Works for justifcation, salvation, or both? Help!

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This is my first time posting, and I hope you all can help me. I’m a cradle Catholic who has just recently discovered the beauty of the church and have been devouring books and tapes by Tim Staples, Scott Hahn, James Akin, and Bob Sungenis. I have 2 very fundamentalist baptist friends who I want to better be able to explain my faith to. Salvation is always their topic of choice.

My question seems so basic, but I am so confused!

Are good works necessary for salvation, or for further justification after baptism. Here is the scenario I have in mind: If an adult is baptized into the Catholic church, theoretically does not good works but stays out of mortal sin, will he still go to heaven? If he was not further justified /sanctified by good works, will he just have to spend more time in purgatory? If so, does this means works are not necesary for salvation - only for progress justification - as long as you stay out of mortal sin and were initially justified in baptism? This seems to contradict James 2:14-26, but I got the idea from an article by James Akin titled ‘Righteousness and Merit’. He is a great apolgoist so I’m sure I must have misunderstood him, but he seemd to say that we don’t need to ‘do anything’ after being justified in baptism to go to heaven as long as we stay out of mortal sin. Please help me understand works and its relationship to the processes of justification, and salvation. Thank you!
 
Sounds right: “You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.”

Take the example of a person who dies soon after he’s baptised. Assuming that he did not commit any sin in the duration between baptism and death, he doesn’t “spend time” in Purgatory. He’s completely purified in Baptism, and so he has no need of a further “scrub-down” before the Wedding Feast.

Does it contradict James 2? No.

As Jimmy writes, James 2 involves the growth in justification after one is initially justified in Baptism. Jimmy also points out that the only place in the Council of Trent where James 2 was mentioned is in the context of progressive justification. What James 2 says is that progressive justification isn’t accomplished by intellectual assent alone.

So, to return to our baptized friend, he couldn’t claim in the duration between baptism and death that intellectual assenting to Trinity, for example—without doing any good works—is how he grows in justification. In terms of progressive justification, giving intellectual assent to the Trinity without doing good works is “dead”. Intellectual assent alone doesn’t get the progressive justification gears going.

It doesn’t mean that a baptized person who doesn’t do any good works, and thus, does not grow in progressive justification, is necessarily Hell-bound. It just means that he doesn’t grow in progressive justification. That’s all.

And in the case of our baptized friend, that’s exactly what happens: he’s baptized and so is justified. He’ll go to Heaven. But he doesn’t have an opportunity to perform any good works after he’s baptized. So he doesn’t grow in justification. To use Jimmy’s language, when our friend gets to the Pearly Gates, he’ll find out that his “quantity” of justification in Heaven is the exact same “quantity” of justification he received the moment he was baptized.
 
Does this mean that faith AND works are not necessary for salvation - just progressive justification as long as one remains out of mortal sin? I though the Church taught that both faith and works are needed for salvation (not just justification).

I’m sorry to keep on this point, but if I really want to make sure I have this right.
 
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LisaP:
Does this mean that faith AND works are not necessary for salvation - just progressive justification as long as one remains out of mortal sin? I though the Church taught that both faith and works are needed for salvation (not just justification).

I’m sorry to keep on this point, but if I really want to make sure I have this right.
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Our initial justification is freely given. However, after we have been justified (born again), we must strive to “follow the spirit, not the flesh”, as St. Paul says. Now, if we are following the spirit, we will do good, for this is what the Spirit will prompt us to do. As we resist the inordinate movements of the flesh, and follow the promptings of the spirit, we will be sanctifying our soul - both by resisting sin (which strengthens our soul) and obeying God by doing good, which will draw us closer to God.

As we allow ourselves to be guided by the spirit of God to do good, our souls are more closely united to God. Conversely, if we resist God’s grace (by following the flesh) we move farther away from God.

Good works help to sanctify our soul because they are the cooperation of our free will with the movements of Divine grace. The more perfect our cooperation, the closer the union between ourselves and God becomes. Eventually, we are totally guided by the Holy Spirit and thus have a perfect union with God. St. Paul speaks of this when he says “it is not longer I that live, but Christ that liveth in me”.

In addition, God rewards all good deeds, either in this life, the next, or both. Often times the reward for following God’s grace by doing good, is an increase in sanctification. All goodness and holiness come from God, and He gives to whom He will.

