Working hard to get ahead [Makers and Takers]

[vern_humphrey]

Yeah, like that war we’re waging that’s costing:

$4,681 per household.​

$1,721 per person.​

$341.4 million per day.​

I’d much rather pay for Social Security, healthcare, education and a rebuilding of our infrastructure with all that $$$. Maybe we might actually create some jobs in our own country if we did some of that, what a novel idea!

“And besides that, I just hate conservatives.”

 

[rtconstant]

A lot of what is listed in the OP does go along with my personal experiences. Especially on issues with the family. While risking painting with a broad brush I’ve noticed that conservative parents do tend to be more involved in their children’s and parent’s lives.

I’m not saying that I don’t know liberals who do the same but percentage wise in my experience would go to the conservatives. I know this might invite some flames but in my experience (and statistics seem to back this up) liberals talk conservatives do.

I hate to even talk like that but I’ve worked with many charitable groups and if it were not for religious people particularly and conservatives generally I don’t know if many of these groups could have continued.

But again that’s just my experience.

 

[Fitswimmer]

“And besides that, I just hate conservatives.”

ummm, I do hope you’re kidding. I don’t hate anybody.

I do think that there are a great many people in this country who vote against their own best interests, but that’s just my opinion and we all know how much that’s worth.

 

[vern_humphrey]

ummm, I do hope you’re kidding. I don’t hate anybody.

Then why the flank attack:

Yeah, like that war we’re waging that’s costing:

$4,681 per household.​

$1,721 per person.​

$341.4 million per day.​

I do think that there are a great many people in this country who vote against their own best interests, but that’s just my opinion and we all know how much that’s worth.

They are far outweighed by people who vote for their own interests.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Then why the flank attack:

They are far outweighed by people who vote for their own interests.

It wasn’t intended as an attack, it was a statement of fact that the Iraq war is costing a heck of a lot of $$ that’s going to have to come from somewhere.

Why would people NOT vote for their own interests? They’re going to vote their values and for whichever candidate they feel comes closest to those values.

However, what I’ve seen that interests me is that poor and middle class people seem to have a tendency to vote as if they were rich. Maybe that’s because most of them believe that someday they’re going to be rich and they want to make sure their interests are protected.

 

[Sheeniac]

Why would people NOT vote for their own interests? They’re going to vote their values and for whichever candidate they feel comes closest to those values.

However, what I’ve seen that interests me is that poor and middle class people seem to have a tendency to vote as if they were rich. Maybe that’s because most of them believe that someday they’re going to be rich and they want to make sure their interests are protected.

My values and my “interests” may not always be inline. My values are driven by my small-government leanings, the Constitution and my Catholic views.

I would vote against a subsidy to the middle class even if I personally benefited from it. Why? Because in general I don’t think it’s the right thing to do. Some of us rise above our “class consciousness” and instead vote based on strongly held beliefs. I would never vote to “soak the rich” for those very reasons. My becoming rich or not has nothing to do with it.

The right thing to do doesn’t always line up with my “best interests”, whatever they may be.

 

[Amolibri]

It wasn’t intended as an attack, it was a statement of fact that the Iraq war is costing a heck of a lot of $$ that’s going to have to come from somewhere.

Why would people NOT vote for their own interests? They’re going to vote their values and for whichever candidate they feel comes closest to those values.

However, what I’ve seen that interests me is that poor and middle class people seem to have a tendency to vote as if they were rich. Maybe that’s because most of them believe that someday they’re going to be rich and they want to make sure their interests are protected.

Perhaps…but don’t forget “trickle down”…seems they swallowed that one, too!

 

[Fitswimmer]

Perhaps…but don’t forget “trickle down”…seems they swallowed that one, too!

Well, something’s been trickling down, but it hasn’t been money…

 

[Amolibri]

Well, something’s been trickling down, but it hasn’t been money…

 

[rlg94086]

What people are tiring of is having to work 2 and 3 jobs to have the same lifestyle they had 10 years ago.

jmcrae:

Actually, it’s materialism that has brought people to this point. The family of the fifties didn’t need two or more cars, didn’t need a TV set, gaming system, or Internet service, certainly didn’t need cable or satellite, and lived within walking distance of school, church, shopping, and work. They also made most of their own clothes rather than buying them, and grew their own vegetables in the summer time.

