Works are essential for salvation

[gabjus]

Here are some stuff that I read about which I found useful about salvation by faith/works.
It was written by Alister McGrath, titled “What Shall We Make of Ecumenism?”

There was much misunderstanding going on during the Reformation, and I sometimes wonder how things would have been different if such misunderstandings were cleared up 1st.

The below is a list of common beliefs by both Luther and the Roman Catholic Church during the 16th century, some of which they failed to see at that time (according to McGrath, feel free to correct this pls).

1.  We cannot take the initiative in beginning the Christian life – it is God who moves first. Original sin prevents our finding our way back to God unaided by grace. Popular Catholic religion in the later Middle Ages was obsessed with the doctrine of justification by works, however, pointing to a radical divergence between what theologians taught and what the common people believed. Although some evangelicals continue to insist that the Roman Catholic Church officially teaches justification by works, that is not the case.

2.  **The foundation of the Christian life is the work of Christ and not anything we ourselves can do.** Once more, popular Catholic piety tended to lay considerable emphasis upon merit and showed an obsessive interest in the various ways in which this merit could be gained and stored, rather like funds in a bank account.

3. ** Although the Christian life is not begun on the basis of good works, good works are the natural result of an expression of genuine Christian faith.**

4.  The Christian life takes place at the communal, not just the individual level. By beginning the Christian life, the believer finds himself within a community of faith.

A fairly recent (I cant remember the date since I returned the book containing this writing) U.S Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue group report: Justification by Faith, verified the above as misunderstandings. This is what they agreed on

1.  Christians have no hope of final salvation and basis for justification before God other than through God’s free gift of grace in Christ, offered to them through the Holy Spirit. **Our entire hope of justification and salvation rests on the promises of God and the saving work of Jesus Christ**, expressed in the gospel.

2.  As a result of original sin, all human beings – whoever they are and whenever and wherever they live – stand in need of justification.

3.  Justification is a complete free act of God’s grace, and **nothing we can do can be said to be the basis or ground of our own justification. Even faith itself must be recognized as a divine gift and work within us.** We can not turn to God unless God turns us first. The priority of God’s redeeming will and action over our own actions in bringing about our salvation is expressed (and its mystery safeguarded) by the doctrine of predestination.

4.  In justification we are declared righteous before God, and the process of making us righteous in His sight through the renewing action of the Holy Spirit is begun. In that justification, we receive by faith the effects of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as we respond personally to the gospel (the power of God for salvation), as we encounter the gospel through Scripture (the proclamation of the Word of God) and the sacraments, and as it initially awakens and subsequently strengthens faith in us.

5.  **Whoever is justified is subsequently renewed by the Holy Spirit and motivated and enabled to perform good works. That is not to say that individuals may rely on these works for their salvation, because eternal life remains a gift offered to us through the grace and mercy of God.**

I think many disagreements have arose simply because Protestants/Catholics have not taken time and effort to understand each other’s point of view rather than spending time and effort trying to knock each other’s argument’s down.

I’m not saying that there are no difference, however, I don’t think we should let our differences blind us from seeing significant doctrine that are actually similar (and sometimes merely just differently worded, with different definitions of the word).

 

[Reuben_J]

St. Paul however shows us very clearly in many of his preachings that it is by grace through faith in Christ that we are saved and not by what we do.

Agreed. But do we have to do something or nothing at all just because we are saved through grace?

It’s not penance, not Mary, not trying to be perfect and surely not putting other gods before God himself that saves us. If we could work our way, Jesus’ sacrifice would have been unnecessary. C.S. Lewis once said that in the end, it’s only going to matter who we are with, not what we did.

Not penance? Disagreed. Paul said we have to run until the finish. Sinning without repentance and penance will not finish that race.

Not Mary? Agreed. Mary is just an intercessor not a Savior.

Not trying to be perfect? Disagreed. Jesus wouldn’t ask us to if it is not necessary. We are not perfect but we should work our way trying to by the grace of God.

Putting other gods before God himself that saves us? Are you kidding? That’s against the first commandment and it goes without saying.

Jesus’ sacrifice is a grace that saves us but we have to do our part. Believing is nothing if we don’t live a Christian life but like a pagan. Jesus would not say what he said in Mathew 25 like feeding, giving drink, sheltering, clothing, caring and visiting if those were not his conditions. He was quite clear and failing to do that we are merely the proverbial goats.

God bless.

 

[Koineman]

Not penance? Disagreed. Paul said we have to run until the finish. Sinning without repentance and penance will not finish that race.

Absolutely. It’s helpful to remember what James wrote:

“Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.” (James 4:8-10)

 

[Prosmith]

Agreed. But do we have to do something or nothing at all just because we are saved through grace?

You missed the point. Works by the grace of God help us to further know who Christ is. The works don’t save us, Christ does.

Not penance? Disagreed. Paul said we have to run until the finish. Sinning without repentance and penance will not finish that race.

 

[Chuck_Finley]

I’ve always been surprised at the remarks some protestants make when they say that all we need is faith to get into heaven and that works don’t matter. I always wondered if they skip over verses likes these :

“Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have
works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that
faith was working together with his works, and by works
faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was
fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was
accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was
called the friend of God. You see then that a man is
justified by works, and not by faith only.”
James 2:17-24

What are Protestant remarks to the above verses?

My response would be three-fold:

The first is that we know that James cannot mean that Abraham was righteous because of his own good works because he already stressed that salvation is a gracious gift in the previous chapter (James 1:17-18).

Second, in the middle of the very passage you took James 2:24 from, James quotes Genesis 15:6, which says in no uncertain terms that God accounted Abraham righteous not because of his works, but on the basis of his faith because he believed.

