Works for justifcation, salvation, or both? Help!

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Yeah, there’s a friend of mine raised Catholic, but doesn’t worship or pray or anything anymore. He says his religion (Catholic) says he just has to say the words ‘Lord save me’ or somthing to that effect right before he dies, and he will get to heaven. This way, he can continue to live immorally and repent at the last second.

Gonna suck if death ever comes as a surprise!
 
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ppcpilot:
Gonna suck if death ever comes as a surprise!
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And the longer you wallow in an immoral lifestyle, the harder it will be to repent. Heck, if he can’t do it now, why should he think he will be able to then.
 
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LisaP:
Does this make sense?
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Total sense. After baptism, you have all you need to get to heaven. But, if you live more than 30 seconds after baptism, you must avoid mortal sin until death (or else repent thereof in the sacrament). Any life lived for more than 30 seconds requires people to do something. Eat, sleep, interact. These things involve works. These works will either be sinful or not. If they are not sinful, they are good works and will lead to further justification. If they are sinful they can be venial or mortal. Mortal sin is what you want to avoid. So is venial because an accumulation of venial sins can make it easier to commit mortal sin. Thus, the best way to stay out of mortal sin is to do good works for further justification.
 
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John_Henry:
Total sense. After baptism, you have all you need to get to heaven. But, if you live more than 30 seconds after baptism, you must avoid mortal sin until death (or else repent thereof in the sacrament). Any life lived for more than 30 seconds requires people to do something. Eat, sleep, interact. These things involve works. These works will either be sinful or not. If they are not sinful, they are good works and will lead to further justification. If they are sinful they can be venial or mortal. Mortal sin is what you want to avoid. So is venial because an accumulation of venial sins can make it easier to commit mortal sin. Thus, the best way to stay out of mortal sin is to do good works for further justification.
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Great summary!
 
I think I get it! We’ll see how good I am at explaining it when I see my friends in a few weeks - I’m sure the topic will come up. I’m just a beginner at this and don’t have a lot of confidence yet when trying to explain our faith, or more importantly to them, enough Scripture verses memorized to be able to back up the Church’s teaching. Keep me in your prayers! THANK YOU!! 😃
 
I think I get it! We’ll see how good I am at explaining it when I see my friends in a few weeks - I’m sure the topic will come up. I’m just a beginner at this and don’t have a lot of confidence yet when trying to explain our faith, or more importantly to them, enough Scripture verses memorized to be able to back up the Church’s teaching. Keep me in your prayers! THANK YOU!!😃
 
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LisaP:
I think I get it! We’ll see how good I am at explaining it when I see my friends in a few weeks - I’m sure the topic will come up.
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Tell us how it goes, Lisa!
 
Lisa,

I tried posting this yesterday, but the server was giving me issues. In any case, I will pray for you. “Do not be affraid.” The bible is a Catholic book. There is nothing in it which contradicts the faith. Do not be put on the defensive. One doesn’t have to deny the centrality of faith in salvation. It’s just that that is not the end of the story. Make them account for the verses that make baptism out to be for the remission of sins and salvific. The verses that make salvation out to be a process. The verses that say that salvation can be lost. While maintaining the centrality of faith.

Also, define terms. Don’t speak of salvation as if you are all speaking of the same thing. And emphasize that Catholics DO NOT believe works have anything to do with our translation from being “in Adam” to “in Christ”.

Peace.
 
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ppcpilot:
Yeah, there’s a friend of mine raised Catholic, but doesn’t worship or pray or anything anymore. He says his religion (Catholic) says he just has to say the words ‘Lord save me’ or somthing to that effect right before he dies, and he will get to heaven. This way, he can continue to live immorally and repent at the last second.

Gonna suck if death ever comes as a surprise!
Click to expand...
Hi ppcpilot! 👋

What a shame that:
  1. your friend is so mistaken about what Catholicism teaches
  2. he thinks salvation is a result of a few empty words
  3. he doesn’t know that sincerity and repentence must accompany the words.
In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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John_Henry:
emphasize that Catholics DO NOT believe works have anything to do with our translation from being “in Adam” to “in Christ”.

Peace.
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Hi John_Henry! 👋

You’re right. Works having nothing to do with being made to be “in Christ” (Romans 6:3, 2 Cor 5:17), but they certainly have something to do with “remaining in Christ” (1 John 2:28, John 15:4-6).

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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LisaP:
Does this mean that faith AND works are not necessary for salvation - just progressive justification as long as one remains out of mortal sin? I though the Church taught that both faith and works are needed for salvation (not just justification).

I’m sorry to keep on this point, but if I really want to make sure I have this right.
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There are many verses which talk about what we must do to be saved and indicate that both faith AND works are required and both justify us only by God’s Grace. This is, as has already been pointed out, assuming that you don’t die immediately after baptism.

If you’re interested, I go through many of the verses in posts 90-95 of this thread … forum.catholic.com/showthrea…7215#post107215
 
Hey - just thought I’d let you know that my ‘talk’ went really well with my Baptist friend. I started with baptism and initial justification, citing verses from Titus and Acts, and then followed that up with how our justification/righteousness increases as we live out our faith through works (I worked in Paul’s ‘obedience’ of faith theme throughout Romans, James 2, some verses from 1 John, etc.) I pointed out you have to be careful that when you read ‘works’ in Paul, you have to know what kind of ‘works’ he’s talking about. Then I went on to talk about mortal (‘deadly’ sin according to John) and other verses that show salvation can be lost. When we were done, she said I had done a great job explaining things, but knew there were verses to back up their beliefs and would have to do some research. She especially had a hard time with baptism and how it is more than just an outward profession of faith, but she also couldn’t explain why. She said ‘I know the verses say that, but you can’t take that literally - that’s not what they mean’ After she said it I think she realized how odd it sounded - imagine -a Baptist telling a Catholic not to take the Bible literally! At the very least, I explained that Catholics do not believe we work our way to heaven, and, hopefully, even though she didn’t really show it, I got her thinking that maybe we (Catholics) really do understand God’s plan for us after all and it’s an awesome faith. Thank you!!
 
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