Working hard to get ahead [Makers and Takers]

[rlg94086]

Hi all,

I just heard an interview on the radio with the author of a new book which sounds like it may be interesting to read and discuss: Makers and Takers:

I’ve attached a poll regarding the difference in attitudes toward hard work and getting ahead, but there are a lot of other comparisons. The results he mentioned from sources like General Social Surveys (published, accademically accepted, neutral surveys) were 80% of conservatives said ‘yes’ and 14% of liberals said ‘no.’

Another example was on the question of “is marriage important to you” posed to singles: 67% of conservatives said ‘yes,’ and only 35% of liberals said ‘yes.’

Other examples from the book summary on the hyperlink above:

• Seventy-one percent of conservatives say you have an obligation to care for a seriously injured spouse or parent versus less than half (46 percent) of liberals
• Conservatives have a better work ethic and are much less likely to call in sick than their liberal counterparts
• Liberals are two and a half times more likely to be resentful of others’ success and 50 percent more likely to be jealous of other people’s good luck
• Liberals are two times more likely to say it is ok to cheat the government out of welfare money you don’t deserve
• Conservatives are more likely than liberals to hug their children and “significantly more likely” to display positive nurturing emotions
• Liberals are less trusting of family members and much less likely to stay in touch with their parents
• Do you get satisfaction from putting someone else’s happiness ahead of your own? Fifty-five percent of conservatives said yes versus only 20 percent of liberals

I’ve heard a lot of charges against conservatives on this forum regarding how conservatives, especially Republicans, don’t reflect Catholic values. I think it would be a fun thing to hash out. Let’s try to do it in a charitable fashion…if possible.

 

[strngrnrth]

I’ve been an extreme liberal, because that’s how I was raised, and now I see myself as a moderate. Liberals, from what I’ve experienced, see the world as divided into those who care and those who don’t, and choices as between hurting others to get ahead and helping others at one’s own expense. They are likely to feel resentful of wealth, not because they are begrudging by nature, but because they see wealth as proof of uncaring. I have often heard the refrain, “People like (X), who do what suits them and put other people down, ride around in limos while people like (Y), who work hard on their own time caring for the People, sleep on foam on the dirt.” Reminding them that these are exaggerations and anyway X and Y are unusual cases, and most people do some things for others, some things for themselves, and lots of things that benefit themselves as well as others, does little good. They see activity as either for oneself or for others, and whomever it isn’t for, it must be against. They often have a deep desire for the feeling of family and have less of it than they want, which might explain why some feel less plugged into their families. Sometimes people withdraw where they don’t feel their needs are met. Instead, they seek family-closeness and communalism (family economics) in a chosen, usually larger, group.
Conservatives see it very differently. Many are close to their families because their families are all they have for emotional support and because they compete so much in the larger world that home is the only place of relaxation and cooperation. They don’t see the world as divided between selfish and self-sacrificing activities but between productive and unproductive activities. Therefore they see liberal avoidance of competitiona s a lazy fear of effort, when it is actually a wish to feel kind and close to everyone. Liberals tend to see conservatives’ attempts to develop efficient ways of producing things people want as materialistic and suspiciously self-serving.
Most people are in the middle, as I am, because we can see that society can’t be a family and a family can’t be a whole society. Competition and cooperation both make sense in the public sphere. Families are important but not everyone has one. You should always try to be kind to everyone but there are situations where someone will probably be hurt no matter what. These facts make it impractical to try to stay all the way to to the left or the right. Instead most of us take each situation on its own and get hte facts.

 

[ribozyme]

Here’s something about Peter Singer (who can be deemed a liberal):

The first order of business was to choose a restaurant. Singer had only put forth one requirement: there had to be a vegan entrée on the menu. But as a good utilitarian, I knew I had to weigh a parade of other factors. His hotel was in Santa Monica, so I chose a place nearby so as to save fuel and not contribute to global warming. I selected a totally vegan place, as a gesture to encourage exemplary establishments to be fruitful and multiply. I ultimately decided it was ok for the restaurant to be situated in Santa Monica after grappling with whether the area is more or less moral than surrounding communities.

I picked up Singer from his hotel and flipped on the car’s air conditioning because I wanted my important guest to be comfortable. In a polite way, he explained how my action was destroying the environment and suggested we simply lower the windows. I couldn’t believe it; I had already screwed up! I quietly chastised myself for failing to make the necessary moral calculation.

My second test came when I was confronted with whether I should make a left turn; and in so doing, hold up a long line of vehicles behind me. The alternative was to drive all the way to a signal light, turn onto a less busy street, do a three-point turn into a driveway, go back to the original intersection and make a right turn, an undertaking that would take an extra five minutes. Most people in our “I’m entitled,” me-first society feel morally justified in holding up a long line of other drivers, some who may be rushing to an emergency or who may be late for a critical appointment. But would a utilitarian come to this conclusion? I decided not and opted to inconvenience only my erudite passenger and myself.

thesimon.com/magazine/articles/telling_stories/01407_guess_whos_coming_dinner_controversial_peter_singer.html

I also wonder how many liberal are vegetarians or vegans. That is sacrificing sometime to prevent the pain of others.