The Bible says “let you light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven”. One who “glorifies God” by doing good, will certainly receive much grace from God; and it is the grace of God that will make us holy.

When the bible says we “are justified by works and not by faith alone” it is speaking of a secondary kind of justification which could also be called “sanctification”.

I hope this helps a little.
 
I need to correct the statement I made earlier:

“Jimmy also points out that the only place in the Council of Trent where James 2 was mentioned is in the context of progressive justification.”

It should be:

“Jimmy also points out that the only place in the Council of Trent where “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” was mentioned is in the context of progressive justification.”

That would be found in Session VI, Chapter 10.
 
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LisaP:
I though the Church taught that both faith and works are needed for salvation (not just justification).
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If by “salvation” you mean “getting to Heaven” then what you need is the grace of justification, which you get through baptism. This grace gives you faith, hope and charity—without which you cannot go to Heaven.

If by “works” you mean feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc., then you can get to Heaven without them. A person who dies right after getting baptized is an example.
 
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LisaP:
This is my first time posting, and I hope you all can help me. I’m a cradle Catholic who has just recently discovered the beauty of the church and have been devouring books and tapes by Tim Staples, Scott Hahn, James Akin, and Bob Sungenis. I have 2 very fundamentalist baptist friends who I want to better be able to explain my faith to. Salvation is always their topic of choice.

My question seems so basic, but I am so confused!

Are good works necessary for salvation, or for further justification after baptism. Here is the scenario I have in mind: If an adult is baptized into the Catholic church, theoretically does not good works but stays out of mortal sin, will he still go to heaven? If he was not further justified /sanctified by good works, will he just have to spend more time in purgatory? If so, does this means works are not necesary for salvation - only for progress justification - as long as you stay out of mortal sin and were initially justified in baptism? This seems to contradict James 2:14-26, but I got the idea from an article by James Akin titled ‘Righteousness and Merit’. He is a great apolgoist so I’m sure I must have misunderstood him, but he seemd to say that we don’t need to ‘do anything’ after being justified in baptism to go to heaven as long as we stay out of mortal sin. Please help me understand works and its relationship to the processes of justification, and salvation. Thank you!
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Hi Lisa! 👋

The way that James uses the word “works” is different from the way Paul does. Paul specifically speaks of “works of the law” those hundreds of little rules and regulations that were part of the Mosaic law… James is speaking of Christ-like behavior when he’s talking about works.

Catholics and fundamentalists use the words “faith” and “works” in different ways. Fundamentalists tend to lump faith and works together under the heading of “faith”. Catholics don’t. Many fundamentalists misunderstand what Catholics mean by “works”. They seem to think it’s a reference to the sacraments or some particular rituals. Of course, that isn’t true. Try explaining it to them like this:

Catholics accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. We accept Jesus as Savior by acknowledging that Jesus died for our sins and that salvation is through him alone. Jesus is our Lord in that we live in obedience to him. Savior=faith; Lord=works.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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LisaP:
This is my first time posting, and I hope you all can help me. I’m a cradle Catholic who has just recently discovered the beauty of the church and have been devouring books and tapes by Tim Staples, Scott Hahn, James Akin, and Bob Sungenis. I have 2 very fundamentalist baptist friends who I want to better be able to explain my faith to. Salvation is always their topic of choice.

My question seems so basic, but I am so confused!

Are good works necessary for salvation, or for further justification after baptism. Here is the scenario I have in mind: If an adult is baptized into the Catholic church, theoretically does not good works but stays out of mortal sin, will he still go to heaven? If he was not further justified /sanctified by good works, will he just have to spend more time in purgatory? If so, does this means works are not necesary for salvation - only for progress justification - as long as you stay out of mortal sin and were initially justified in baptism? This seems to contradict James 2:14-26, but I got the idea from an article by James Akin titled ‘Righteousness and Merit’. He is a great apolgoist so I’m sure I must have misunderstood him, but he seemd to say that we don’t need to ‘do anything’ after being justified in baptism to go to heaven as long as we stay out of mortal sin. Please help me understand works and its relationship to the processes of justification, and salvation. Thank you!
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Hi, Lisa.

Scott Hahn??? James Akin??? You cavort with THOSE heretics, philosophically???

Just teasing.

