Working Hours

[DL82]

One of the things that probably separates Europeans and Americans most, with Britain somewhere in the middle, is our working practices. Most countries in Europe have a 35hour maximum working week for most jobs. The norm in America is 40hours, and many Americans work 2 or more jobs, evenings as well as days, or weekends as well as weekdays. Holiday entitlements are also different, with Americans having 10 or 12 days, while British people get a minimum of 20, often more, and some countries in Europe having regular 25day entitlements, plus a two-week statutory public holiday, such as the Grand-Vacance in Paris.

I don’t know how Americans do it. How do you cope with so little free time? So great is the demand on your time, that the Church even has to commute holy days of obligation to Sundays, because so few people could make time for a mid-week mass.

And more to the point, why do you do it? I guess the pay-per-hour must be lower, or do people just choose to work more and earn more even though they could live comfortably on less?

It has been said that with today’s technology, we could all work 3 days a week and still enjoy a higher quality of life (measured in terms of material posessions at least) than our grandparents ever did.

Anyway, I just wanted to get people’s views on the ethical dimensions of work and working hours. Many of the posters on this thread advocate policies that promote the family, tax breaks for married couples, heterosexual-only marriage, home-schooling, outlawing abortion, etc. What about helping people to work less so they can spend more quality time with their families?

Here’s a story:
An American on holiday in Mexico walks into a little fish restaurant by the sea. He enjoys the fish, and decides to go back the next day, but finds the place closed. He sees the owner by the beach and asks if something is wrong because his place is closed.
“I only open Monday through Wednesday” the man says, “I make enough money from that to keep me going through the week, rest of the time I stay home, play with my kids, go swimming in the sea.”
“Well, I just got to say, your fish is great,” replies the American, “have you ever thought of opening up a chain? You could train a bunch of chefs to cook the way you do, open up a restaurant in every city, have people pay you for the franchise, it would be great, after a few years you could hire somebody else to take over the day to day running of the business for you, then you could take long holidays, take the weekend off, play with your kids, go swimming in the sea.”

 

[Trishie]

Maybe have a look at comparative mortgages and wages…a lot of couples don’t have much of a choice but to both work or work two jobs, simply to survive, simply to keep their houses and provide the basics for their children. I’ve been around Prayer Intentions long enough to see that. These people aren’t being materialistic, they’re trying to survive…

 

[Dale_M]

I don’t know how Americans do it. How do you cope with so little free time?

We hang out at online forums and complain about Europe and Europeans.

 

[Catholictrain]

Being an American and having worked with Europeans on various projects, I tell you that it is a true statement that nothing gets done in the month of August. That is because most of Europe is on vacation.

I think part of why Americans work so much more comes from that “Protestant Work Ethic” that so many people, even Catholics, have embraced. This ethic, that comes from the Puritans, says that idleness is the devils playground and therefore we must be working hard all the time. Along with that is the “Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence” mentality. People feel they have to work harder so they can have the nice grill, big yard, nicer car, better clothes ] (you fill in the blank), and then they have no time to enjoy the ‘greener grass’.

I have somewhat rejected this protestant work ethic, partly because I am Catholic, and partly because the Lord blessed me with parents who taught me not to worry if my neighbors had nicer things than I did. The important thing was the Love of God. So my wife and I decided when we were married that only one of us would work, that we would live on this one salary and not spend beyond our means, and we would spend out free time with our children and each other as much as possible.

So after 27 years with the same company, we don’t have a lot of extra money, but we have enough to live and I am very happy spending time with my family.

 

[puzzleannie]

The norm in America is 40hours, and many Americans work 2 or more jobs, evenings as well as

I wish

we got a 40 hour work week the same way Europeans got their, through union activity and pressure, but our unions became more concerned with keeping jobs at all and didn’t push for more time off.

