Works not required?

[Mangy_Donkey]

James: 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Can anyone tell me how a solo fide denomination would defend these versus, there must be an attempt I have just never seen or read one. Thanks

 

[Church_Militant]

You DO mean James 2 right?

Most just read around it or don’t get into it. The others that I have seen will try to tell you that James and Paul were speaking fo different kinds of faith, something not supported by the Word of God but only by their own out-of-context twist of interpretation.

Here’s a good Bible study outline that shows most of their arguments and the Catholic refutation of them.

The CDs by John Martignoni are available at the cost of shipping and they are ALL very very good!
Pax tecum,

 

[porthos11]

My question is, does no one ever read Matthew 25?

I really can’t see why there are those who can’t seem to see the plain fact that Jesus will throw into hell those who did not do to the least of these his brethren.

 

[Flopfoot]

I have brought Matthew 25 up with them before and they have their little dance they do to get around it.

They say the good works are not what makes someone righteous, but they are just the evidence that these people are already righteous. They say that once someone is saved by faith then the Spirit will work in them or something causing them to do good works and then Jesus will be able to tell that they are the righteous ones. Whereas people who aren’t saved can’t possibly do works that are pleasing to God since they don’t do them out of the Spirit.

As for the bit about ‘un-saved’ people not being able to do good works, it sounds completely ridiculous, but apart from the appeal to common sense (the action is still the same! Why does it matter who does it? There is the story of the Good Samaritan I guess…) I haven’t figured out any other way to prove that ‘un-saved’ people’s good works are in fact pleasing to God (although I’m sure there is one, likely even a biblical proof, but I don’t know much Scripture).

As for the bit about ‘saved’ people will automatically do good works, I know a few counters to that. First - we still have free will… also there are plenty of examples of Christians doing bad things. Their response is that there are 2 cases - that if we still freely choose to not do good works then that may be evidence that we don’t really have faith in the first place hence aren’t really saved, or on the other hand, that we are still saved and any sin we do is, well, just normal sin (they don’t think theres such thing as mortal as opposed to venial sin) and Jesus can still tell that that person has faith and is saved or whatever, they still remain in a state of grace.

Another counter is to bring up the logical argument of the contrapositive. Basically if a implies b then this means that not b implies not a. So if being saved implies that you will do good works, then not doing good works implies that you are not saved. The order doesn’t matter, the point is faith and works always go together (and bring up that bit from the book of James about “faith without works is dead”). They will say that the order does matter and show you something from the bible about how we can’t rely on our works, that if we don’t have faith yet try to ‘earn’ our way into heaven then it won’t work. What we should then do is agree that in the end it is only by the grace of God that we can get into heaven, we can’t force Him to let us in - but He has told us what He wants from us in Matt 25:31-40.

The funny thing is when you argue this, the longer you go the closer you come to basically saying the same thing, they are ‘almost’ agreeing with Catholic teaching that the way you live your life actually does matter - but they will never actually admit to agreeing with any Catholic teaching, they will still say that something which I say is a mortal sin won’t necessarily cause someone to lose their state of grace, and etc.

Still, in most recent case, he was an Anglican preacher, I can’t seriously expect him to convert can I? I was only evangelising in self defence anyway, he targetted me, not the other way around.

 

[EPHRIAM777]

<<<<James: 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? >>>>>

Eph says…

Sure…right here is where James made an error in his theology…James says right there that the DEVILS ( demons literally )…have FAITH in God…just like WE as Christians have Faith in God…

He was wrong to say the devils have faith in God just like we as Christians have Faith in God…! That doesn’t make James and evil guy…just mistaken in what he said…!

…Demons don’t have FAITH in God…all they have is BELIEF in God… “Belief that God exists”…They never had one day of “FAITH” in God ever…or they wouldn’t have rebelled against God and be deserving of the punishment of eternal Hell…!

For OUR faith in God…God gives US eternal life…So our faith is not the same as the devils “belief” at all…!

