Works or Faith

[cslink]

First, let me say that this letter is out of love for our Lord Jesus Christ and all praise is to him in everything we do.
It is clear in the Bible that we are saved though Jesus Christ by our faith in him. On one hand, people quote Romans to say that only faith and not works, and the other side quotes James as to the response. I will not quote these books as if you have not read them start there.
Let me explain it like this; imagine a horse and a cart needing to go somewhere. The cart will represent our faith the horse works and where we need to go is salvation. We do not need the horse (works) to have the cart (faith), but for the cart (faith) to move we need the horse (works) to make it to our destination (salvation).
We do not need works to have faith we need works to continue our faith.
What about the unchristian man that is dying and the Holy Spirit worked in him at the last minute and gave him faith and he truly believed in Christ before he dies does he have salvation? I think the answer is a giant YES. The Bible does not give a list of what works are require to have true faith, and since we will never know, the best we can do is live the best life for God. If we are to believe that the man dying is not saved, then tell me how much time doing works is required for salvation. Is there a time limit in the Bible that says well you have reached 40 and you will not have enough time to work for your salvation so don’t try. Works are not required to obtain salvation, but are require if we want to continue to have true Christian faith. It is obvious that we as Christian will what to live as close to God as we can, but as sinners, we will never obtain that goal. At the same time, we cannot just say well I have faith and I am a sinner so why try to live a God fearing life. This is the point that the Book of James verse 2:14-26 is trying to convey. If you have faith without works, you do not have true faith!
In Christ

 

[exoflare]

The “works or faith” argument is a very common, but very pointless argument… Neither works or faith ALONE saves anybody. The Bible does not claim in any place that faith alone is the source of salvation, and neither do Catholics believe in the first place that works are the source of salvation.

 

[water]

I often heard people saying “faith alone”…but then they always do works. So, what “faith alone” means without works? and who believes “faith alone”?

 

[christcnection1]

First, let me say that this letter is out of love for our Lord Jesus Christ and all praise is to him in everything we do.
It is clear in the Bible that we are saved though Jesus Christ by our faith in him. On one hand, people quote Romans to say that only faith and not works, and the other side quotes James as to the response. I will not quote these books as if you have not read them start there.
Let me explain it like this; imagine a horse and a cart needing to go somewhere. The cart will represent our faith the horse works and where we need to go is salvation. We do not need the horse (works) to have the cart (faith), but for the cart (faith) to move we need the horse (works) to make it to our destination (salvation).
We do not need works to have faith we need works to continue our faith.
What about the unchristian man that is dying and the Holy Spirit worked in him at the last minute and gave him faith and he truly believed in Christ before he dies does he have salvation? I think the answer is a giant YES. The Bible does not give a list of what works are require to have true faith, and since we will never know, the best we can do is live the best life for God. If we are to believe that the man dying is not saved, then tell me how much time doing works is required for salvation. Is there a time limit in the Bible that says well you have reached 40 and you will not have enough time to work for your salvation so don’t try. Works are not required to obtain salvation, but are require if we want to continue to have true Christian faith. It is obvious that we as Christian will what to live as close to God as we can, but as sinners, we will never obtain that goal. At the same time, we cannot just say well I have faith and I am a sinner so why try to live a God fearing life. This is the point that the Book of James verse 2:14-26 is trying to convey. If you have faith without works, you do not have true faith!
In Christ

Do you belong to a particular denomination or group of Christians? This may help us identify how you view issues of Justifcation.

 

[The_Truthinator]

I think it’s all too clear faith without works cannot save (James 2:14), but also that we are not made right by our works (Rom. 4:5), but by the faith that produces these works (Rom. 1:17).

So, in short, as is reiterated in Romans again and again, faith alone saves, yet without good deeds, is dead and useless and incapable of saving. In fact, it seems to me a notable point James tries to make (by implication) that faith without works ISN’T faith at all … although we’d like to think it is.

Let’s not forget: “It is only by grace that you’ve been saved!”

God’s grace should never be perverted so much that we begin to think that somehow we’re ever going to be good enough … We won’t be … EVER … but all the more glory to God for his mercy because of this, I say! Were it not for the truth in this point, why would the Catholic Church be so unwilling to relinquish the doctrine of Purgatory? Because we *won’t *be good enough … God, in his grace, just makes up the difference …

 

[NotWorthy]

God’s grace should never be perverted so much that we begin to think that somehow we’re ever going to be good enough … We won’t be … EVER … but all the more glory to God for his mercy because of this, I say! Were it not for the truth in this point, why would the Catholic Church be so unwilling to relinquish the doctrine of Purgatory?

It’s simple. She would never relinquish the Truth!!! What makes you think this is a false doctrine?!?

Because we *won’t *be good enough … God, in his grace, just makes up the difference …

Jesus says “Be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect” (paraphrasing). Revelation says “nothing unclean will enter heaven” (again, paraphrasing).
We see from Jesus that we can be perfect. We know from Scripture that while we are in this world, we will never be perfect. We see from Revelation that only something perfect can enter heaven.

Hence, there is a place where we are made perfect that is not of this world and is not of heaven.

Purgatory.

 

[cslink]

Do you belong to a particular denomination or group of Christians? This may help us identify how you view issues of Justifcation.

I have been to many different churchs as my Military service has taken me to many places and have seen many different faiths, but I was raised in the WELS Lutheran Church and still a member of that body.

 

[onenow1]

HI,

1Cor. 13: 13 As it is, these remain: Faith, Hope and Love, the three of them; and greatest of them is Love.

We do works of love because of our faith, and the realization Jesus died for our salvation, faith alone just don’t cut it.

2Cor. 5: 10, For at the judgement seat of Christ we are all to be seen for what we are, so that each of us may receive what he has deserved in the body, matched by whatever he has done, good or bad.

Peace, Onenow1

 

[okieflyer]

I agree with Exoflare on pointless debate.

My belief is by grace we are saved through faith we recieve and no works you have none of the above. They all go hand in hand.

We can not work our way to heaven. If so Jesus dying on the cross is the biggest tragedy of all time.

If you have faith and no works you obviously do not have faith in the Triune God but someother religion or theology.

It is the same as having a wheel we need to roll down the hill and debating what point of its circumference is the bottom of the wheel so we can set it down and start???

 

[okieflyer]

What about the unchristian man that is dying and the Holy Spirit worked in him at the last minute and gave him faith and he truly believed in Christ before he dies does he have salvation? I think the answer is a giant YES.

On the man recieving Christ on his death bed I agree.

Are works limited to physical activity… feeding the hungry? Clothing the poor?

Can works at the last minute also be inward work of say… forgivenes towards someone?
Or the final act of laying it all at the Lord’s feet just prior to death?
These too can be seen though inward. Simple things as these have the abillity to impact the non-Christian on looker at a far greater level than a coat or a ham sandwich to the poor. (By no means do I down play works with this though) Or his salvation could be an encouragement to one who is allready Christian. Is this works?

Just some questions

To OP I too was raised in WELS

 

[exoflare]

It is the same as having a wheel we need to roll down the hill and debating what point of its circumference is the bottom of the wheel so we can set it down and start???

LOL that’s actually a pretty good analogy…