The answer to your basic question is “yes and no.” Akin’s answer, summarized by you, is too mathematical.

Let’s deal with an adult sinner. Hypo: Let’s say we have an adult who graduates from porn addict to totally rejecting all grace from God and he becomes a graceless sexual serial killer who is eligible for the lowest, darkest, hottest parts of Hell, where the sinners are subjected to wild mangling by enthusiastic demons.

But God, in His indefatiguable love and enthusiasm for salvation, sends the sexual serial killer the free grace of salvation in a way that “tickles his brain” into finally seeking salvation. He goes to confession. The priest absolves. Though the serial killer has an unbelievable mountain of temporal punishment to pay back, he is, nonetheless, in a state of grace, at that moment in time.

Does this animal who found salvation a moment before have to do good works to get to Heaven?

Nope. Not according to Roman Catholic doctrine.

So, if a husband whose wife was previously heartlessly murdered by the serial killer correctly deduced the serial killer’s culpability and followed him to the confessional and shoots and kills the serial killer with a gun, after absolution but before the serial killer commences his first complete thought after absolution, well, the serial killer “makes it.” He’s saved without good works, isn’t he?

HOWEVER…

Suppose the sexual serial killer’s act of contrition in the confessional, after he finishes by honestly thinking, and saying, “I firmly resolve, with the help of your grace, to sin no more, and to avoid near occasions of sin,” adds, “And, oh, by the way, God, please send to me the grace of faith, but faith, alone, by backing-out-of the grace of faith any grace impelling me to do the constant, on-going works implications of faith.”

In my opinion, the serial killer has just invalidated his contrition, and is damned.

“Faith alone” is offensive to God.

God hates “faith alone,” in a special way.

Proof: The Parable of the Good Samaritan.

TO BE CONTINUED
 
CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST

The Parable of the Good Samaritan

In that parable, a guy is mugged, and left in the ditch along the road.

A priest, a Levite, and Samaritan pass by.

Now, the reason why Christ put the Samaritan in the parable is because the Samaritan was, by definition, a “non-believer.” He “lacked faith.”

This draws attention to the faith of the priest and the Levite – a member of the priestly tribe.

By definition, they were “believers.” They presumably HAD “faith.”

When the priest comes, he looks, and passes. Faith, but no works, right?

When the Levite comes, he looks and passes. Faith, but no works, right?

When the Samaritan comes, the Samaritan takes care of the mugging victim’s every need. He bandages him, takes him to an inn, feeds him, and pays for bed and board.

Christ NASTILY CONDEMNS the ones with “faith without works.” And, He commends the one “faithless” one who performed wonderful good works only.

Truth: Those who have faith without works, doctrinally, don’t have faith. Faith is a “works machine.” Doctrinally seeking “faith alone” is to seek to be what Christ CLEARLY DESPISES in the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

Doctrinally seeking “faith alone” is probably sinful. It’s a “ticket to Hell.”

Faith is a “works machine.” As soon as faith comes alive in a heart, the heart says, “Works! I want to do works! Where are works for me to do! I want to make the world a better place! Let me contribute!”

I know that I am using very, very, VERY strong language, here, but I am just being clear. Ultimately, your Baptist friends could not be more wrong. If they are genuinely kind, they know this, already.
 
I think I’m getting there. Thank you all so much. I have one point that I’m still confused on, however, after reading the link provided by Akins on ‘Justification in James 2’. I understand this passage is talking about growing in righteousness, but it also seems to have a salvific tone to it ("…can faith save him?") Is this a fair summary that I can give to my Baptist friend (and for my own understanding).

'"James 2 is talking about growing in righteousness after we have initially been justified by Baptism. If a person has ‘saving faith’ (a term my friend likes to use), then his faith will be a ‘faith working in love’, which produces good works and obedience go God. It is not just an intellectual assent. These works futher justify and sanctify us, but are also salvific because as we grow in righteousness, we are less likely to fall into mortal sin, which would cause our spiritual death. That is what James 2 means by ‘can such faith save him’ , and how works ‘contribute’ to our salvation. We must keep in mind though, that
any merit received is only because of the grace of God alive in me, not my own doing - only my cooperation with His grace. "

Is this correct? You all are wonderful. Thank you for your help.
 