FAITH and BELIEF aren’t synonyms…!

James therefore in his Epistle…shows us he didn’t know the differences between what FAITH means…and what BELIEF means…! He thought it was the same thing and it obviously isn’t…!

FOR EXAMPLE :

You can BELIEVE that an airplane can fly…you can go to school and learn all about flight…aerodynamics and engines and thrust etc etc… But you then NEVER get on an airplane out of fear…You can BELIEVE all day and night that it can fly…but you never get on one to DO it…!

FAITH on the other hand is …walking up those steps to the airplane…strapping yourself into that seat with your seatbelt and telling the Pilot…“let’s go”…! It’s not enough to just “know it can fly” and then do nothing…you have to take ACTION on what you faith…to really have faith in it…!

James didn’t know all that…because James wasn’t a Biblical scholar…James was the son of a Carpenter…! PAUL on the other hand WAS a Biblical Scholar and he did know the difference…!

<<<<<Can anyone tell me how a solo fide denomination would defend these versus, there must be an attempt I have just never seen or read one. Thanks>>>>

Eph says…

Sure…they use the Holy Scriptures…!

Just read Galatians for one example…it is the FREEDOM LETTER of the Christian Church…
Paul through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote Galatians…and that letter teaches about 'Faith Alone"…!
As does I might add the rest of the NT…except for James…!

God inspired James to write his “Epistle of James”… and through James’s own hand God can teach us certain very important lessons…!

James therefore although not a very big book…is a very important book in the Holy Scriptures…and that’s why God made sure it was in the Bible…!

 

[neweyes]

There are Christians who cannot do good works, do to a physical or mental disability. Sorry, but the one-size-fits-all salvation rules don’t apply to everyone in Christ. He knows your heart, he knows the work he has prepared in advance for you to do, and he knows the opportunities we all, from time to time, miss.

Not one of us can ever do enough good works in this world. We do what we can to please our Father, who has saved us by his love, mercy and grace.

 

[EPHRIAM777]

BTW…

James was also wrong to say “faith without works is dead”…! That goes against what Jesus and Paul said.!

To James “works” meant …keep the OT Law of Moses…!

 

[thistle]

EPHRIAM777:

BTW…

James was also wrong to say “faith without works is dead”…! That goes against what Jesus and Paul said.!

To James “works” meant …keep the OT Law of Moses…!

www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

 

[Fish]

EPHRIAM777:

BTW…

James was also wrong to say “faith without works is dead”…! That goes against what Jesus and Paul said.!

To James “works” meant …keep the OT Law of Moses…!

Are you saying that the bible is incorrect? Don’t you as a protestant believe in sola scriptura?

 

[djrakowski]

EPHRIAM777:

Sure…right here is where James made an error in his theology…James says right there that the DEVILS ( demons literally )…have FAITH in God…just like WE as Christians have Faith in God…

Are you a sola scriptura Christian? If so, how do you feel about your Bible supposedly containing doctrinal error? Or, would the Bible be better without the book of James, which Martin Luther called an “epistle of straw?”

EPHRIAM777:

Just read Galatians for one example…it is the FREEDOM LETTER of the Christian Church…
Paul through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote Galatians…and that letter teaches about 'Faith Alone"…!
As does I might add the rest of the NT…except for James…!

Except, there’s lots more on the subject of salvation, some of it straight from the mouth of Our Lord and Savior:

Matthew 16:27 - “For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.”

John 14:15 - “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

John 14:21-24 - “‘Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.’ Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him, ‘Master, (then) what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.’”

EPHRIAM777:

God inspired James to write his “Epistle of James”… and through James’s own hand God can teach us certain very important lessons…!

And, according to you, some errors. How is a Christian to determine which parts of the Bible are errant, and which are inerrant? This could get very messy, very quickly!

EPHRIAM777:

James therefore although not a very big book…is a very important book in the Holy Scriptures…and that’s why God made sure it was in the Bible…!

