Works of the law- Jewish identity markers only?

[Justus_Et_Peccator]

Disclaimer: I am a Presbyterian (OPC)

In almost every protestant/Catholic debate, when a protestant brings up the fact that salvation and righteousness is not by the works of the law (sometimes Paul just use “law”), a Catholic will respond that Paul is referring to works of the Mosaic law, not works of charity. However, I have never seen this claim substantiated. How do you reconcile the Catholic belief that Paul believed in salvation by works when he told the Philipian jailer that all he had to do was to believe in Christ to be saved?

 

[Kei]

It is important to understand the Catholic position, and not argue against a strawman.

But, belief in Jesus is what saves us. Belief leads to change, to good works, to faith, to hope, to charity.

 

[Justus_Et_Peccator]

It is important to understand the Catholic position, and not argue against a strawman.

I sincerely apologize if I’m misrepresenting the Catholic position. This is my interpretation of the Catholic position, please correct me if I’m wrong:

God’s actual grace, ie prevenient grace, is currently being wrought upon every human being. People must cooperate with this prevenient grace in order to be incorporated into God’s family through baptism. After that, God infuses actual grace into the hearts of Chistians, which manifests itself as habitual grace, and they gradually cooperate with these graces in order to justify themselves before God.

 

[Cathoholic]

God’s actual grace, ie prevenient grace, is currently being wrought upon every human being. People must cooperate with this prevenient grace in order to be incorporated into God’s family through baptism. After that, God infuses actual grace into the hearts of Chistians (sic), which manifests itself as habitual grace, and they gradually cooperate with these graces in order to justify themselves before God.

This is an excellent summation Justus_Et_Peccator.

I can’t speak for Kei, but I think Kei didn’t mean YOU. (At least from what you posted in post 1)

I think Kei meant every time we as Catholics have a justification discussion with Bible-only Christians . . . . . it seems the Bible-Only Christians keep lumping ALL WORKS together under “works of law”.

Then the Bible-ONLY Christians often jump to how we as Catholics allegedly “save ourselves through works” because we affirm the necessity of works AFTER we have life IN Christ, after we possess the Holy Spirit, after we have been poured into a state of grace through our Baptismal GIFTS that we cannot earn.

And this “Catholics save themselves via works” motif is phony.

It is as Kei said (if I read Kei correctly) . . . . a straw man.

I’ll try to address your specific question in a bit.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Kei]

God’s Grace (I will refrain from using the term prevenient as that has associations with reformation terminology), i.e., that which moves man from evil to good, is upon all people. God is the source of all Good.
People choose to act with this Goodness. God is the source of all virtue. We take up of right reason and virtue by God. Baptism gives life to us, born in the death of original sin, and joins us to the Body of Christ, that is, the Church. The Sacraments are vehicles of Grace mercifully allowed us by God.
In taking up these graces, via the Sacraments, prayer, holy contemplation, essentially allowing God to work in you, presents change in your person from sin to righteousness. God’s Mercy flows forth from His Justice. Justification and sanctification are the same thing.
I don’t like the phrase “justify themselves”. We have nothing to boast of, and humility, that is, understanding all you have comes from God, is the first virtue in need of cultivation, else the others shall not be. It is accepting God’s Work in us.

 

[Cathoholic]

Excellent post Kei.

And I agree that the term “prevenient as that has associations with reformation terminology”.

But the Council of Trent uses it too.

Sooner or later in a justification dialogue that concept does come up (as it ALREADY has here).

Since the Church uses it, I don’t shy away from that term (but I can understand why someone else might avoid it. No criticism from me on that.)

COUNCIL OF TRENT SESSION XI
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CHAPTER V.
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On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds.
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The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.

http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm

(The term is used at least one other place too)

 

[Cathoholic]

Justus_Et_Peccator:

How do you reconcile the Catholic belief that Paul believed in salvation by works when he told the Philipian jailer that all he had to do was to believe in Christ to be saved?

I missed this straw-man by Justus_Et_Peccator. (Sorry Kei).

First of all Justus_Et_Peccator, it is a straw-man that WE Catholics think in all senses that Saint “Paul believed in salvation by works” OK?

That being said, AFTER we receive the Holy Spirit, after we are Baptized, after we are born again, after we have a saving grace RELATIONSHIP with Christ, THEN . . . . . .
. . . we MUST WORK according to our state in life.

Just like we must CONTINUE in FAITH too.

Just like we must persevere in HOPE also.

So in a sense, we are not SAVED by “works”.