Could I suggest reading Ephesians chapter 2? IMHO Paul is pretty clear that

(a) We are saved by grace, through faith
(b) God’s salvation plan is that we are saved to glorify God through good works
(c) Good works are the evidence of our faith. If you don’t see good works, you probably don’t have faith.

Yhis is what confuses people. Good works don’t save you (in fact Eph 2 is very clear on this), but it is an indicator of the faith you have.

John (I think chapter 2) is also pretty clear that obedience is an indicator of whether you walk with God. Same concept, and that is if you truly love God and walk with Him, the good works will come because you WANT TO.
 
Works

What fundamentalist baptists erroneously believe about Catholicism is not based on the Deposit of Faith from Christ and the Apostles, but on their own prejudice, and the exegetical fallacies stemming from an imposed personal theology onto the scriptures. This is pure human effort. Self-interpretation of the bible is a false “works righteousness”, the very Pelagianism that we are wrongly accused of, because it is based on human opinion, human effort.

Their false mantra “Catholicism believes men are justified by their good works” is a misrepresentation, a false conclusion, and a perversion of what good works are. Ask your friends to produce any Catholic document over a 2000 year period that teaches Catholics that we are saved by works apart from Christ. If that does not convince them, offer them a reward if they can find any. You can tell them that “salvation by works alone” is a heresy and was condemned as far back as 451 AD at the Council of Orange. This preconception they have of us is deeply ingrained, and knowledge and information is not the antidote for prejudice and bigotry. Prayer and love is.

Ask your friends if they believe that everyone in heaven is given the same measure. Chances are they will say yes. Then show them John 19:29-30. Giving up having a family for the sake of the kingdom has its REWARDS in heaven. There are FIRST and LAST in heaven. What Jesus tells the rich young man in the preceding verses are WORKS. Then look at what Jesus says to the Apostles after Peter said that they already do all those things. This link will help, but try and get a definition of justification from your friends, and one for salvation that both your friends can agree on. Then you will see that it is not you who is confused.
scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

kepha1
 
Hello Lisa P,

When you ask your fundimentalist freinds, “What good must I do to possess everlasting life?” Do they answer the perfect answer which is, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments”? Do your fundimentalist freinds tell you that if you do not care for the poor you will burn in hell and those who do care for the poor will enter into the kingdom of God as Jesus teaches? If not I would stick with what Jesus tells you and not what your fundimentalist friends tell you.

The way people go to heaven is through Jesus Christ, the reason people go to heaven is because they love God and love for God is accomplished through free from the will of God obedience to the will of God.

Please visit Jesus, What Must I Do To Share In Everlasting Life?

NAB MAT 19:16 “Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

NAB MAT 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
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LisaP:
Is this correct? You all are wonderful. Thank you for your help.
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Looks good, Lisa. I couldn’t have put it better myself.

I especially like the way you explained the salvific tone of James 2 in terms of preserving our justification. Canon XXIV of Trent’s Session Six is based on that idea.
 
Some of the links in the replies above state that ‘works done in sanctifying grace are needed for salvation’. I think this meshes with the salvific tone of James 2 and also shows that ‘faith is not just a decision for Christ’ - but obedience and love. My confusion is how does this sync up with what Mr. Akin says in ‘Rightousness and Merit’: “You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.” I feel like I’m going in circles! Mr. Akin says as long as we stay out of mortal sin, we are ‘saved’ after baptism: “Repent, believe and be baptized; then if you commit mortal sin, repent, believe, and confess .” That’s the ‘formula’ from a Catholic perspective and it’s not complicated. By ‘not doing a diddly do da thing’ is he assuming we know he means ‘faith working in love’? His answer still has me confused! Maybe I’m confused on what a mortal sin is from his perspective…Help Mr. Akin!

Also - can someone explain to me what Fr. Pacwa means by the quote below (from his article ‘Don’t Dismiss Good Works’) ( beliefnet.com/story/143/story_14374_1.html ) I often get asked by my Baptist friend ‘how many works are enough’ to know you’re cooperating with God and have ‘faith working in love’. I know the answer is below, but I’m not sure I understand his point. Here’s part of the article:
…"The question often arises: how many works are enough? Trent’s answer is that Christ is the Vine, and Christians are branches who receive their ability to do good works from Him (John 15:1-6). Because Christ’s strength helps us do good works, we “believe that nothing further is wanting” in them. We don’t have to play the “how much is enough” game. "

Thank you!
 
