Works necessary for salvation?!

[Vindication]

Yes, we do care. The reason is that the question isn’t between two children who are showing love for their parents; rather, this is like one child who tells the other, “Mommy only loves you because you clean up your toys. Stop doing that, and she’ll hate you!” In that case, we really do care deeply about the answer, because in the absence of a good answer, there’s confusion about what the basis of Mom’s love really is…

Follow Jesus’ example. Go out and tend to the sheep; the poor and the lame. Pope Francis is hammering at this point…for us all to stop being couch Catholics and go out and do like Jesus.

 

[rfournier103]

This is one of the most amazing posts I have ever seen in my two years here. Please read closely…

Real saving faith is demonstrated by good works.
Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation.
Lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart.

True saving faith is always manifested by good works and a life that desires to live in obedience to God.

That is the meaning of what James was talking about in James 2:14-26 when he said “faith without works is dead”

 

[Lion_Heart]

Lion Heart,

I appreciate that you really like this book, and that it has a nihil obstat and an imprimatur. I don’t have a copy of it, so I can’t verify the context of the quote you’ve provided. Twice.

Here’s the thing, though… this is what the Catechism says:

Quoting St Augustine, #2001 states, “Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us.”

#2007-2009 state, “With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. … The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. … The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.”

So, the Catechism states that there is work, and there is merit attached to it (although it flows first from the Father, then to us). Is justification a free gift? Yep. Is salvation likewise a gift of God? Yep. Does it require in us a free response in works of supernatural virtue? Yep.

But… it is! Our response to God’s grace is necessary for salvation!

Not true. Unless I’m mistaking you, it seems that your claim is that all who are justified (i.e., baptized) are also saved. That’s not what the Church teaches.

Blessings,
G.

Greetings in Christ Gorgias,

I’m sure you know the following quotes by heart. – Good to know and to teach them. The teachings of our Catholic Church.
The following quotes are for those who don’t know them.

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be SAVED?

We are NOT justified by what we DO (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING

The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.

Further conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL merit possible:

“The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church.” (Denzinger 1576, 1582)

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

OUR WORK IS NOT A CONDITION OF OUR SALVATION!!!

Rom.4:5 (Jerusalem Bible)
“When a man has NOTHING to show EXCEPT FAITH in the one who justifies sinners, than his faith is COUNTED AS JUSTIFYING HIM.”

Rom.4:5 corresponding with 1 Cor.3:15; If anyone’s WORK is burned (NOTHING to show EXCEPT FAITH), he will suffer loss; but he himself will be SAVED, yet so as through fire (no work, no reward). – If work would be a condition of salvation, those whose work burned, they would end up in hell.

Continued on the next post.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Continuation.

Our work MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

If we would have to work in order to maintain a living faith, that would PUT us into an EXTERNAL COERCION and INTERNAL NECESSITY, and we would have to work to purchase our salvation not for love and for the Glory of God, and ALL our work would go up in smoke at the judgment. In reference 1 Cor.3:11-15.

With other words: If we would have to work to maintain a living faith, then work would be compulsory for salvation and then NO ONE could work for the GLORY OF GOD!!!

God’s gift of faith for us is a LIVING and FORMED FAITH, and it is a LIVING and FORMED FAITH before God as well.

But it is a DEAD FAITH before our neighbors if we don’t work and our neighbors wouldn’t believe we are saved!!! – This is what James talking about in: James 2:14-26.

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE by James Akin

Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. Emphasize mine

NOW WE ARE READY TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS:

a. Is justification a free gift? Yes it is.

b. Is salvation likewise a gift of God? Yes it is.

c. Does it require in us a free response in works of supernatural virtue?
Above are two questions in one sentence. To clearly understand we must separate the two questions.

c/1. Does our salvation require of us a free response? Yes it is required.
Quote: “Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

c/2. Does our salvation require of us works of supernatural virtue/merit? Absolutely NOT!!!
Quote: “We are NOT justified by what we DO (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.” End quote. Emphasize mine.
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

These two answers above are the OFFICIAL TEACHING of the Catholic Church.

Of course we should work as much as we can, NOT for our salvation but for the GLORY OF GOD!!!

Anyone who believes: Work is a condition of our salvation, rejecting the clear teaching of the Catholic Church and accepting the false doctrines of the enemies of the Catholic Church.