 

[mapleoak]

One of the things that probably separates Europeans and Americans most, with Britain somewhere in the middle, is our working practices. Most countries in Europe have a 35hour maximum working week for most jobs. The norm in America is 40hours, and many Americans work 2 or more jobs, evenings as well as days, or weekends as well as weekdays. Holiday entitlements are also different, with Americans having 10 or 12 days, while British people get a minimum of 20, often more, and some countries in Europe having regular 25day entitlements, plus a two-week statutory public holiday, such as the Grand-Vacance in Paris.

I don’t know how Americans do it. How do you cope with so little free time? So great is the demand on your time, that the Church even has to commute holy days of obligation to Sundays, because so few people could make time for a mid-week mass.

And more to the point, why do you do it? I guess the pay-per-hour must be lower, or do people just choose to work more and earn more even though they could live comfortably on less?

It has been said that with today’s technology, we could all work 3 days a week and still enjoy a higher quality of life (measured in terms of material posessions at least) than our grandparents ever did.

Anyway, I just wanted to get people’s views on the ethical dimensions of work and working hours. Many of the posters on this thread advocate policies that promote the family, tax breaks for married couples, heterosexual-only marriage, home-schooling, outlawing abortion, etc. What about helping people to work less so they can spend more quality time with their families?

Here’s a story:
An American on holiday in Mexico walks into a little fish restaurant by the sea. He enjoys the fish, and decides to go back the next day, but finds the place closed. He sees the owner by the beach and asks if something is wrong because his place is closed.
“I only open Monday through Wednesday” the man says, “I make enough money from that to keep me going through the week, rest of the time I stay home, play with my kids, go swimming in the sea.”
“Well, I just got to say, your fish is great,” replies the American, “have you ever thought of opening up a chain? You could train a bunch of chefs to cook the way you do, open up a restaurant in every city, have people pay you for the franchise, it would be great, after a few years you could hire somebody else to take over the day to day running of the business for you, then you could take long holidays, take the weekend off, play with your kids, go swimming in the sea.”

As a farmer, I work 7 days a week, 365 days a year, and am on-call 24 hours per day. Why? Because I enjoy it.

 

[Contarini]

“Well, I just got to say, your fish is great,” replies the American, “have you ever thought of opening up a chain? You could train a bunch of chefs to cook the way you do, open up a restaurant in every city, have people pay you for the franchise, it would be great, after a few years you could hire somebody else to take over the day to day running of the business for you, then you could take long holidays, take the weekend off, play with your kids, go swimming in the sea.”

A true story:

My mother and I were in Bucharest, trying to find a flight to Ukraine (I think–it was a while ago–to somewhere in the former U.S.S.R. anyway). We were going back and forth between the offices of different airlines. We left one office knowing that it was closing at 2 PM, but that we had time to go check prices with a different airline, make our decision, and get back by that time. When we did get back, a bit before 2, lo and behold the woman who worked there was closing the office and was quite grumpy about reopening it (though she did so eventually). We protested that it wasn’t 2 yet and the sign said that she was supposed to be there till 2. Her response: “Sunt si eu om.” (I’m human too!)

To her, being “human” or being treated humanely or whatever she meant by the phrase (it could be paraphrased in different ways, I think), involved not being too strict about hours. I can’t imagine an American saying something like this!

Edwin

 

[Oscarthecat]

One of the things that probably separates Europeans and Americans most, with Britain somewhere in the middle, is our working practices. Most countries in Europe have a 35hour maximum working week for most jobs. The norm in America is 40hours, and many Americans work 2 or more jobs, evenings as well as days, or weekends as well as weekdays. Holiday entitlements are also different, with Americans having 10 or 12 days, while British people get a minimum of 20, often more, and some countries in Europe having regular 25day entitlements, plus a two-week statutory public holiday, such as the Grand-Vacance in Paris.

I don’t think that your data is entirely accurate.

First, not all europeans enjoy the leisurely work ethic you claim.

Data from the EU Labour Force Survey for Q4 2007 appears at first glance to confirm this general pattern, but closer investigation suggests that the reality may be quite different for many employees.

