down in fiery tongues on the heads of all his Apostles at the day of Pentecost: this is the Holy Ghost, who must move on the faces of our souls; this power of the Most High, must come upon us, and we must be baptized with his baptism and refining fire, before we can be stiled true members of Christ’’ mystical body.

Thus says the Apostle Paul, “Know ye not that Jesus Christ is in you, (that is, by his Spirit) unless you are reprobates?” And, “If any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his,” And again, says St. John, “We know that we are his, by the Spirit that he hath given us.”

. . .

Accordingly we read, that soon after Adam had fallen, he complained that he was naked; naked, not only as to his body, but naked and destitute of those divine graces which, before decked and beautified his soul. The unhappy mutiny, and disorder which the visible creation fell into, the briars and thorns which not sprung up and overspread the earth, were but poor emblems, lifeless representations of that confusion and rebellion, and those divers lusts and passions which sprung up in, and quite overwhelmed the soul of man immediately after the fall. Alas! he was now no longer the image of the invisible God; but as he had imitated the devil’s sin, he became as it were a partaker of the devil’s nature, and from an union with, sunk into a state of direct enmity against God.

Now in this dreadful disordered condition, are all of us brought into the world: for as the root is, such must the branches be. Accordingly we are told, “That Adam beget a son in his own likeness;” or, with the same corrupt nature which he himself had, after he had eaten the forbidden fruit. And experience as well as scripture proves, that we also are altogether born in sin and corruption; and therefore incapable, whilst in such a state, to hole communion with God. For as light cannot have communion with darkness, so God can have no communion with such polluted sons of Belial.

It must be confessed, indeed, that this spirit of supplication is often as it were sensibly lost, and decays, for some time, even in those who have actually received the Holy Ghost. Through spiritual dryness and barrenness of soul, they find in themselves a listlessness and backwardness to this duty of prayer; but then they esteem it as their cross, and still persevere in seeking Jesus, though it be sorrowing: and their hearts, notwithstanding, are fixed upon God, though they cannot exert their affections so strongly as usual, on account of that spiritual deadness, which God, for wise reasons, has suffered to benumb their souls.

But as for the formal believer, it is not so with him: no; he either prays not at all, or if he does enter into his closet, it is with reluctance, out of custom, or to satisfy the checks of his conscience. Whereas, the true believer can no more live without prayer, than without food day by day. And he finds his soul as really and perceptibly fed by the one, as his body is nourished and supported by the other.

SECOND scripture mark of our having received the Holy Ghost, is, Not committing sin.

“Whosoever is born of God, (says St. John) sinneth not, neither can he sin, because his seed remaineth in him.” Neither can he sin. This expression does not imply the impossibility of a Christian’s sinning: for we are told, that “in many things we offend all:” It only means thus much: that a man who is really born again of God, doth not willfully commit sin, much less live in the habitual practice of it. For how shall he that is dead to sin, as every converted person is, live any longer therein?

It is true, a man that is born again of God, may, through surprise, or the violence of a temptation, fall into an act of sin: witness the adultery of David, and Peter’s denial of his Master. But then, like them, he quickly rises again, goes out from the world, and weeps bitterly; washes the guilt of sin away by the tears of sincere repentance, joined with faith in the blood of Jesus Christ; takes double heed to his ways for the future, and perfects holiness in the fear of God.*

Other marks of the Holy Ghost included in this article are: loving one another and loving our enemies.

George Whitefield
Sermon 42
Marks of having Received the Holy Ghost (reformed.org)).
 
I disagree with how your frame our beliefs. We also think that regenerations creates a new man. Our old self dies and our new self, reborn of God, emerges. Here are some excerpts taken from a wonderful essay by George Whitfield, which does a far better job than I can in explaining the reformed perspective on sin:
We also hold that regeneration creates a new man alongside the dying/dead old nature. Sanctification is infusion; justification is imputation. Rome melds the two together without distinction.