Their identity is described continually and repeatedly throughout the Bible.
For example: Acts 20:29-32; Matt.7:15-16; Matt.24:4, 11, 24; 2 Cor.11:13-15; 1 Tim.4:1-3; 2 Pet.2:1-3; Jude 4.

The Word of God and the Catholic Church also teaches:

“We have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved.”
For example: Eph.2:8; “For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God.”

This doesn’t mean someone cannot lose his salvation.
Of course all the elect without exception will end up in heaven.

According to the Catholic Church teaching:

a. It is NOT possible that even one elect could end up in hell.
b. It is also impossible that even one who is not elected to Heaven finally could end up in Heaven.

With love in Christ,
LH.

 

[Gorgias]

But it is a DEAD FAITH before our neighbors if we don’t work and our neighbors wouldn’t believe we are saved!!! – This is what James talking about in: James 2:14-26.

We don’t do good works for the sake of being seen by our neighbors, though…

c/2. Does our salvation require of us works of supernatural virtue/merit? Absolutely NOT!!!
Quote: “We are NOT justified by what we DO (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.”

This, in my opinion, is a misleading way to answer the question. Look at what’s being done here: the question asks something about salvation, and the answer provides a statement about justification! That’s like asking me what I would like to have for dinner, and me answering that bacon and eggs make for a good breakfast!

Here’s the scoop: we are called – through the sanctifying grace we receive in baptism – to practice works of supernatural virtue. We must endeavor to do these works of virtue! Do these works justify us? Of course not. Is the merit that proceeds from these works ours alone? Of course not – the merit belongs primarily to God, and only secondarily to us through God!

Does this mean that, for a person who is baptized but gets hit by a bus immediately afterward, he will not attain to heaven because of a lack of works of supernatural virtue? Of course not! But, for those of us who have the opportunity to cooperate with God’s grace in works of virtue, we must do so – after all, as James tells us, otherwise our “faith without works is dead.”

Anyone who believes: Work is a condition of our salvation, rejecting the clear teaching of the Catholic Church

Good works are the result of our justification, and evidence of our cooperation with God’s grace. To call them a “condition” is the wrong approach to describing what’s going on…

This doesn’t mean someone cannot lose his salvation.
Of course all the elect without exception will end up in heaven.

According to the Catholic Church teaching:

a. It is NOT possible that even one elect could end up in hell.
b. It is also impossible that even one who is not elected to Heaven finally could end up in Heaven.

Here’s the problem: can you identify who ‘the elect’ are? Nope. We won’t know who’s ‘the elect’ until they are in heaven. So, there’s no point in saying “the elect do not end up in hell” or “those not elect cannot end up in Heaven” – it’s a tautology, and does not help us understand the situation. The elect are those who are justified, who are sanctified, and who persevere until the end; these are the saints in heaven.

Blessings,
G.

 

[thistle]

How are “works” defined?
I would call daily prayer, for example, works.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Works are not a part of the Catholic economy of salvation, which works like this:

• Baptism places us in a State of Grace.
• Mortal sin removes us from a State of Grace, though it can be restored through Confession.
• If we die in a State of Grace, we go to heaven (with maybe a layover in purgatory).

It’s really that simple. Notice that there is no mention of “works” (apart from Baptism and Confession).

Good works will not help us (salvation-wise) at if we are in a State of Grace. We are already assured heaven. Good works won’t change the equation. We can’t be in a state of Extra-Grace.

Good works will not help us (salvation-wise) if we are NOT in a State of Grace. We can’t work our way out of mortal sin.

Therefore, good works will NEVER help us (salvation-wise),

However, we may sin by NOT doing good works at the appropriate time and place, such as failing to help someone in distress. These sins of neglect can rise to the level of mortal sin, depending on our knowledge and intent.

Nobody is expected, as a condition of salvation, to go looking for good works to perform (this would be things like soup kitchens and such). Failure to work in a charity is not mortally sinful.

Nothing I have said here is my opinion - this is 100% the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

 

[Gorgias]

However, we may sin by NOT doing good works at the appropriate time and place, such as failing to help someone in distress. These sins of neglect can rise to the level of mortal sin, depending on our knowledge and intent.

Ding ding ding! Give that man a kewpie doll! So, to rephrase: if we sin by not doing good works, then we’re not in a state of grace, and if we die outside of a state of grace, we will not attain to heaven.

