"Works" Salvation?

[OneForTruth]

As Catholics, we believe the elect of God will be saved. In other words, those ordained to eternal life will reach that goal. Where we differ from Calvinism is that we do not limit God’s justifyingg grace to those predestined to glory.

I find this interesting - God predestines some to salvation and the rest may or may not achieve salvation…So, there are three groups then…

1. The elect
2. The non-elect who “make it”
3. The non-elect who go to hell

This cannot be true from scripture. There are only two groups…the elect and the non-elect…those who receive mercy and those who are hardened (or passed over). The Church is looked upon as the elect…

1 Peter 5:13 KJV 13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

In fact, Church means the following…

from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):–assembly, church.

It basically means “called out ones”. There are not two classes of Christians - those who are elect and those who are saved non-elect. The same objection that I frequently hear from people could then be given in this case…why does not God choose everyone then??

The Church is the elect and the elect only…the rest are the tares (Matthew 13:24-30 - good seed/tares parable).

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ephesians 1:4 KJV 4 According as **he hath chosen us **in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Romans 1:7 KJV 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your objections to predestination were seen beforehand by the Holy Spirit who interjected these comments in Romans 9…

Romans 9:14 KJV 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

And again…

Romans 9:19-20 KJV 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

I saw another comment that all are presdestined - from Church Militant, I believe…if that is the case, all will be saved…

Romans 8:30 KJV 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There are different wills of God in scripture…there is his abosolute sovereign decree (prophecies, predestination) and then there is the will of God from the standpoint of a desire…Have you have said, I would like this, BUT…

What is the purpose of passing over some? In Romans 9, Pharaoh is passed over and hardened (by a lack of gracious influence - allowed to go his own way) that God’s power might be known…there was a reason for it. And there is a reason why God has not chosen everyone.

Romans 9:17 KJV 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

The Bible, again, shows God’s sovereign and efficacious will, his preceptive will (referring to his commands and laws which can be obeyed or disobeyed), and God’s disposition, for instance, of not taking delight in the death of the wicked - wishing that all would be saved. As you know, however, if God wills something from His sovereign throne, it WILL happen.

The elect are called to make certain of their calling and election in 2 Peter 2:10…we are to examine ourselves. We are to work out our sanctification with fear and trembling…

(cont’d)

 

[OneForTruth]

(cont’d)

BUT - election shows that “Once Saved, Always Saved”…We HAVE BECOME partakers of Christ if we hold our confidence steadfast to the end…Perseverance is shown here as an evidence and not a condition - we must persevere and we will…those who do not hold fast are shown to have believed in vain…

1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

More Scriptures on election…

Acts 13:48 NAS95 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

John 13:17-19 NAS95 17 "If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them. 18 "I** do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME**.’ 19 "From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.

Judas was not chosen - Peter and the rest were…

John 15:16 NAS95 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; **and the Lord opened her heart to respond **to the things spoken by Paul.

Acts 18:27 NAS95 27 And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace,

Yes - we do not know who - but, once the elect come to faith - they are saved and will be saved…

Mark 13:22 NAS95 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

They cannot fall away.

 

[Milliardo]

OneForTruth, if predestination according to Calvin is true (I assume you are thinking of predestination according to Calvin if I am correct), then how would that fit in to Jesus’ redemptive work? If predestination is correct, in other words, then God would’ve pre-judged everyone. Wouldn’t that make the Cross then unnecessary, as what is the need for the Cross if God has already destined everyone’s fate? We might as well just sit back and do nothing (which is the whole point of Calvin’s premise).

election shows that “Once Saved, Always Saved”…We HAVE BECOME partakers of Christ if we hold our confidence steadfast to the end…Perseverance is shown here as an evidence and not a condition - we must persevere and we will…those who do not hold fast are shown to have believed in vain…

Then that is not OSAS, but it should be then once saved, kinds been saved. That totally contradicts OSAS, and would lead more to Catholic notions of salvation, which has always been contrary to OSAS.

Judas was not chosen - Peter and the rest were…

I beg to disagree–Judas was chosen, or else he could not have been one of the 12. Judas’ problem was that he never learned to ask Christ for forgiveness. Had he done so, would Christ turn him away? Jesus knowing him to be the traitor does not necessarily mean that Judas had no choice in asking for forgiveness even after he did the deed; that is nowhere implied in the Gospels. You can read up on it, and I guarantee that you will not find one thing that assumes that Judas had no choice in asking forgiveness. In fact, he had remorse afterwards, but never took the time to go and ask forgiveness. That was his downfall.

Mark 13:22 NAS95 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

They cannot fall away.

I explained this in another thread–the passage does not show that the elect cannot fall away; indeed, it shows otherwise. It shows us that the false prophets will come to take even the elect away–the Great Apostasy, if you will. So far from saying that they cannot fall away, they will fall away and be led astray.