How does the book define “liberal”? Are “liberals” simply people who vote “Democratic”? But I do not find modern liberalism palatable. I doubt that liberals know what liberalism is and they do not read books such as* Practical Ethics and A Theory of Justice* to develop their own morals. It seems liberalism is rather vacuous and consists of chants such as “yes we can,” and rants against Bush. Perhaps a few are rather sincere liberals, but I do not see any sincerity in the majority of soi-disant liberals.

However, I still agree with liberal policies.

• Conservatives are more likely than liberals to hug their children and “significantly more likely” to display positive nurturing emotions

• Liberals are less trusting of family members and much less likely to stay in touch with their parents

From personal experience and some studies that I have read I can agree with that.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Here’s something about Peter Singer (who can be deemed a liberal):

I picked up Singer from his hotel and flipped on the car’s air conditioning because I wanted my important guest to be comfortable. In a polite way, he explained how my action was destroying the environment and suggested we simply lower the windows.

Next time you run into Peter Singer, explain to him that modern cars burn less gas with the windows rolled up, even if the air conditioner is on.

 

[rlg94086]

How does the book define “liberal”? Are “liberals” simply people who vote “Democratic”? But I do not find modern liberalism palatable. I doubt that liberals know what liberalism is and they do not read books such as* Practical Ethics and A Theory of Justice* to develop their own morals. It seems liberalism is rather vacuous and consists of chants such as “yes we can,” and rants against Bush. Perhaps a few are rather sincere liberals, but I do not see any sincerity in the majority of soi-disant liberals.

Hi Ribozyme,

Excellent question.

It is a self-identified term. Someone called in to the talk show to ask the author that. What he explained is that the surveyors who compile such data ask the respondant to describe themselves with the following options:

very liberal
somewhat liberal
moderate
somewhat conservative
very conservative

He didn’t say it, but I’m assuming that conservative and liberal data is a weighted average between the "very"s and "somewhat"s. I’m not sure though. Interestingly, he said on most of the data there is a strong correlation between the self-identification and the other responses. IOW…for the “working hard to get ahead” range of 80% (conservative) and 14% (liberal) the self-described moderates would be somewhere in the middle. Now, I know that sounds like it would be intuitive, but what is interesting is the apparent link between political outlook and these values.

 

[cynic]

Ahh another inflammatory topic based on hatred and labelling people. You see anyone who disagrees with OP, or the author or this book, on any issue, who isn’t strictly conservative in all ways can be described as:

*somone who doesn’t care about their family

*lazy

*resentful (the old eny mantra again, how boring)

*more likely to abuse welfare

*unable to show affection (didn’t Richard Nixon give his mother a handshake instead of a hug on her birthday )

*generally selfish

 

[jmcrae]

The answer to the original question is, “It depends on who values your hard work, and how much they can afford to pay you.”

Hard work in and of itself pays nothing. It’s who wants you to do it, and how much they think it’s worth, that makes all the difference.

When I build web sites, I get anything from $20.00 an hour, broken down into six-minute segments worth $2.00 each, to $50.00 for turning on the computer and copy/pasting a few lines of text, which takes a minute or less.

Two different clients, obviously, who put two completely different values on the same work. Obviously, “working hard” for client #2 is going to be way more profitable than “working hard” for client #1. (Guess which client has my home phone number? )

 

[cynic]

Another characterization:

People who identify as strongly conservation are ussually materialistic egotists who get off on making money and acquiring assets, ‘things’ to make them feel more worthy - and they can never have enough.

Their principle pleasure is deriding those who are less successful. Life is a game and they must be it’s winners, while others must be losers, otherwise their success is meaningless. Without this dynamic they would be without motivation for anything. Competing and being better than others is what drives them.
…

But then that would be a derogatory generalisation about a large number of people I didn’t know…

 

[onetimeposter]

What about New Democrats or Greens? LOL, I love all those far reaching claims that pigeon holes everyone.

 

[rlg94086]

Another characterization:

People who identify as strongly conservation are ussually materialistic egotists who get off on making money and acquiring assets, ‘things’ to make them feel more worthy - and they can never have enough.

Their principle pleasure is deriding those who are less successful. Life is a game and they must be it’s winners, while others must be losers, otherwise their success is meaningless. Without this dynamic they would be without motivation for anything. Competing and being better than others is what drives them.
…

But then that would be a derogatory generalisation about a large number of people I didn’t know…

Okay…if you have data from academic surveys to back up your characterizations, go for it.

 

[rlg94086]

What about New Democrats or Greens? LOL, I love all those far reaching claims that pigeon holes everyone.

