Working hard to get ahead [Makers and Takers]

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I really only see one person this thread making sweeping derogatory comments about groups of people. And doing so using the very pejorative and uncharitable language.

And it is not the OP.

Common sense and personal experience seem to intuitively confirm the results of this survey.
 
cynic said:
Other titles by the author:

Do as I Say (Not as I Do): Profiles in Liberal Hypocrisy

Victory: The Reagan Administration’s Secret Strategy That Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union

Reagan’s war : the epic story of his forty year struggle and final triumph over communism

:ehh:

Now tell me that there is no agenda.
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Well, as to the last two, we actually DID triumph over communism, and Reagan played a big part. Those are not biased statements.

God Bless
 
ribozyme said:
Here’s something about Peter Singer (who can be deemed a liberal):
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Ribozyme, you seem like a decent guy.

How can you put any credence in Peter Singer?

He supports MURDERING people who are inconvenient.

Unfortunately, this trend seems to run through modern “liberal” (I know they’re not really liberal, more like socialist/secularist)movements.

God Bless
 
I’m really sick of the divisive political labels that have been thrust onto people and worn like a badge of honor by many over the past 20 years or so. This book’s author appears to be pandering to his base crowd in order to make a buck.

I find extreme and rigid thinking unappealing whether it is from the far left or right end of the spectrum because it places a damper on genuine discussion. I’m an American and a Catholic and that defines my values (issue by issue), not some political label that has no real definition.
 
rpp said:
I really only see one person this thread making sweeping derogatory comments about groups of people. And doing so using the very pejorative and uncharitable language.
.
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And I made sure that comment was put in it’s context - derogatory and uncharitable - because that obviously is the tone in which this book is written.
 
rlg94086 said:
I didn’t say the author wasn’t biased.

You said, "This ‘research’ has been done by someone with an agenda - just look at the book title and imagine the contents of his survey(loaded questions that will give the author the desired results)"

That is a false accusation, since the surveys weren’t done by the author or even by his request. He took the research data and wrote a book about the results. While you may not like the results, there is no evidence that the survey questions and results are biased.
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Many of the questions might be put in a way that would appeal to conservatives more than liberals. For example your poll question “Do you believe you can still get ahead through hard work?” Get ahead of who, or what? It’s the kind hackneyed phrase that turns off a lot of people.
 
cynic said:
Many of the questions might be put in a way that would appeal to conservatives more than liberals. For example your poll question “Do you believe you can still get ahead through hard work?” Get ahead of who, or what? It’s the kind hackneyed phrase that turns off a lot of people.
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…but only liberals are “turned off”…:hmmm:…:newidea: A new survey question!

“Are you turned off by hackneyed phrases?”

Seriously, I think you are making a strange point. If academics doing a national survey ask such a question (which IMO 99% of Americans know the meaning of), what makes you think it would only appeal to conservatives…other than the idea of working hard being completely foreign to liberals. 😉
 
rlg94086 said:
…but only liberals are “turned off”…:hmmm:…:newidea: A new survey question!

“Are you turned off by hackneyed phrases?”

Seriously, I think you are making a strange point. If academics doing a national survey ask such a question (which IMO 99% of Americans know the meaning of), what makes you think it would only appeal to conservatives…other than the idea of working hard being completely foreign to liberals. 😉
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Otherwise moderate people might answer in the negative to this, aswell as other such questions with moral overtones, just because they find them annoying. Your poll - 9 have disagreed, but do they really believe that hard work insn’t neccessary to achieve anything?
 
cynic said:
Otherwise moderate people might answer in the negative to this, aswell as other such questions with moral overtones, just because they find them annoying. Your poll - 9 have disagreed, but** do they really believe that hard work insn’t neccessary to achieve anything**?
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Of course not…I was joking.

I’m guessing what a person who disagrees believes is that you can’t get ahead with hard work - either because they believe you need to know someone; you need to be born into a “priviledged” existence; we are all doomed; etc. They most probably believe that all hard work is going to get them is more tired and still broke.

I disagree, but then I went from a single-parent household…mom was a secretary…rented…I’m guessing either upper lower class or lower middle class. I’m not sure how you rate these things. I did not finish my college degree. I started my career in the field of high tech in an just above entry-level job in credit/collections after leaving my job as a bank teller. I still worked evenings as a waiter. Due to my hard work, I am a very successful field salesperson in the high tech industry. I’ve had low periods - laid off for 6 months and had to take a lower paid job and work my way up in a different part of the industry. But, overall, I’ve done okay for myself.

I don’t say all that to brag. There are certainly more successful people than me, and I’m sure most of them had to work hard as well. My point is only that I very much believe that you can get ahead by working hard.

Also, I was a liberal through the first part of all that hard work. I didn’t become a conservative until the mid-90s…after having two kids and buying my first home. So, I don’t believe that hard work is an exclusively conservative value. That is silly. However, the survey results do tell us something about optimism and desires.

A similar survey question was a ranking of the most important things when assessing a job opportunity. For conservatives, the number one was chance for advancement. For liberals, the number one was pay and number two was vacation time. I find the answers interesting.