Nobody is expected, as a condition of salvation, to go looking for good works to perform (this would be things like soup kitchens and such). Failure to work in a charity is not mortally sinful.

No one has suggested that this is so; that is simply your construction – a straw man to be knocked down.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

David, I understand what you are saying and I agree. Someone is either in a state of grace or not in a state of grace. However, I don’t think it is absolutely incorrect to state that works help our salvation. For instance, the Council of Trent states in Chapter 10 of the Decree on Justification,

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, "Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.
history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

When you say that good works do not help us, this is true in the sense I outlined above which is the sense you clearly intended to communicate, but it is not true that good works have no effect on our attainment to salvation. If we do not do good works, then it is inevitable that we will fall into sin and lose our heavenly reward.

 

[DavidFilmer]

So, to rephrase: if we sin by not doing good works, then we’re not in a state of grace, and if we die outside of a state of grace, we will not attain to heaven.

It is a clumsy rephrase. And I am talking about mortal sin only, not venial sin (because the OP asked about salvation, which can only be threatened by mortal sin). And mortal sin has the whole knowledge and intent dimensions. A person must have *complete knowledge *that neglecting this work is mortally sinful, and have perfect intent to commit this sin. ONLY by neglecting a good work under these extreme circumstances could we incur mortal sin. Neglecting acts of charity under less extreme conditions could be venally sinful, which does not remove us from a State of Grace (no matter how many such sins we accumulate).

If a guy on the street asks me for money, am I obliged (under pain of mortal sin) to give him money? No.

If a person is drowning, and I am a poor swimmer, am I obliged (under pain of mortal sin) to jump into the water to attempt a rescue? No. (Even if I am a strong swimmer, which I happen to be, I might judge the conditions to be too hazardous.)

If I am the sole witness of a severe automobile accident, am I obliged (under pain of mortal sin) to call for help? Probably. Am I obliged to help myself? That depends on many conditions (Is there fire? Am I elderly?)

No one has suggested that this is so; that is simply your construction – a straw man to be knocked down.

I sometimes provide additional relevant facts that were not specifically asked about, in order to prevent further confusion. But it is not a straw man - it is the doctrine of the Church. Consider it a bonus.

 

[DavidFilmer]

When you say that good works do not help us, this is true in the sense I outlined above which is the sense you clearly intended to communicate, but it is not true that good works have no effect on our attainment to salvation. If we do not do good works, then it is inevitable that we will fall into sin and lose our heavenly reward.

The OP asked if works were necessary for salvation. The Catholic response is, absolutely not.

The OP did NOT ask if good works favorably increase our disposition towards God (and, thus, increase the likelihood that we will attain salvation). That is undeniably true (and it is difficult for people, even many protestants, to argue), but it is not what the OP asked.

The OP asked if works are necessary. They are not. They are undeniably beneficial, but they are NOT necessary. This is the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

 

[Gorgias]

The OP asked if works were necessary for salvation. The Catholic response is, absolutely not.

Let’s look at this in another light. Certainly, you’re correct in a particular sense: after all, if someone is baptized, and immediately thereafter has a heart attack and dies, we believe that they will attain to heaven. In this sense, then, works aren’t strictly necessary. Yet, let’s see if we can find an analogous situation, about which there is some helpful information.

In his discussion of penance in the Summa Theologiae (III.84.5), Aquinas asks the question of “whether this sacrament [of reconciliation] is necessary for salvation?” His answer is:

“I answer that, A thing is necessary for salvation in two ways: first, absolutely; secondly, on a supposition. A thing is absolutely necessary for salvation, if no one can obtain salvation without it, as, for example, the grace of Christ, and the sacrament of Baptism, whereby a man is born again in Christ. The sacrament of Penance is necessary on a supposition, for it is necessary, not for all, but for those who are in sin. For it is written (2 Chronicles 33), “Thou, Lord, God of the righteous, hast not appointed repentance to the righteous, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, nor to those who sinned not against Thee.” But “sin, when it is completed, begetteth death” (James 1:15). Consequently it is necessary for the sinner’s salvation that sin be taken away from him; which cannot be done without the sacrament of Penance, wherein the power of Christ’s Passion operates through the priest’s absolution and the acts of the penitent, who co-operates with grace unto the destruction of his sin. For as Augustine says (Tract. lxxii in Joan. [Implicitly in the passage referred to, but explicitly Serm. xv de verb Apost.), ‘He Who created thee without thee, will not justify thee without thee.’ Therefore it is evident that after sin the sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation, even as bodily medicine after man has contracted a dangerous disease.”