When you responded to gurney it seemed like you were disagreeing with his statement that Protestants believe justification is by imputation.
 
I’m curious as to how folks view this verse from Philippians 2:12-13?

Here’s some commentary I found that coincides with my view:

with fear and trembling–the very feeling enjoined on “servants,” as to what ought to accompany their “obedience” (Ephesians 6:5). So here: See that, as “servants” to God, after the example of Christ, ye be so “with the fear and trembling” which becomes servants; not slavish fear, but trembling anxiety not to fall short of the goal (1 Corinthians 9:26,27, Hebrews 4:1, “Let us fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any should come short of it”), resulting from a sense of our human insufficiency, and from the consciousness that all depends on the power of God, “who worketh both to will and to do” (Romans 11:20). “Paul, though joyous, writes seriously” [J. J. WOLF].

searchgodsword.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=php&chapter=002

Blessings
I think Charlie in post two, spoke true.

Also in Phillipians we have the passage…“For I am convinced that he is able to keep what I have commited to him against that day.”

He is the “Keeper”…I may fall short, but in Him is my trust…in Him is my faith to keep me against that day…He is faithful even if I am not always so.
 
We also hold that regeneration creates a new man alongside the dying/dead old nature. Sanctification is infusion; justification is imputation. Rome melds the two together without distinction.

When you responded to gurney it seemed like you were disagreeing with his statement that Protestants believe justification is by imputation.
Not only are we “imparted” a righteousness through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, but we too are “imputed” a righteousness not our own…His Righteousness is “imputed” to me as well as “imparted”.
 
It says “there is no once saved always saved.” It is part of the idea that everyday I must keep on the right path.
 
Not only are we “imparted” a righteousness through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, but we too are “imputed” a righteousness not our own…His Righteousness is “imputed” to me as well as “imparted”.
And the impartation is not justification. Therein lies the distinction.
 
And the impartation is not justification. Therein lies the distinction.
The “imparting” is His Spirit, Him living within us…“It is not I that live but Christ who lives withing me…” It is the regeneration of my spirit…becoming a “new creation”. I am justified by faith in Him…His righteousness is “imputed” to me for justification…His work, not mine. I am given a new “will”, a new cleansed “spirit” to walk in His ways and do His will, I am “imparted” the will to do right, even if imperfect…but the will to follow Him is part of my being. Partaking of the Divine Nature.
 
The “imparting” is His Spirit, Him living within us…“It is not I that live but Christ who lives withing me…” It is the regeneration of my spirit…becoming a “new creation”. I am justified by faith in Him…His righteousness is “imputed” to me for justification…His work, not mine. I am given a new “will”, a new cleansed “spirit” to walk in His ways and do His will, I am “imparted” the will to do right, even if imperfect…but the will to follow Him is part of my being. Partaking of the Divine Nature.
Okay. I can agree with everything you say here 🙂
 
We also hold that regeneration creates a new man alongside the dying/dead old nature. Sanctification is infusion; justification is imputation. Rome melds the two together without distinction.

When you responded to gurney it seemed like you were disagreeing with his statement that Protestants believe justification is by imputation.
Not at all (refer to excerpts from an article by George Whitefield I included in this post).

There is divergence regarding justification and sanctification in the protestant community. For instance Wesley did largely agree with the reformed view that we should not conflate the two concepts. However, modern developments within the broader Wesleyan community (namely the “holiness movement”), through their interpretation of the theory of “entire sanctification,” seem to conflate the ideas justification and sanctification in a similar way as Rome.

To help me explain the reformed view I turn some ideas taken from an article by John Piper; and I will also paste an excerpt from the article, which contains an analogy I find useful.

Piper begins by using Romans 4:3-6 to make his point. In verse 3 Paul quotes from Genesis 15:6 “For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” The point of Genesis 15:6 as taken up by Romans 4, is that Abraham was regarded as a righteous, that is, covenant keeping, person when he continued to place his trust in God’s promise of a seed.