Hmm…here are two opposing views both given as responses to (evil conservative ) Vern. Which is it? Are things economically dismal, or are we more greedy than past generations?

IMO…jmcrae is closer to the mark here than Fitswimmer. More people own homes…homes are larger…and we have a lot more toys.

Now, who is more likely to have a single income earner and cut back on all of the goodies in favor of family time? A liberal or a conservative? In my experience, it is more likely a religious conservative. Most liberals I know are very in favor of the two-income family…in fact, they frown upon stay-at-home Moms.

This is, of course, a generalization, but the survey results do back up that impression. If you look at the biggest rat race areas where everyone is “keeping up with the Joneses” are they more conservative or liberal? San Francisco…New York…Boston…Chicago…

For the record, btw, I am not in complete agreement with Vern. I do believe in hard work to get ahead. I’m working my buns off to provide for my family and hopefully put enough away for retirement. However, I do think that we all need to consider what we *really *need and put our material desires in perspective. It isn’t necessary to live as a pauper, but we don’t need 1/2 the goodies society leads us to think are necessities.

 

[ribozyme]

Now, who is more likely to have a single income earner and cut back on all of the goodies in favor of family time? A liberal or a conservative? In my experience, it is more likely a religious conservative. Most liberals I know are very in favor of the two-income family…in fact, they frown upon stay-at-home Moms.

This is, of course, a generalization, but the survey results do back up that impression. If you look at the biggest rat race areas where everyone is “keeping up with the Joneses” are they more conservative or liberal? San Francisco…New York…Boston…Chicago…

I wonder if the same phenomenon of keeping up with the Joneses happens in -]heaven/-] Sweden or Denmark.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It wasn’t intended as an attack, it was a statement of fact that the Iraq war is costing a heck of a lot of $$ that’s going to have to come from somewhere.

Why would people NOT vote for their own interests? They’re going to vote their values and for whichever candidate they feel comes closest to those values.

Then how come the same crooks keep getting re-elected?

However, what I’ve seen that interests me is that poor and middle class people seem to have a tendency to vote as if they were rich. Maybe that’s because most of them believe that someday they’re going to be rich and they want to make sure their interests are protected.

That is actually quite wise – after all, each one of has a duty to protect all freedom, not just that we are using today.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Then how come the same crooks keep getting re-elected?

That is actually quite wise – after all, each one of has a duty to protect all freedom, not just that we are using today.

I went on a crusade a while back to vote against any incumbant, but sadly most of my state did not join me…

It all depends on how one defines freedom. If by freedom, we mean the ability to avoid paying taxes on the bulk of one’s income or wealth, I suppose that’s nice for the less than 10% of the country affected, but I haven’t noticed that freedom being shared with the folks that helped grant it.

 

[Amolibri]

Hmm…here are two opposing views both given as responses to (evil conservative ) Vern. Which is it? Are things economically dismal, or are we more greedy than past generations?

IMO…jmcrae is closer to the mark here than Fitswimmer. More people own homes…homes are larger…and we have a lot more toys.

Now, who is more likely to have a single income earner and cut back on all of the goodies in favor of family time? A liberal or a conservative? In my experience, it is more likely a religious conservative. Most liberals I know are very in favor of the two-income family…in fact, they frown upon stay-at-home Moms.
This is, of course, a generalization, but the survey results do back up that impression. If you look at the biggest rat race areas where everyone is “keeping up with the Joneses” are they more conservative or liberal? San Francisco…New York…Boston…Chicago…

For the record, btw, I am not in complete agreement with Vern. I do believe in hard work to get ahead. I’m working my buns off to provide for my family and hopefully put enough away for retirement. However, I do think that we all need to consider what we *really *need and put our material desires in perspective. It isn’t necessary to live as a pauper, but we don’t need 1/2 the goodies society leads us to think are necessities.

You’re darn tootin’ it is!: In my experience, that’s a meaningless statement. …
I don’t know where you live…but just check out the SUV’s in my parish parking lot. Generalizations on your experience are as accurate as mine…frankly. It has not much to do with lib/cons., IMO. That’s in our biased minds, I dare say.