But once we are saved, we MUST WORK (again according to our state in life. For example you and I are called to much more than say a mentally handicapped person is).

 

[Cathoholic]

Justus_Et_Peccator (emphasis mine):

How do you reconcile the Catholic belief that Paul believed in salvation by works when he told the Philipian (sic) jailer that all he had to do was to believe in Christ to be saved?

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Hold it Justus_Et_Peccator!

WHERE do you get the idea that “ALL” the Philippian jailer has to do was “believe”??

The verse doesn’t SAY that.

You ADDED “all” to the text.

And I think you HAVE TO “add” to the Bible to come up with “justification by faith ALONE”.

Why?

Because it is taught NOWHERE in Scripture that’s why.

Let’s look at the Philippian jailer episode for a moment.

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ACTS 16:30-31 30 and brought them out and said, “Men, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

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Notice what they DON’T say . . . .

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NOT ACTS 16:30-31 (but a phantom verse) 30 and brought them out and said, “Men, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “ONLY Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

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The Scriptures ALSO don’t say . . .

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NOT ACTS 16:30-31 30 and brought them out and said, “Men, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household. So now since YOU believe . . . . your household doesn’t need to bother believing . . . . Why? Because after all. If YOU BELIEVE, . . . . you AND your household will be saved. So your household doesn’t need to bother with such belief details.

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This is the kind of non-sense you get when you come up with a tradition of men that nullifies the commandments of God (such as sola fide), cling to it, and then throw that tradition back into Scripture and attempt to force Scripture to say such things.

It doesn’t work Justus_Et_Peccator.

 

[Justus_Et_Peccator]

WHERE do you get the idea that “ALL” the Philippian jailer has to do was “believe”??

The Philippian jailer asked Paul what he needed to do in order to be saved, and Paul told him that he needed to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If he wasn’t telling him that faith alone justifies, what was he saying? What would have the jailer understood "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, you and your household, to be?

NOT ACTS 16:30-31 30 and brought them out and said, “Men, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household. So now since YOU believe . . . . your household doesn’t need to bother believing . . . . Why? Because after all. If YOU BELIEVE, . . . . you AND your household will be saved. So your household doesn’t need to bother with such belief details.

what?

 

[Justus_Et_Peccator]

First of all Justus_Et_Peccator, it is a straw-man that WE Catholics think in all senses that Saint “Paul believed in salvation by works” OK?

that’s exactly how the council of Trent interprets Paul. Canon 12 says,

“If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy,[117] which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.”

Canon 32 says,

“If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.”

Canon 24 says,

“If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works,[125] but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.”

It’s clear that Trent believes that Paul teaches justification by faith and works.

But once we are saved, we MUST WORK (again according to our state in life. For example you and I are called to much more than say a mentally handicapped person is).

is our salvation contingent on our obedience to the law?

Because it is taught NOWHERE in Scripture that’s why.

actually it is. Romans 3:28- For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

 

[edtaylor51]

I always assumed Paul meant Mosaic law since in the early Church there was a bit of a debate between Paul, who was a Hellenistic Jew and not as attached to the cultural aspects of Second Temple Judaism, and James, who thought Christianity should continue the traditions.

 

[Cathoholic]

1/2

I’ll deal with the cherry-picking of the documents of Trent later. For now . . .

ACTS 16:30-31 30 and brought them out and said, “Men, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

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Justus_Et_Peccator thinks this Acts 16:30-31 = sola fide (It doesn’t)

Cathoholic:
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Hold it Justus_Et_Peccator!
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WHERE do you get the idea that “ALL” the Philippian jailer has to do was “believe”??

Justus_Et_Peccator (in response, emphasis mine):

The Philippian jailer asked Paul what he needed to do in order to be saved, and Paul told him that he needed to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If he wasn’t telling him that faith alone justifies, what was he saying?

My reply at this time:

St. Paul (along with Silas) was saying just what he said. He told the Philippian Jailer that his faith saves him. Catholics affirm Justification by faith incidentally.

But you can’t get faith ALONE from Acts 16:30-16:31.

Not without ADDING to the text anyway.

Doesn’t the guy need “repentance”? What about “repentance” Justus_Et_Peccator?

As soon as you affirm the need for “repentance”, you are out of the realm of faith ALONE and into FAITH PLUS Repentance.

What about HOPE? The guy even exhibits HOPE here doesn’t he?

He wants to be saved!

Basically it is an “I hope to get saved and get to Heaven” type of illustration. But the jailer exhibits HOPE.

Also are you saying “HOPE” isn’t necessary?

St. Paul says it is.