The third nail in the coffin of your claim is that the “work” that James said justified Abraham was the offering of Isaac, an event which occurred many years after Abraham exercised his faith and was declared righteous by God (see Gen 12:1-7, 15:6). Abraham’s offering of Isaac only demonstrated the genuineness of his faith and the reality of his justification before God. James is emphasizing the vindication of a person’s claim of salvation. James’ teaching perfectly compliments Paul’s writings, which state that salvation is determined by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9) and is demonstrated by faithfulness to obey God’s will (Eph 2:10).

Now, this is the part where you say “Well, that’s just your interpretation”.

 

[Reuben_J]

You missed the point. Works by the grace of God help us to further know who Christ is. The works don’t save us, Christ does.

Chicken and egg question, isn’t it? How could Christ save us if we don’t work to show for our faith? No, I am not trying to dispute you but I feel all these are just semantic. If we have faith and yet do nothing, then we are like the proverbial goats in Mathew 25, which you did not address in your reply.

Penance is not spoken of in Scripture.

Really?

**penance **

1. voluntary self-punishment to atone for a sin, crime, etc.
2. a feeling of regret for one’s wrongdoings
3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity
   a. a punishment usually consisting of prayer, fasting, etc., undertaken voluntarily as an expression of penitence for sin
   b. a punishment of this kind imposed by church authority as a condition of absolution

I shall give you a more impartial example of penance in the Scripture. It is in Jonah 3 where the Ninevites and their King repented by fasting and covering with sackcloth. The act of fasting and humbling themselves by using sackcloth is penance.

*Jonah 1:1 … “Go to the great city of Nineveh(C) and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

Jonah 3 :3 Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh.

Jonah 3:5-9 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:

“By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”​

*

Again, because that’s how we know more about Jesus.

You were saying it is not about trying to be perfect. I showed you Jesus did ask us to be perfect. Then you say because that’s how we know Jesus. How could we be saved then if we do not know Jesus? So even with your rationale, we still have to try to be perfect in order that we know Jesus. It is through Jesus only that we are saved because he is the way, the truth and the life.

God bless you.

 

[Reuben_J]

Absolutely. It’s helpful to remember what James wrote:

“Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.” (James 4:8-10)

Thanks K man.

God bless.

 

[Koineman]

Thanks K man.

God bless.

No problem. Protestants need to understand that the Catholic teaching on penance does not endorse any idea that acts of penance pay for sin. Acts of penance are, in Catholic teaching (unless I’ve misunderstood it), the necessary fruits of repentance, as indicated by John the Baptist when he said to “bear fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

 

[Reuben_J]

No problem. Protestants need to understand that the Catholic teaching on penance does not endorse any idea that acts of penance pay for sin. Acts of penance are, in Catholic teaching (unless I’ve misunderstood it), the necessary fruits of repentance, as indicated by John the Baptist when he said to “bear fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

Again, thanks. Without going into the long of it, I think it is not within the scope of this thread, you are right for saying that penance does not pay for sin. That much is major clarification because this subject is very easily misunderstood. The official stance of the Church can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church #1098 to #1442 that covers topic such as Interior Penance, The many Forms of Penance in Christian Life and the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation. It’s pertinent to note that CCC 1441 states unequivocally that Only God Forgives Sin.

Penance is one of the few steps in Reconciliation, in showing regret about sin and into the process of rehabilitation of oneself in the forgiveness of sin. Catholics will tell you of the healing effect of this Sacrament in our spiritual lives.

God bless.

 

[Prosmith]

Chicken and egg question, isn’t it? How could Christ save us if we don’t work to show for our faith? No, I am not trying to dispute you but I feel all these are just semantic. If we have faith and yet do nothing, then we are like the proverbial goats in Mathew 25, which you did not address in your reply.

Really?

**penance **

1. voluntary self-punishment to atone for a sin, crime, etc.
2. a feeling of regret for one’s wrongdoings
3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity
   a. a punishment usually consisting of prayer, fasting, etc., undertaken voluntarily as an expression of penitence for sin
   b. a punishment of this kind imposed by church authority as a condition of absolution

I shall give you a more impartial example of penance in the Scripture. It is in Jonah 3 where the Ninevites and their King repented by fasting and covering with sackcloth. The act of fasting and humbling themselves by using sackcloth is penance.

*Jonah 1:1 … “Go to the great city of Nineveh(C) and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

Jonah 3 :3 Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh.

Jonah 3:5-9 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:

“By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”​

*

You were saying it is not about trying to be perfect. I showed you Jesus did ask us to be perfect. Then you say because that’s how we know Jesus. How could we be saved then if we do not know Jesus? So even with your rationale, we still have to try to be perfect in order that we know Jesus. It is through Jesus only that we are saved because he is the way, the truth and the life.

God bless you.

Well, if in what you are saying is sort of a refutation to some evangelical ideals that faith (being belief alone) is all you need for salvation, then I totally see your point. What I am in saying though is that especially the parable about the sheep and goats in Matthew 25, this is totally about knowing Jesus and becoming deeper and deeper joined to him, learning from him through obidience. Our abilities don’t come from within us, they come from Jesus from our abiding in him. The saving grace is a gift from God. Our works show our faith and our faith is what continues to make us more open to knowing him more and wanting to live more within him because he is so infinitely wonderful. But, he is our Savior, him and him alone. Only our faith in him can bring about the saving grace.

 

[Prosmith]

You were saying it is not about trying to be perfect. I showed you Jesus did ask us to be perfect. Then you say because that’s how we know Jesus. How could we be saved then if we do not know Jesus? So even with your rationale, we still have to try to be perfect in order that we know Jesus. It is through Jesus only that we are saved because he is the way, the truth and the life.

God bless you.

Amen to that and I agree with your statement, however it is only by God’s help and his working within us that we reach toward perfection. We cannot do that ourselves.