For each country, the published figures for the average weekly working hours of men and women do not exclude part-time workers from the sample. If adjustments are made to represent the hours of full-time workers alone, these figures increase by an average of 4.4 hours to give an average of 42.1 hours across the EU. This is still likely to be a low estimate, however, as it includes the time of those who may have been absent for most of the reference week and does not reflect undeclared time worked on second jobs.

Second, the increased holiday, vacation, and sick time policies might actually increase work related stress.

“By increasing the scope for people to be absent from work, policy makers have placed greater demands upon those who must cover for them. This has also increased overall levels of stress in the workplace and left employers in a difficult practical position.”

Third, not all europeans are comfortable being forced to limit their hours to an arbitrary government standard-some would prefer to work more to earn more…

There is a clear tendency for employees to seek additional working time in order to enhance their modest monthly wages and salaries.

Fourth, this level of interference in private businesses makes it difficult for business owners and managers to operate efficiently and cost effectively.

All companies in the new EU states are having to face up to increasing organisational demands as they seek to adapt to the requirements of the EU’s vast internal market. The former state enterprises also suffer from poor levels of capital investment and high levels of bureaucracy, both of which place extra demands upon individual employees.

Finally, there is certainly not a consensus among individuals or EU members that the limited work week is the preferred model…

The split in social philosophies at the heart of Europe between libertarian ‘American-style’ values pursued by the UK, Ireland and many new EU states and the more welfare-orientated ‘social model’ maintained by many continental western European states such as France, Sweden and the Netherlands has recently come to a head over the issue of the UK’s continued opt-out from the maximum working week.

source: fedee.com/workinghours.shtml

 

[cynic]

I live in New Zealand and when you take out part timers from the equation, the average work week is around 45 hours.

In the U.S I think it’s the attitude of employers. Maximise hours, and unofficial unpaid time, and create a ‘culture’ where if you take any leave whatsoever then say goodbye to the chance of promotion. Especially true for salary jobs. It’s a similiar story here.

 

[strngrnrth]

Hypothetical American family history:
Gen 1 – works 19 1/2 hours/day, every single day, sleeps on straw pallet on floor of rat-infested cellar, no water, no lamps, if you want light you burn a tallow candle which is hot and sputters and could burn the place down. Walls are cobbled out of bits of scrap board and even strips of mated fabric and corroded metal, barely balanced in place, to add extra rooms to backs of buildings. Room shared with whole family and three other families you don’t know. You eat thin soup, watery mush and bread crust so hard you have to soak it. If you try to wash a dish neighbors will shove you away from neighborhood pump because they feel they have more urgent uses for water.
Gen 2 – Same accommodations except that you have a pallet for just your family, a lamp with a broken funnel, a pump at your end of the alley as well, twice the mush, and you work just 15 hours/day, 6 days/week with Christmas off and the kids can go to school after work.
Gen 3 – Same but 13 1/2 hour day, kids don’t have to work until they’re 10, they can work half-days until they’re 15, and your family has an entire tenement flat of its own.
Gen 4 – Same but 9 1/2 hours, 5 days, kids don’t have to work until they’re 14, then they work half-days until they’re 17, family has small house with own pump in yard, one bed on frame, Christmas presents every year, enough coal to wash dishes and clothes hot most of the time.
Gen 5 – 8 hour day, 5 day week, kids work part-time at 16, full-time at 18, toys, bedrooms, lawn, meatloaf and butter, cake, camping every year, swimsuits for trips to river, good life.
Gen 6 – feel ridiculous complaining about 8 hour day after microwaving brownie and steak-and-egg breakfast and packing fettucine alfredo lunch and vitamin drink, putting on pantsuit fresh from gentle cycle and checking messages on cell phone. I don’t know how others conceive of it but some of us think of ourselves as the lucky beneficiaries of a long hard climb to where we are. It’s worth a little work, whch is all 40 hours really is after all.