BTW…how is “I don’t know” the same as disagreeing?? 😛
 
rlg94086 said:
Of course not…I was joking.
I’m guessing what a person who disagrees believes is that you can’t get ahead with hard work - either because they believe you need to know someone; you need to be born into a “priviledged” existence; we are all doomed; etc. They most probably believe that all hard work is going to get them is more tired and still broke.
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Or perhaps money, cars, and a nice house doesn’t motivate them.
rlg94086 said:
A similar survey question was a ranking of the most important things when assessing a job opportunity. For conservatives, the number one was chance for advancement. For liberals, the number one was pay and number two was vacation time. I find the answers interesting.
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Because… you’re against vacations? At the risk of sounding lazy, and I’m probably lazy compared to a lot of peple, the idea of doing one thing for just about all of your waking life, with no variation, time out to see or do anything else, no ability to talk to others or make friends, is really depressing.
 
If anyone here voted “no”, then you should read this:

My grandfather (on my father’s side) is living proof that working hard can put you ahead. He grew up just about as poor as a person can be. They had nothing. He started working in a tavern. He got married and raised four children. He spent the majority of his life repairing appliances while his wife worked to clean apartments. Neither are high paying jobs. He worked his *** off his entire life (as did his wife). They were very careful with money, and still are. He didn’t have contacts, or friends in high places. He did it all on his own. He retired last year and he is now living comfortably in a small house that he owns in Illinois. They even have a summer home of sorts in Wisconsin.

Due to my grandfather’s efforts, my father started off slightly better than he did. My parent have a similar story to that of my grandparents, though. They fell into very large amounts of debt multiple times, but were able to work it all off. I am pleased to say that my father now owns a small business which is doing quite well. I am the eldest of four children and we are living quite comfortably (sattelite TV, '06 Suburban, 4.5 acres of land).

I have learned the value of hard work. Anyone that believes a person can’t get ahead by working hard is sadly mistaken. I pity what this will mean for that person’s future career (I wouldn’t want to hire someone with this attitude, would you?). These people are largely victims of the liberal “victimhood mentality”. They believe that they are working hard enough, yet they see no self-advancement. It is so much easier for them to think it’s someone else’s fault.

And yes, everyone in the above story is conservative. :cool:
 
I guess most people haven’t read that book by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray. And Charles Murray is a conservative.

And I am NOT against conservatism in general. I am more afraid of the Objectivists instead of modern conservatism. If Objectivism prevails, I hope the world will crash in the same way portrayed in Atlas Shrugged. At least Ayn Rand was smart enough to realize society needs energy (the motor created by Galt would power his utopia). Maybe the die off from peak oil or global warming wouldn’t be a bad thing after all for such an avaricious species.
 
ribozyme said:
I guess most people haven’t read that book by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray. And Charles Murray is a conservative.

And I am NOT against conservatism in general. I am more afraid of the Objectivists instead of modern conservatism. If Objectivism prevails, I hope the world will crash in the same way portrayed in Atlas Shrugged. At least Ayn Rand was smart enough to realize society needs energy (the motor created by Galt would power his utopia). Maybe the die off from peak oil or global warming wouldn’t be a bad thing after all for such an avaricious species.
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But remember, only those of us who have jobs will survive.😛
 
cynic said:
Or perhaps money, cars, and a nice house doesn’t motivate them.
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That doesn’t match the survey results. They rank pay as number 1. I spend a lot of time in the SF Bay Area, which is majority liberal. If you think they don’t care about nice (and very expensive in relation to other areas) houses and cars, you are dreaming.
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cynic:
Because… you’re against vacations? At the risk of sounding lazy, and I’m probably lazy compared to a lot of peple, the idea of doing one thing for just about all of your waking life, with no variation, time out to see or do anything else, no ability to talk to others or make friends, is really depressing.
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I didn’t say that. It is a matter of priorities and expectations. I’m sure vacation time is a factor for conservatives. It just isn’t ranked as high as the opportunity for advancement. It appears to me that, contrary to your earlier statement, money is much more important to the liberal, since they rank pay number one.
 
get ahead of what? I’m not racing anybody.

I believe neither the liberal or the conservative mindset is going to run out of selfish, greedy or lazy people anytime soon. Neither one has a monopoly on any of those traits.

All this tells me is that there are a great many folks who enjoy putting other people in boxes and then labeling them as somehow “worse” than they are. Then they can pat themselves on the back for being a member of the “superior” group.
 
Fitswimmer said:
get ahead of what? I’m not racing anybody.

I believe neither the liberal or the conservative mindset is going to run out of selfish, greedy or lazy people anytime soon. Neither one has a monopoly on any of those traits.

All this tells me is that there are a great many folks who enjoy putting other people in boxes and then labeling them as somehow “worse” than they are. Then they can pat themselves on the back for being a member of the “superior” group.
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Well-said!!! 👍
 
vern_humphrey said:
But remember, only those of us who have jobs will survive.😛
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Which means that hard work alone won’t save you. Your boss also has to want to pay you for the hard work. (Which means that he has to like you.)

The only way hard work alone can save someone is if they own their own farm, and raise all their own food, fix all their own machinery, and build their own house and other buildings.

Otherwise, the human equation enters in, and it becomes about how well liked you are, and how good of a salesman you are.
 
Fitswimmer said:
OT-Love your Sister Helen quote. I met her when I was in college and I’ve never forgotten the encounter.
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Sr. Helen came to my parish 3 wks. ago!!! She was terrific, as always…(I met her at Vassar College a few yrs. ago, too) She’s one of my heros!!! 😉 🙂
 
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