Works and Salvation...

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thecoach said:
wow…struggling AND dense
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a simple yea or nay would suffice there Coach.

The non-dense questions was and still is…

what do YOU say

If I …

Admit that I am a sinner…

Repent sincerely, perhaps with the sinner’s prayer…

and accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior…

will I be saved?
 
MrS said:
a simple yea or nay would suffice there Coach.

The non-dense questions was and still is…

what do YOU say
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Geez, I posted my position, based on Scripture, you refuse to read and understand…you think that somehow you will cleverly get me in some box…sorry, I left the box a while ago when I left the church.
 
TriuneUnity said:
I will quote a famed Lutheran expositor to answer this question. He just answers it better than I :
snip…
"
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Trinue:Unity:
I thought since this was a Protestant thread, we would keep to the tradition of Sola Scriptura.
Thanks!
 
TriuneUnity said:
Not sure what you mean here? :confused:
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I mean using he Bible alone as our basis for discussion rather than quoting from outside references such as that which you used, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, early Church fathers, etc. I do this because many protestants view the Bible as the sole rule of faith (Sola Scriptura) and they usually do not wish to hear from other sources. Personally, I thought your post was very good, but I hope you see my point. 🙂
Thanks!!!
 
tmac1956 said:
I mean using he Bible alone as our basis for discussion rather than quoting from outside references such as that which you used, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, early Church fathers, etc. I do this because many protestants view the Bible as the sole rule of faith (Sola Scriptura) and they usually do not wish to hear from other sources. Personally, I thought your post was very good, but I hope you see my point. 🙂
Thanks!!!
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Lutherans don’t view sola scriptura in such a narrow way. As such, we use the creeds, our confessions, etc.
Jon
 
tmac1956 said:
I mean using he Bible alone as our basis for discussion rather than quoting from outside references such as that which you used, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, early Church fathers, etc. I do this because many protestants view the Bible as the sole rule of faith (Sola Scriptura) and they usually do not wish to hear from other sources. Personally, I thought your post was very good, but I hope you see my point. 🙂
Thanks!!!
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What you’re referring to here is not how I, nor how my church body uses the Scriptures.
 
I thought the deathbed discussion was a good one. I don’t think Jesus will judge us on works, although it is good to help others, but whether we have faith in Him. Consider this passage of the workers in the vineyard:From Matthew 20:1–15:

1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to them he said, You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.' So they went. 5 Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, You go into the vineyard too.’ 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.' 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder, 12 saying, These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he replied to one of them, `Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’”

I think All are welcome in the Kingdom who believe in Jesus Christ.
 
TriuneUnity said:
What you’re referring to here is not how I, nor how my church body uses the Scriptures.
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Point taken. It’s just a knee jerk reaction for me as here in the deep South/Bible belt with a majority of evangelical/fundamentalists, quoting outside sources is virtually futile.
 
tmac1956 said:
Point taken. It’s just a knee jerk reaction for me as here in the deep South/Bible belt with a majority of evangelical/fundamentalists, quoting outside sources is virtually futile.
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And my little quip was a kneejerk reaction to the fact that some Catholics here think **all **protestants subscribe to the solo scriptura view that you described.
Hope I didn’t offend.
Jon
 
tmac1956 said:
Point taken. It’s just a knee jerk reaction for me as here in the deep South/Bible belt with a majority of evangelical/fundamentalists, quoting outside sources is virtually futile.
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That’s understandable. It is an incorrect and false use of the way that Reformation Protestants interpret the Scriptures. I.e., it is not sola scriptura.

However, I hope the interpretation of James I posted was an adequate explanation. If not, let me know.
 
Hey coach… please follow this…

MrS asked:
If I …
Admit that I am a sinner…
Repent sincerely, perhaps with the sinner’s prayer…
and accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior…

will I be saved?

the coach ignores the actual question and instead quotes from our Catholic Book, the Bible:
Read Paul

** 8.*
** But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:*

** 9.*
** That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.*

Mr S asks again:
Am I to take that as a Yes??

and coach ignores again and defers to the Scripture, implying that there is only one clear answer (but still not offering what HE thinks)
Weeellll…what does the Scripture say???