 

[zjl56]

While many Europeans do average less work hours then us Americans, they are rather on par with us in terms of pure productivity. This, of course, is a mere generalization, and many countries are actually struggling to boost their economies in these troubled times. France, the country that has been the standard for the rest of European labor, has actually removed large portions of the 35 hour work week due to their lacking on the global economy.

 

[DaveBj]

What is getting lost in the comparison of U.S. work hours with European is that not only do we work more hours than the Euros, our per-capita production is higher than that of any European country.

DaveBj

 

[Ghoti]

I live in New Zealand and when you take out part timers from the equation, the average work week is around 45 hours.

In the U.S I think it’s the attitude of employers. Maximise hours, and unofficial unpaid time, and create a ‘culture’ where if you take any leave whatsoever then say goodbye to the chance of promotion. Especially true for salary jobs. It’s a similiar story here.

Definitely; Canada seems to follow the trend of our biggest trading partner. My Donna was told in a job interview, don’t bother taking any vacation, no one here does, it’s frowned upon; take vacation pay instead. Last job she had (a salaried position) she was told that 40 per week was her minimum. She worked (normally) Mon-Fri, 8:30-5:00, usually with no lunch break (although her supervisor got them, plus smoke breaks); because she was the only person in her position, she could almost go a whole day without a bathroom break: she could only leave her station if someone would relieve her, for example a maintenance man on rounds or such.

 

[cynic]

Hypothetical American family history:
Gen 1 – works 19 1/2 hours/day, every single day, sleeps on straw pallet on floor of rat-infested cellar, no water, no lamps, if you want light you burn a tallow candle which is hot and sputters and could burn the place down. Walls are cobbled out of bits of scrap board and even strips of mated fabric and corroded metal, barely balanced in place, to add extra rooms to backs of buildings. Room shared with whole family and three other families you don’t know. You eat thin soup, watery mush and bread crust so hard you have to soak it. If you try to wash a dish neighbors will shove you away from neighborhood pump because they feel they have more urgent uses for water.
.

I’m pretty sure management in my workplace would love it if they could force us to work 19 1/2 hour days, 7 days a week .

Employees never needed to work that, the reason we don’t now is because of the labour movement that has altered expectations of what fair conditions are.

 

[thomfra]

I don’t think that your data is entirely accurate.

First, not all europeans enjoy the leisurely work ethic you claim.

Second, the increased holiday, vacation, and sick time policies might actually increase work related stress.

Third, not all europeans are comfortable being forced to limit their hours to an arbitrary government standard-some would prefer to work more to earn more…

Fourth, this level of interference in private businesses makes it difficult for business owners and managers to operate efficiently and cost effectively.

Finally, there is certainly not a consensus among individuals or EU members that the limited work week is the preferred model…

source: fedee.com/workinghours.shtml

Well I’d take shorter working hours over money any day of the week. You only get one life.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Well I’d take shorter working hours over money any day of the week. You only get one life.

That may work great for you. But other people around the world actually value work, and regard it as more than just a way to make money. Some people work because they feel an obligation to contribute to society. Others work because they enjoy it. Some people might want to work as much as possible now so they can retire early, others might want to work more to help their kids pay for college, and still others might not be able to feed their kids or keep the lights on if they worked less.

Regardless of a person’s reasons for working, the government has no right to tell them they have to stop at some arbitrary hourly limit.

And another thing…

Its really nice to think about working fewer hours when your an hourly employee selling shirts, or moving couches, or pushing paperwork around in a government office.

But what about people in more critical positions?

What would happen if all the ER doctors reduced their hours from the current 50-60+ hours per week down to about 30 hours per week so they could stay home and play scrabble with their kids?

Or what if elementary school teachers decided to stop working more than 35 hours per week?

What about priests? My cousin is a diocesan priest- he’s lucky if he has an hour or two to himself each day, and never really gets a day off. How should he cut his hours down to 35 hours per week? Should he start rationing funeral services or Last Rites? Maybe he should stop hearing confessions, or teaching catechism classes?