If you work, your wages are credited to your debt; if you don’t work, your wages are still credited to your account according to your debt, but it is according to grace.

The point is no work can compensate for the debt we owe.

Faith is not the “wage” that is credited, but rather the abandonment of all claims to be righteous. Instead it is trust in Him who counts the ungodly to be righteous.

Piper uses a great analogy to make his point:

*Suppose I say to Barnabas, my teenage son, “Clean up your room before you go to school. You must have a clean room, or you won’t be able to go watch the game tonight.” Suppose he plans poorly and leaves for school without cleaning the room. And suppose I discover the messy room and clean it. His afternoon fills up and he gets home just before it’s time to leave for the game and realizes what he has done and feels terrible. He apologizes and humbly accepts the consequences. No game.

To which I say, “Barnabas, I am going to credit the clean room to your account because of your apology and submission. Before you left for school this morning I said, ‘You must have a clean room, or you won’t be able to go watch the game tonight. Well, your room is clean. So you can go to the game.”

That’s one way to say it, which corresponds to the language of Romans 4:6. Or I could say, “I credit your apology for a clean room,” which would correspond to the language of Romans 4:3 and 5. What I mean when I say, “I credit your apology for a clean room,” is not that the apology is the clean room; nor that the clean room consists of the apology; nor that he really cleaned his room. I cleaned it. It was pure grace.* All I mean is that, in my way of reckoning ? in my grace ? his apology connects him with the promise given for a clean room. The clean room is his clean room.

desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/2003/1522_John_Piper_Responds_to_Don_Garlington_on_the_Imputation_of_Righteousness/
 
Not at all (refer to excerpts from an article by George Whitefield I included in this post).

There is divergence regarding justification and sanctification in the protestant community. For instance Wesley did largely agree with the reformed view that we should not conflate the two concepts. However, modern developments within the broader Wesleyan community (namely the “holiness movement”), through their interpretation of the theory of “entire sanctification,” seem to conflate the ideas justification and sanctification in a similar way as Rome.
I would agree. This is an error within Arminianism in a larger context aside from the holiness movement.

Lutherans are on the same page with Calvinists when it comes to justification and sanctification.
 
I would agree. This is an error within Arminianism in a larger context aside from the holiness movement.

Lutherans are on the same page with Calvinists when it comes to justification and sanctification.
👍
 
I would disagree with this characterization; at least as it applies to the reformed protestant (and Wesleyan for that matter) faiths. This may, perhaps, be an accurate depiction of the Lutheran faith (along with the contemporary Evangelical movement and its OSAS doctrine).

I welcome the disagreement. Being a Catholic but trying to help answer Notsmart’s question about faith and works, protestant and catholic perspectives, I just tried from what I know of protestantism to answer her question. You being a reformed protestant, you’d certainly know better than I that perspective. I guess I was coming more from a lutheran angle. In any case…
 
I would disagree with this characterization; at least as it applies to the reformed protestant (and Wesleyan for that matter) faiths. This may, perhaps, be an accurate depiction of the Lutheran faith (along with the contemporary Evangelical movement and its OSAS doctrine).
I welcome the disagreement. Being a Catholic but trying to help answer Notsmart’s question about faith and works, protestant and catholic perspectives, I just tried from what I know of protestantism to answer her question. You being a reformed protestant, you’d certainly know better than I that perspective. I guess I was coming more from a lutheran angle. In any case…
No worries, I just like to make sure non-reformed Christians understand our doctrines properly (they are commonly misunderstood).

Blessings
 
I’m curious as to how folks view this verse from Philippians 2:12-13?
Therefore, because of Christ’s sacrifice, we are to take hold of what God offers, accepting His grace and working toward becoming mature in Christ. Note the cooperation: we work out our own salvation (v. 12) while it is God who works in us to do His will (v. 13).
OSB
 
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