ROMANS 8:24a 24 For in this hope we were saved.

As soon as you affirm the jailer must abide in HOPE, you are out of the realm of justification by faith ALONE (and into at least faith PLUS hope which CONTRADICTS justification by faith ALONE).

What about the guy’s family? St. Paul tells him if he believes . . . . not only him . . . . but his whole family will be saved!

Do you think this means the kids are saved without “faith” of their own?

"Dad’s got faith, so I don’t have to!" (Cuz I’m part of Dad’s “Household” and if Dad has faith, his whole “Household” is saved."

After all, “Paul” said if Dad believes, the whole family is saved!

ACTS 16:30-31 30 and brought them out and said, “Men, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you AND your household.”

So now do you think the “Household” gets saved without ANYTHING?
After all, they get Dad’s faith. And the verse says explicitly that if Dad’s got faith . . . . I am saved!

Do you think THIS is OK?

No. Of course not. (Why throw the word “alone” into the text when it’s NOT there??)

It assumes MORE here doesn’t it?
It assumes the kids are going to get their own faith.

So if there are obvious details left out in part of the justification formula here . . . is it just possible MORE DETAILS concerning the template regarding justification were left out of the passage ALSO?

 

[Cathoholic]

2/2

ACTS 16:30-31 30 and brought them out and said, “Men, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

If St. Paul didn’t tell all the “details” about the jailer’s kids when he said his family would be saved, do you think it’s just possible there were OTHER details about the Jailer’s salvation that “Paul” didn’t include TOO?

I mean really.

NONE of this says justification by faith ALONE in the Bible, yet you are now ready to gamble your very soul on a “Biblical doctrine” that isn’t ANYWHERE in the Bible!?

Is THAT what you are going to do?

Acts 16 NOWHERE teaches justification by faith ALONE.

Acts 16 teaches Justification by faith and the Catholic likewise affirms Justification by faith.

But Acts 16 never teaches justification by faith ALONE.

Even “faith” itself takes “WORKS” to receive faith Justus_Et_Peccator.

WHERE do you get the idea that “ALL” the Philippian jailer has to do was “believe”??

That alone torpedoes any idea of Justification by faith ALONE tradition.

As I said, I’d deal with Trent later.

But I do want to deal with one other issue from one of your Trent quotes now.

This one.

Canon 12 says,
“If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy,[117] which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.”

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This anathema is condemning “fideism”.

Fideism is where your faith isn’t in Christ.

Rather your faith is in your faith.

That’s an error, and it’s an error admitted by Presbyterians (as being erroneous) so I am surprised you are trying to make hay out of it.

Various WORKINGS are necessary for faith, so without other people’s workings, you can’t even have faith!

St. Paul just matter of factly talks about that too.

Does Acts 16 = Faith ALONE? No!

 

[Benadam]

How do you reconcile the Catholic belief that Paul believed in salvation by works when he told the Philipian jailer that all he had to do was to believe in Christ to be saved?

Emphasis mine.

Belief is a work. Even when it’s easy. There are people who want to believe but have a mind formed in a way that makes it a difficult work to do.

Edit to add. @catholic already mentioned that faith is a work. I only add to that truth.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Since Protestants believe Faith Alone secures their salvation, I find it puzzling that the matter of good works continues to trouble them. If Faith Alone saves, then both Catholics and Protestants are assured salvation simply by believing. So, why such a need to repeatedly revisit the issue if one is confident in their claim?

 

[Cathoholic]

TheOldColonel:

So, why such a need to repeatedly revisit the issue if one is confident in their claim?

Thanks for this comment and thanks for your service TheOldColonel.

When I was a kid at Baptist Sunday School and other Baptist ministies, we CONSTANTLY were re-affirming ourselves in this area.

Just my opinion but when the Bible never teaches your whole “hinge” doctrine to justify the “Reformation” split, it’s going to take a LOT of repetitive rationalization on this most foundational subject.

Again, just my 2 cents.

 

[TheOldColonel]

I agree with you. That must be why it remains a point for debate. I cannot say, as a Catholic, that I think about it very much. I trust God’s goodness, try to do some good works, try to avoid bring bad and hope to get to heaven one day. I just trust God to manage the “how” of how we’re saved.

 

[Cathoholic]

Justus_Et_Peccator. I am not sure why you post . . . .

“How do you reconcile the Catholic belief that Paul believed in salvation by works when he told the Philipian (sic) jailer that all he had to do was to believe in Christ to be saved?”

. . . . and when the discussion gets going you quit?

That seems inappropriate to me.

If you are reading, please let’s HAVE the discussion on the justification issue.