Hi Lisa,

Me Thinking out loud:

Baptised infants who die before the age of reason go to Heaven. They haven’t done any good works after baptism. In that sense, “You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.”

Same thing for adults who die the moment after they’re baptized. They haven’t done any of the works of mercy, yet they go to Heaven. In that sense, “You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.”

But it’s equally clear that you can lose your justification. How? Mortal sin. Mortal sins of commission are obvious enough. But what about mortal sins of omission? I think they’re possible.

Let’s say, once I’ve received the grace of justification in baptism, I come across a man who’s starving to the point of death. I can help him. God is giving me the grace to help, and it’s obvious that God is calling me to obey Him. But I don’t. I knowingly and willingly refuse to help the man, and as result of my refusal to help, the man dies.

I think that not doing the good work of helping the man, when I could and should have, might be a mortal sin of omission. I could lose my justification in that instance. If I help the man, on the other hand, my justification is increased. Even more fundamentally, through that grace-enabled good work, I don’t lose my justification—my justification is preserved. In that sense, ‘works done in sanctifying grace are needed for salvation.’

End Thinking out loud.
 
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Vincent:
Baptised infants who die before the age of reason go to Heaven. They haven’t done any good works after baptism. In that sense, “You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.”
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Is there any better sign that salvation is a free unearned gift than infant baptism?? :love:

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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LisaP:
This is my first time posting, and I hope you all can help me. I’m a cradle Catholic who has just recently discovered the beauty of the church and have been devouring books and tapes by Tim Staples, Scott Hahn, James Akin, and Bob Sungenis. I have 2 very fundamentalist baptist friends who I want to better be able to explain my faith to. Salvation is always their topic of choice.

My question seems so basic, but I am so confused!

Are good works necessary for salvation, or for further justification after baptism. Here is the scenario I have in mind: If an adult is baptized into the Catholic church, theoretically does not good works but stays out of mortal sin, will he still go to heaven? If he was not further justified /sanctified by good works, will he just have to spend more time in purgatory? If so, does this means works are not necesary for salvation - only for progress justification - as long as you stay out of mortal sin and were initially justified in baptism? This seems to contradict James 2:14-26, but I got the idea from an article by James Akin titled ‘Righteousness and Merit’. He is a great apolgoist so I’m sure I must have misunderstood him, but he seemd to say that we don’t need to ‘do anything’ after being justified in baptism to go to heaven as long as we stay out of mortal sin. Please help me understand works and its relationship to the processes of justification, and salvation. Thank you!
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Faith and works are necessary for salvation. The reason for this is that salvation is a process. Therefore, you are initially justified in baptism. But initial justification does not equal salvation. Once you are initially justified, you must persevere in good works (Phil. 2:12) until you reach salvation (Rom. 13:11). Salvation is the total freedom from sin, when we are in heaven.

In your example, staying away from mortal sin is the same thing as doing good works. Like this: by cooperating with grace and doing good works, you are further justified/sanctified. This further justification/sanctification will help you avoid mortal sin. If you just sit back and do nothing, you will eventually fall into mortal sin. Human beings are not static. You either move forward, or fall backward. So to avoid mortal sin means to move forward in sanctification/justification.
 
Thanks John_Henry,

I like your static/dynamic explanation. After reading all these responses, I guess I could have whittled down my question to a more concise: *after we have been baptized, do we need to grow in justification/sanctification to get to heaven if we do not commit mortal sin? (*assuming if we were baptized as a baby we, at the age of accountability, have our own faith).

Technically, according to Mr. Akin, the answer is no, and I guess he’s right (I’m sure he’ll sleep easier tonight knowing I agree with him!). But, normatively, because most of us don’t die right after we are baptized or we don’t live out our life in a locked room, what you’ve written above applies. Therefore, in the ‘real world’, works are needed for salvation after baptism to increase our justification/sanctification to both strengthen us and to obey the commandment of Jesus which is to love God and others. You can’t carry out those commandments and stay out of mortal sin unless you ‘do some things’ and ‘not’ do other things (all through God’s grace of course!). Failure to love God and others, depending on the circumstances, could be a mortal sin. Does this make sense?
 
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