Mr S replies:
nothing… it is simply a book… no voicebox

*what do **you ***say?
that is the question

and the coach responds:
wow…struggling AND dense

to which Mr S again asks:
simple yea or nay would suffice there Coach.

The non-dense questions was and still is…

what do YOU say

If I …
Admit that I am a sinner…
Repent sincerely, perhaps with the sinner’s prayer…
and accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior…

will I be saved?

and the coach defers to the verse. which I now must assume is a yes answer from the coach:
Geez, I posted my position, based on Scripture, you refuse to read and understand…you think that somehow you will cleverly get me in some box…sorry, I left the box a while ago when I left the church.

I don’t have to try and be clever with you. As for some box, you are not John Calvin, the one who most strongly “boxed” himself in on his versions of doctrine.

So now we who watch this thread and others like it… are left to assume all kinds of things as to where you may have “earned” or been given the title “Rev”.

Surly you have been taught better answers than

…“struggling and dense”

.
 
Lil_Cat said:
Coming from a “Protestant” perspective, we don’t believe works are neccessary for salvation. Before people jump on me, let me explain.

A man is on his deathbed. He has a deathbed conversion. He dies just after that (a la Constantine). Where are his good works? I suppose you could count the good works he did before his conversion, but those works, without the conversion, are not going to save him. I am talking about TRUE repentance here, not just words. From my limited understanding of Catholicism, both “Protestants” and Catholics believe in deathbed conversions. Furthermore, how would a someone with a deathbed conversion participate in the sacraments? Anyway, maybe I should just start another thread…🤷

Please correct me if I am wrong.
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What was the man on his deathbed - or the thief on the cross - able to do? There is no mercy or justice to expect either of them to do some good work when they were not able.

But the key is that last statement: they were not able. In fact, they did all they could do. In reality, they did their good work: they repented, acknowledged, and accepted.

We, however, are able to do good works - and as Scripture declares, we are called to do so. I have yet to find in Scripture any reference to being saved by faith alone.
 
Paul also says

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. (Rom 2:5-8)
 
Lil_Cat said:
Please correct me if I am wrong.
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you are not wrong, just half right…

People who, on their Deathbed, convert… will be saved… but they may have to (not always) do their “works” in Purgatory… Being purified is a work… (and from what i have heard, a painful one… meaning that Purgatory is painful according to the saints… ) If a person is baptized after his deathbed conversion, he goes directly to Heaven… I believe the Church teaches this…

God knows…
 
ryanoneil said:
Paul also says

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. (Rom 2:5-8)
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i just added another Scripture passage to my List of Scriptures that Address Purgatory… because it seems to me that if a person disobeys the truth… (etc)… all his life, then converts on his deathbed… Well… it seems to me that he would have to go through a lot of purgatorial fire to… un-do all that “un-truth” on his soul… (for lack of better words… 😃 )
 
Being judged according to our works is not contrary to faith alone. Works are the result and evidence of faith. In a court you are judged guilty or innocent according to the evidence. The evidence does make you guilty or innocent but it is what allows the judge to decide. In a human court the judge could be right or wrong depending on his interpretation of the available evidence.

God already knows whether we believe or not. He doesn’t need the evidence. However God will not only be just, he will be seen to be just. Works will be the evidence that proves to the world that God’s judgement is just.
 
distracted said:
i just added another Scripture passage to my List of Scriptures that Address Purgatory… because it seems to me that if a person disobeys the truth… (etc)… all his life, then converts on his deathbed… Well… it seems to me that he would have to go through a lot of purgatorial fire to… un-do all that “un-truth” on his soul… (for lack of better words… 😃 )
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If someone receives a deathbed baptism, doesn’t Catholic doctrine say that all his previous sins are forgiven with no punishment? Temporal punishment only accrues to sins committed after baptism.
 
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