You cherry-picked Trent quoting . . . .

Canon 32 says,
“If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.”

So there is “Merit”.

But IGNORING a portion of Trent that I had ALREADY quoted!

TRENT Session 6, Chapter 5 . The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace . . . .

So there is NO MERIT here (“without ANY merits” . . . ).

To readers of this thread.

I will have to provide the arguments for Justus_Et_Peccator because he (I’ll just assume “he” for simplicity for now) didn’t show up to follow up on his own criticism of the faith.

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Objection: How can you Catholics have it BOTH ways?

You have merit.
Then elsewhere in Trent you say you have NO merit!

What’s up with that?

ANSWER: What is up with that, is there are different SENSES of merit.

In one sense ONLY Jesus can Merit. That is called “Strict Merit”.

But once we HAVE Jesus, THEN we CAN MERIT in some sense.

I call this NON-Strict merit. The theological pros differentiate it down into “condign” and “congruent” merits. For my purposes here, I will just stick with NON-Strict Merit.

The reason Justus_Et_Peccator cannot see the distinction is because he has been taught that Justification is a moment ALONE.

We as Catholics on the other hand, assert Justification to be a MOMENT (Baptism) followed by a PROCESS. A lifelong process.

The faith that we are graced with BEFORE that moment is God’s prevenient grace.

God’s prevenient grace, just means God makes the FIRST MOVE towards us (not we towards Him).

God MUST make the first move. (There are other ways God makes the first move too such as in our “repentance”. That is beyond the scope of this discussion though).

ALL men are the recipients of such grace. “When I am lifted up, I will draw ALL MEN to Myself”—Jesus the Christ in John 12:32.

 

[Cathoholic]

This is God’s prevenient grace. God making the first move to draw us to him.

This is NOT justifying grace in its fullness, but it is PART of our eventual justifying grace.

In this sense we come to the Baptismal font with NO efficacious WORKINGS of our own in the realm of salvation.

We have a faith, hope, and love that ALL men receive. These gifts will be “supernaturalized” to a higher degree in the Sacrament of Faith—Baptism.

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There are five “CAUSES” of our justification Trent talks of. Here I will discuss three.

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The “meritorious cause” is Jesus ALONE. Graces that flow from Him and His work on CALVARY (“the wood of the cross”).

TRENT The meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father

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The “instrumental cause” of our justification is our Baptism. Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. . . . . After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.—John 3:5, 22

Baptism is our MOMENT of justification. Baptism is when we become “Partakers of the Divine Nature”.

TRENT The instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified;

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Then AFTER we become “Divinized” or “partakers of the divine nature”, after we have the Trinitarian LIFE WITHIN us . . . . THEN we CAN MERIT, but only WITH Christ.

NEVER can we merit in the sense of justification on our OWN.

This is the part of our Justification that is the PROCESS. This is the part that NECESSARILY includes WORKS (at least “works” according to our state in life or “proper disposition”).

TRENT lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation.

This is what the Book of Revelation is talking about when it says “he that is justified, let him be justified FURTHER still”.–Revelation 22:11

This is the “PROCESS” that follows the “MOMENT” of our justification.

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TRENT Justification . . . . is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting. . . . .

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Justus_Et_Peccator cherry-picked Trent.

Wittingly or unwittingly?

Who knows? I’ll hope for unwittingly.

 

[Cathoholic]

Justus_Et_Peccator lumps ALL WORKS in the same “WORTHLESS” category (worthless in the sense of justification at least).

This is bogus.

When you have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you . . . you CAN WORK and it CAN count towards eternal life.

Justus_Et_Peccator doesn’t believe this.

I do. Don’t be deceived by the traditions of men that Justus_Et_Peccator has imbibed.

Listen to St. Paul . . . .

GALATIANS 6:7-8 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked,
for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption;
but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

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Notice you CAN sow (work) and then “reap” unto ETERNAL LIFE!

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How? By sowing to the Spirit that’s how.

Not on your own, but in the Spirit of Christ that you received as a grace and a gift in Baptism.

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Justus_Et_Peccator will ALSO DENY we are “Divinized” in a sense (the Trinitarian Life WITHIN us. Not MERELY covering us. Covering us to be sure, but not MERELY covering us.).

But Justus_Et_Peccator’s problem isn’t with me.

Justus_Et_Peccator’s problem is with the Bible.

2nd PETER 1:3-5 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

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Justus_Et_Peccator’s problem is he has followed after a tradition of men that makes void the commandments of God–Justification by faith ALONE.