Speaking analogously, then – since Aquinas is talking about ‘reconciliation’ not ‘works’, per se – I would claim that good works are necessary *on supposition. That is, for those to whom the possibility of doing works of supernatural virtue exists, they should do these works; after all, it is an evidence that their faith is not dead. In these, then, there is a certain suppositional necessity. However, it is not an absolute necessity (which is the case, David, that I think you’re arguing against)…

 

[DavidFilmer]

Speaking analogously, then – since Aquinas is talking about ‘reconciliation’ not ‘works’, per se – I would claim that good works are necessary on supposition. That is, for those to whom the possibility of doing works of supernatural virtue exists, they should do these works; after all, it is an evidence that their faith is not dead. In these, then, there is a certain suppositional necessity. However, it is not an absolute necessity (which is the case, David, that I think you’re arguing against)

I’m not really following the analogy.

Aquinas said that Baptism is necessary, and Confession is only necessary if we suppose we have mortal sin. But, if we DO have mortal sin, Confession becomes necessary - you can’t get to heaven without it.

I can relate this to works of necessity - such as helping someone in distress. Knowingly and willfully ignoring this person’s plight could be mortally sinful, so the work becomes necessary in order to remain in a State of Grace.

But I perceive that, in my life anyway, such works of necessity are rare - situations where I felt that if I neglected a work then I would be damned to hell as a result of NOT doing something. I cannot recall an example where I felt an act was necessary.

Actually, I suppose neglecting the precepts of the Church (which could be thought of as “good works”) could get me in trouble. I could make a case that those particular five works are necessary. But I don’t think that’s what most people have in mind when they think of “good works.”

 

[steve_b]

“We have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved.”
For example:** Eph.2:8;** “For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God.”

This doesn’t mean someone cannot lose his salvation.
Of course all the elect without exception will end up in heaven.

Yet Ephesians 2:10 says

we are created by God to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do. Therefore, what happens to the one who doesn’t do what they are created to do by God …which is to do good works…what happens to THEM? (assuming they have no impediments preventing them from doing so…etc)

Matthew 3:10 , Luke 3:9 , Luke 13:7-9 , Matthew 25:44-46

 

[Theodore_Jones]

hey all,

I’m talking to my brother about faith and works. He finally has it through his head that Catholics believe that ALL faith and ALL works come from the Holy Spirit, and NOT from ourselves. We do not believe that we can save ourselves by our own merits; but rather, Jesus saves us through the Holy Spirit, and our free will cooperates with the grace given.

My brother still insists that Catholics believe you MUST do good works to be saved.

I said that if a person were baptized and received the Holy Spirit, but died 2 seconds later, they would be saved without doing any good works. But if the person lives for another 40 years, they must continue cooperating with God’s grace, which includes the faith and love given to us by the Holy Spirit.

He keeps trying to say that’s not true, because the person dying seconds after baptism needs to have good works in addition to their faith.

Who’s right?

Really, neither of you. Salvation is predicated upon the faith to obey the law which has been added. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was the sin of murder by malice aforethought. The Sinai code does not allow the sin of murder caused by bloodshed relative to malice aforethought to be resolved. However in order for God to prove that he is merciful the law was changed upon Jesus’ ascension Heb.7:12, by adding one word to the law. Therefore the only lawfully soteriological procedure for any individual’s salvation is explicitly codified. Having been authored by the hand of a Mediator and put into effect through angles at Pentecost in Jerusalem. See Acts 7:53 & Gal. 3:19. The only Way the word REPENT can be obeyed as a soteriological procedure is by the faith of confessing directly to God that you are truly sorry Jesus was murdered when he was crucified and be baptized into your confession. In Paul’s letter to you he states “For it is not those who hear the law who a righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom. 2:13

 

[Gorgias]

I can relate this to works of necessity - such as helping someone in distress.

Why only ‘works of necessity’?

Actually, I suppose neglecting the precepts of the Church (which could be thought of as “good works”) could get me in trouble. I could make a case that those particular five works are necessary. But I don’t think that’s what most people have in mind when they think of “good works.”

Hmm…so then, what does “faith without works is dead” mean? Or is it just metaphorical? Or does it point to some sort of works that are necessary in the context of faith?