 

[rlg94086]

One of the things that probably separates Europeans and Americans most, with Britain somewhere in the middle, is our working practices. Most countries in Europe have a 35hour maximum working week for most jobs. The norm in America is 40hours, and many Americans work 2 or more jobs, evenings as well as days, or weekends as well as weekdays. Holiday entitlements are also different, with Americans having 10 or 12 days, while British people get a minimum of 20, often more, and some countries in Europe having regular 25day entitlements, plus a two-week statutory public holiday, such as the Grand-Vacance in Paris.

I don’t know how Americans do it. How do you cope with so little free time? So great is the demand on your time, that the Church even has to commute holy days of obligation to Sundays, because so few people could make time for a mid-week mass.

And more to the point, why do you do it? I guess the pay-per-hour must be lower, or do people just choose to work more and earn more even though they could live comfortably on less?

It has been said that with today’s technology, we could all work 3 days a week and still enjoy a higher quality of life (measured in terms of material posessions at least) than our grandparents ever did.

Anyway, I just wanted to get people’s views on the ethical dimensions of work and working hours. Many of the posters on this thread advocate policies that promote the family, tax breaks for married couples, heterosexual-only marriage, home-schooling, outlawing abortion, etc. What about helping people to work less so they can spend more quality time with their families?

We do often talk about consumerism on this forum, and that is the real problem. I worked for 6 months (was supposed to do so longer, but the company was purchased) in the UK (Oxfordshire), and they paid me the same as I was making in the US. What I found was that the work hours were not that dissimilar. My pay was higher than my peers. Rent/mortgage was higher and houses smaller. So, it isn’t the pay.

Our houses are bigger and nicer than they were in my parent’s generation. Both spouses work to support the “improved” lifestyle.

In my visits to Holland with my last employer, I found their work days to be shorter with a couple of exceptions. But again, pay is less, houses are smaller, etc. My coworkers seemed just as stressed though and many spouses also worked. My peers (field sales) had about the same travel schedule as I do but more vacation time, as you mentioned. The irritating thing about that when you are in a global market, is explaining that there is a skeleton crew in August, so your lead-times are out an additional 2-4 weeks. That and a strong Euro make it very difficult to compete with Asia.

The only thing I would like to see here in the US is for people to be less concerned about the size of their house and more concerned about keeping mom at home and spending time with their children. In my case, I can’t afford to switch jobs right now, and my current one requires weekly travel (typically gone Tuesday to Thursday or Friday). It stinks, but we wouldn’t be able to pay bills otherwise. If things go well though…as I expect…, I will be able to cut back dramatically in a couple of years.

 

[Biggie]

Some people talk about free time as if it were a sacrament, a sacred duty, and about work as if it were the equivalent of greed, a vice. They’re not living in the world I inhabit. If I’m an hourly employee, I’m working as many hours as I can and taking all the overtime I can get. If I’m salaried, I’m putting in as many hours as I can stand to shore up my position with the company and to advance. If you’re not, you’re the guy I’m passing.

Merely having a job is a blessing not granted to everyone and not giving the job the best I have is ingratitude. When I work, I try to give my work to God, and to work with a quality that would please him. Also the job is not guaranteed and if I don’t earn it while I can, I may not have another chance.I owe it to my family to do my best for them, and working hard is putting my family first.
I have found that people who set non negotiable boundaries with their work time frequently place undo burdens on their co-workers to pick up the slack.

Finally, leisure time is a function of prosperity. Those who know privation are doing whatever they can and as much as they can to keep going. For a slacker to call the hard worker materialistic is simply projection.

 

[tqualey]

Dear cynic,

This is an interesting point of view - and it is not yours alone. Mine is a bit different - and probably will be the miniority position…

I’m pretty sure management in my workplace would love it if they could force us to work 19 1/2 hour days, 7 days a week .