I’m not sure how self-identified designations of liberal and conservative in a survey pigeon holes anyone. Surveys are questions, not accusations. The author is providing the data from the surveys.

Btw…there is no party affiliation mentioned.

 

[East_and_West]

Another characterization:

People who identify as strongly conservation are ussually materialistic egotists who get off on making money and acquiring assets, ‘things’ to make them feel more worthy - and they can never have enough.

Their principle pleasure is deriding those who are less successful. Life is a game and they must be it’s winners, while others must be losers, otherwise their success is meaningless. Without this dynamic they would be without motivation for anything. Competing and being better than others is what drives them.
…

But then that would be a derogatory generalisation about a large number of people I didn’t know…

A generalization that complete disregards the findings of this study.

 

[consumedconvert]

The more I follow politics, the more I’m convinced that Catholics don’t have a party.

Even those who claim to be pro-life often only pay lip-service.

So I just try to stay out of it for the most part anymore. The most I really do is try to figure out who to vote for. The political life is just not for me.

As for the conservative-liberal paradigm, I love the conservative talk show hosts some of the time, can’t stand them some of the time. So I’m either a moderate or a conservative-moderate.

Or, better yet, I’m just me.

 

[rlg94086]

The more I follow politics, the more I’m convinced that Catholics don’t have a party.

Even those who claim to be pro-life often only pay lip-service.

So I just try to stay out of it for the most part anymore. The most I really do is try to figure out who to vote for. The political life is just not for me.

Again, there were no parties mentioned by the author, and as far as I understand the survey just asks people to identify themselves from Liberal to Conservative.

consumedconvert:

As for the conservative-liberal paradigm, I love the conservative talk show hosts some of the time, can’t stand them some of the time. So I’m either a moderate or a conservative-moderate.

Or, better yet, I’m just me.

We are all just me…well… you know what I mean.

That’s fine…a lot of people describe themselves as moderate. For some, it means they are in the middle on everything. For others, it means they have mixed views on the major issues. For me, I would probably fall on the “somewhat conservative.” I am more moderate in some of my views (e.g. immigration), but conservative on most views.

 

[cynic]

Okay…if you have data from academic surveys to back up your characterizations, go for it.

and it was just an example of an unfair generalization.
Hence this:

But then that would be a derogatory generalisation about a large number of people I didn’t know…

A generalization that complete disregards the findings of this study.

This ‘research’ has been done by someone with an agenda - just look at the book title and imagine the contents of his survey(loaded questions that will give the author the desired results)

 

[rlg94086]

My characterization was just an example of an unfounded generalization, and this ‘data’ is based on the research of someone with an agenda.

The survey results are not from a conservative thinktank. The only one I remember the author mentioning was the GSS or Global Social Survey: norc.org/projects/General+Social+Survey.htm , but the others are supposed to be similar academic surveys. To say that these groups have agendas is interesting.

I guess I will have to buy the book and see if one of the survey questions compare the belief in vast conspiracies.

 

[cynic]

Other titles by the author:

Do as I Say (Not as I Do): Profiles in Liberal Hypocrisy

Victory: The Reagan Administration’s Secret Strategy That Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union

Reagan’s war : the epic story of his forty year struggle and final triumph over communism

:ehh:

Now tell me that there is no agenda.

 

[mapleoak]

Here’s something about Peter Singer (who can be deemed a liberal):
.
.
.
.
I picked up Singer from his hotel and flipped on the car’s air conditioning because I wanted my important guest to be comfortable. In a polite way, he explained how my action was destroying the environment and suggested we simply lower the windows. I couldn’t believe it; I had already screwed up! I quietly chastised myself for failing to make the necessary moral calculation.

I mentioned once before about taking this character too seriously.

 

[rlg94086]

Other titles by the author:

Do as I Say (Not as I Do): Profiles in Liberal Hypocrisy

Victory: The Reagan Administration’s Secret Strategy That Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union

Reagan’s war : the epic story of his forty year struggle and final triumph over communism

:ehh:

Now tell me that there is no agenda.

I didn’t say the author wasn’t biased.

You said, "This ‘research’ has been done by someone with an agenda - just look at the book title and imagine the contents of his survey(loaded questions that will give the author the desired results)"

That is a false accusation, since the surveys weren’t done by the author or even by his request. He took the research data and wrote a book about the results. While you may not like the results, there is no evidence that the survey questions and results are biased.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Another characterization:

People who identify as strongly conservation are ussually materialistic egotists who get off on making money and acquiring assets, ‘things’ to make them feel more worthy - and they can never have enough.

Like George Soros, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffet?

Their principle pleasure is deriding those who are less successful. Life is a game and they must be it’s winners, while others must be losers, otherwise their success is meaningless. Without this dynamic they would be without motivation for anything. Competing and being better than others is what drives them.
…

Like George Soros, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffet?

But then that would be a derogatory generalisation about a large number of people I didn’t know…

Indeed it would.