If it is the sole source of forming a Christian theology, then how could it be both errant and important?

 

[allischalmers]

Titus 3;8 --------that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintian good works----
The believing comes first and then the good works !

forever Baptist
allischalmers

 

[Eden]

allischalmers:

Titus 3;8 --------that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintian good works----
The believing comes first and then the good works !

forever Baptist
allischalmers

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the “saved” and the "unsaved."

www.scripturecatholic.com

More Titus:

Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.

Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.

 

[Tom]

EPHRIAM777:

<<<<James: 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? >>>>>
Eph says…
Sure…right here is where James made an error in his theology…James says right there that the DEVILS ( demons literally )…have FAITH in God…just like WE as Christians have Faith in God…

You’re really saying Scripture is wrong? And your theology is sounder than St James? WOW!!! Well, let’s just look at your error:

EPHRIAM777:

Sure…right here is where James made an error in his theology…James says right there that the DEVILS ( demons literally )…have FAITH in God…just like WE as Christians have Faith in God.

No it does not!
drbo.org:

James 2: 14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: 16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Where do you find your contention in this passage?

 

[Tom]

EPHRIAM777:

He was wrong to say the devils have faith in God just like we as Christians have Faith in God…! That doesn’t make James and evil guy…just mistaken in what he said…! Demons don’t have FAITH in God…all they have is BELIEF in God… “Belief that God exists”…They never had one day of “FAITH” in God ever…or they wouldn’t have rebelled against God and be deserving of the punishment of eternal Hell…!

Where does it say this?
drbo.org:

James 2: 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

 

[Tom]

EPHRIAM777:

James therefore in his Epistle…shows us he didn’t know the differences between what FAITH means…and what BELIEF means…! He thought it was the same thing and it obviously isn’t…!

The Epistle shows that James does know the truth, but you I’m afraid cannot read it.

EPHRIAM777:

FOR EXAMPLE :
You can BELIEVE that an airplane can fly…you can go to school and learn all about flight…aerodynamics and engines and thrust etc etc… But you then NEVER get on an airplane out of fear…You can BELIEVE all day and night that it can fly…but you never get on one to DO it…!

You not being able to pilot the airplane does not mean the airplane cannot fly.

 

[Tom]

EPHRIAM777:

BTW…
James was also wrong to say “faith without works is dead”…! That goes against what Jesus and Paul said.! To James “works” meant …keep the OT Law of Moses…!

No actually you have this backwards. It’s Paul who is referring to “work of the Law” not James. Paul even mentions several of these “works”, which are all works of the Law. James is not referring to works of the Law, but works of Christian charity.

 

[Tom]

neweyes:

There are Christians who cannot do good works, do to a physical or mental disability. Sorry, but the one-size-fits-all salvation rules don’t apply to everyone in Christ. He knows your heart, he knows the work he has prepared in advance for you to do, and he knows the opportunities we all, from time to time, miss.

Not one of us can ever do enough good works in this world. We do what we can to please our Father, who has saved us by his love, mercy and grace.

I’m confused here, there are Christians who cannot pray? You do understand that prayer is a “work” don’t you? Probably the most important “work” one can do.

 

[Fish]

I think EPHRIAM777 and neweyes have left the building. Typical protestant trick, post and run…

 

[anon49823460]

Church Militant:

You DO mean James 2 right?

Most just read around it or don’t get into it. The others that I have seen will try to tell you that James and Paul were speaking fo different kinds of faith, something not supported by the Word of God but only by their own out-of-context twist of interpretation.

Here’s a good Bible study outline that shows most of their arguments and the Catholic refutation of them.

The CDs by John Martignoni are available at the cost of shipping and they are ALL very very good!
Pax tecum,

Thanks for the link! It is very helpful with someone that I’m dealing with. While we are at it, could someone provide me with the Catholic response to John 5:24

** 24"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. **

 

[anon49823460]

Nevermind, I should have just kept reading until the end of the chapter

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.