First a little history, my wife and I had an opportunity to buy into a business - and took the challenge of running it. Oh, for those visions of a lemonaide stand on the corner… but, this was the real world and even operational lemonaide stands are more fiction then anything else! We started off with several thousands of dollars in debt - my widowed Mother-in-Law mortgaged her house so we could finance our dream! (What a saint! ) That money did not last long … less then two weeks later we had a payroll to meet - and most of the money was gone in a heart beat!

And, this brings me to my first shared idea: don’t look at the Exon’s and GM’s and GE’s and Coke-a-Cola’s to get your idea of business. Look at your 'Maw ‘n Paw’ type stores. Everything is handled through debt to get started, and if anything goes south - well, the one who signed that note is the one who must answer for it.

Making ends meet was not easy - but, that is not the point, What was the point was having some folks who thought it was easy and there were all of these ‘profits’ to be made. We made a profit (because if we didn’t we would have shut down!) every year. Some years were better then others - but we always did our best to look after the employees. And this brings me to my second point.

Having a ‘generous government’ look after an employee is really quite a contradiction. Let’s say (as this current economic down-turn continues and unemployment rises) the Feds desicde to extend the numbrer of covered weeks of unemployment. Hey, that sounds great - but, Uncle has NOTcome up with one penny of this cost! It is simply passed on to the employer! Think of it as sitll another tax. Take the latest increase in Federal Minimum Wage. Hey, that sounds great - more people will be amoving towards t the Living Wage concept. But, who pays for this - and how does it really impact on those who are at entry level?

Ultimately, either the employer finds ways to shift costs or develop automation so as to reduce the number of people hired. Whatever isn’t covered is passed on to the customer. Fedeeral Min Wage could be increased by $20/hour - and within a year absolutely nothing would change, except the Feds would have gotten in more taxes. The cost of a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk and a dozen eggs would have gone up to meet this new higher wage. Now what? Well, let me tell you - some on in Congress would get up to propose another hike in Minimum Wage because obviously we are not doing enough!

Forgive the rant. Employers provide work - but, unless they can cover their costs and make a profit (which is usually used for incrases in things like taxes, insurance, cost of raw materials, etc.) they and their company will wind up on the trash heap as still another failed business. This economy only works because someone is willing to risk their money to make something happen - and hire people to bring it all about. Seriously, be nice to your employer - they are taking a big risk - with no guarantees of success in this country!

Best wishes

 

[thomfra]

That may work great for you. But other people around the world actually value work, and regard it as more than just a way to make money. Some people work because they feel an obligation to contribute to society. Others work because they enjoy it. Some people might want to work as much as possible now so they can retire early, others might want to work more to help their kids pay for college, and still others might not be able to feed their kids or keep the lights on if they worked less.

Regardless of a person’s reasons for working, the government has no right to tell them they have to stop at some arbitrary hourly limit.

And another thing…

Its really nice to think about working fewer hours when your an hourly employee selling shirts, or moving couches, or pushing paperwork around in a government office.

But what about people in more critical positions?

What would happen if all the ER doctors reduced their hours from the current 50-60+ hours per week down to about 30 hours per week so they could stay home and play scrabble with their kids?

Or what if elementary school teachers decided to stop working more than 35 hours per week?

What about priests? My cousin is a diocesan priest- he’s lucky if he has an hour or two to himself each day, and never really gets a day off. How should he cut his hours down to 35 hours per week? Should he start rationing funeral services or Last Rites? Maybe he should stop hearing confessions, or teaching catechism classes?

In most countries, resource management (with some exceptions) dictates, that you have enough people on the job so that there is a work life balance. In Norway its a 37.5 hour working week, 40 in Australia-. Overtime paid if required. It’s not effecient or productive to work 60 hour weeks (you can find plenty of evidence on that, just google it). I would rather my doctor is well rested when he slices me open.

Anyone who would rather work 10 hour days 7 days a week rather than spend time with there kids probably shouldn’t have had them in the first place.