 

[rlg94086]

You’re darn tootin’ it is!: In my experience, that’s a meaningless statement. …
I don’t know where you live…but just check out the SUV’s in my parish parking lot. Generalizations on your experience are as accurate as mine…frankly. It has not much to do with lib/cons., IMO. That’s in our biased minds, I dare say.

As I said, the survey results back up my observations, but you are correct that “generalizations on my experience are as accurate as yours.” No argument here.

However, please be careful how you take my comments. I did not say that most religious conservatives cut back on goodies in order to keep the wife at home. I said that those families who do cut back on goodies to keep the wife at home tend to be religious conservatives.

My experiences are limited to the places I have lived (SF Bay Area, NW Denver, Portland Metro) and visited for business (most of the Western US/Canada, Boston, Raleigh-Durham, Chicago, Toronto, Montreal… and UK, Holland, Japan and Shanghai).

Biases are not something that can be controlled and/or easily assessed. I was liberal, am now conservative and have friends, family, co-workers and aquaintances from multiple perspectives.

 

[Amolibri]

I said that those families who do cut back on goodies to keep the wife at home tend to be religious conservatives.

For what it’s worth…my experience in NY metro area is that there is no clear correlation. Many people who are into the simple living movement in upstate NY tend to be more socially conscious anti-war type people…that does not label them in my book. Those are your labels, and I don’t subscribe to them. “Religious” and “conservative” are not stuck together in my book.

 

[Fitswimmer]

For what it’s worth…my experience in NY metro area is that there is no clear correlation. Many people who are into the simple living movement in upstate NY tend to be more socially conscious anti-war type people…that does not label them in my book. Those are your labels, and I don’t subscribe to them. “Religious” and “conservative” are not stuck together in my book.

I live in the same area and I concur. My most liberal friends are into simple living and always have been, grow their own produce, compost, small houses, hybrid cars and all that. . It’s my more conservative friends that have the biggest trucks, houses and the most toys.

 

[Amolibri]

I live in the same area and I concur. My most liberal friends are into simple living and always have been, grow their own produce, compost, small houses, hybrid cars and all that. . It’s my more conservative friends that have the biggest trucks, houses and the most toys.

Thanks for posting that, Fit!!! I’m still uncomfortable with these labels…in particular because they have been ‘subjectified’ by the popular press…and carried on by discussions such as these (and many others on these fora.)
It’s unavoidable at times, I realize…but it serves to divide rather than give us common ground.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I went on a crusade a while back to vote against any incumbant, but sadly most of my state did not join me…

I believe it was Geoffry of Monmouth who described Richard the Lion Hearted at the seige of Acre. “With shot from the walls, they brake his engine. But he builded it up again, and by dint of repeated blows he smashed the Accursed Tower.”

It all depends on how one defines freedom. If by freedom, we mean the ability to avoid paying taxes on the bulk of one’s income or wealth, I suppose that’s nice for the less than 10% of the country affected, but I haven’t noticed that freedom being shared with the folks that helped grant it.

How about the freedom to keep the fruits of your own labor? How about the freedom to invest that 15.3% as you see fit? How about the freedom to enjoy your own savings in your old age?

 

[cynic]

They either pull up their socks, or go out of business and are replaced by more efficient companies.

you’re not understanding me here. Market share is relative, there has to be a loser. If everyone in every business worked harder, that will not mean everyone will get a pay rise.

In which case another, smarter company comes along and hires away all their efficient and productive workers.

But what if that’s standard practice across an industry. Those employees will have nowhere to go.

Where do you get that idea? There are plenty of craftsmen who are content to become the best craftsmen they can.

but *you’re *not content with them doing that…

However, such people usually wind up as foremen and managers as well.

You fail to understand we are a society. There is organization in human society. As individuals mature, they naturally become leaders and mentors.

That may be true, but it’s not reason enough to base a tax scheme on such assumptions. For many people, the particulars of their jobs is what motivates them. Why should a teacher be obliged to become principal if teaching is what they enjoy and do well? Why should a salesman feel obliged to become team leader if the interaction with customers is what they like doing, and what they’re good at?

Out of interest, how much do you think a 40 year old man of average intelligence should be earning?