 

[OneForTruth]

OneForTruth, if predestination according to Calvin is true (I assume you are thinking of predestination according to Calvin if I am correct), then how would that fit in to Jesus’ redemptive work? If predestination is correct, in other words, then God would’ve pre-judged everyone. Wouldn’t that make the Cross then unnecessary, as what is the need for the Cross if God has already destined everyone’s fate? We might as well just sit back and do nothing (which is the whole point of Calvin’s premise).

As Christ says - he came to lay down His life for his sheep…

John 10:11 NAS95 11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
John 10:15 NAS95 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I** lay down My life for the sheep**.

John 10:27-28 NAS95 27 "**My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

The elect are not those that were perfect from the beginning…all of the elect were sinners saved by the grace of God. The gospel rings out that the elect might be gathered together in one to be the Church - the called out ones. We are bought with a price and we therefore must glorify God in our bodies - be holy and live for Him - giving our bodies as a living sacrifice - holy, acceptable to God - which is our reasonable service.

Then that is not OSAS, but it should be then once saved, kinds been saved. That totally contradicts OSAS, and would lead more to Catholic notions of salvation, which has always been contrary to OSAS.

I guess I do not see your logic - if the elect are chosen to salvation - then once they repeent and believe the gospel, once they are born again, once they have been called and justified, then they will be saved as Romans 8:30 clearly shows…

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This is called the Golden Chain of Salvation!!

I beg to disagree–Judas was chosen, or else he could not have been one of the 12. Judas’ problem was that he never learned to ask Christ for forgiveness. Had he done so, would Christ turn him away? Jesus knowing him to be the traitor does not necessarily mean that Judas had no choice in asking for forgiveness even after he did the deed; that is nowhere implied in the Gospels. You can read up on it, and I guarantee that you will not find one thing that assumes that Judas had no choice in asking forgiveness. In fact, he had remorse afterwards, but never took the time to go and ask forgiveness. That was his downfall.

You are ignoring scripture…Judas was chosen as one of the 12 but not chosen from an election standpoint…read all of this context…

John 13:8-19 KJV 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

This is a reference to Judas…He is not clean - or perfected by the sacrifice of Christ - by the faith of Abraham - he is not justified - not chosen…see the scripture - Its says that he is not chosen…

12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. 17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. 18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. 19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

He was not one of the chosen…for he was the one who would betray Christ and no choen elect would do this.

(cont’d)

 

[OneForTruth]

(cont’d)

I explained this in another thread–the passage does not show that the elect cannot fall away; indeed, it shows otherwise. It shows us that the false prophets will come to take even the elect away–the Great Apostasy, if you will. So far from saying that they cannot fall away, they will fall away and be led astray.

I am not sure how you can possibly come to this conclusion…it says - IF POSSIBLE. The scripture says that the false teachers motives were to lead the elect astray - IF POSSIBLE…they cannot fall away. There is no other way to possibly read this but to wish for it to read differently.

 

[distracted]

You cannot lose salvation once attained…those that seemingly fall away were never saved to begin with…
2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Co 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Perseverance is guaranteed for those that are of the elect…
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Hebrews 3:14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Those that have been made partakers with Christ will evidence this in holding fast - as you can see from 1 Corinthians 15:2 above - those that fall away “believed in vain”. It was not that faith granted by God…they are tares that were caught in the dragnet…
Matthew 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Falling away is not characteristic of one who is of the elect…
Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame…
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
Hope this helps…the elect will be saved.
May God Help Us All…

That last scripture reading is not an easy one to interpret. I have studied scripture, theology (Catholic and non-C) and history… and i do not understand it.Incidentally, i have never heard a Protestant pastor admit he didn’t understand some scripture… But in any case… I don’t think you can say you totally understand all the scripture passages you listed…
That’s one reason i am Catholic - i want an infallible Church to enlighten me as to what Scripture means exactly…
And for every scripture Protestants give 2 support their views, there are several others that tend to contradict them…
For instance, as far as losing salvation - there is Matthew 18:23 (the parable about the man who was forgiven a huge debt by the king, didn’t have to pay back a dime, but then the man refused to 4-give a fellow servant and therefore, the debt was again incurred/enforced. Then there is Philippians 2:12: “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (salvation is an ongoing struggle, not a one-time event…). Then there is Matthew 25:31 that says if we don’t do cerain things, we won’t make it… In other words, it says nothing about retaining or losing salvation, but predicates our salvation on our love/work for others… If we stop being charitable, we could lose our salvation… James 2:12: “Faith without works is dead”. Like a dead horse… waht is it good for?
There are others…
I think Matthew 18:23 is one of the better ones to support the Catholic view on this…
The catholics believe in being purified, not just “forgiven”. Mabye that is where @ least 1 problem lies… Purification is a life-long process… but if one doesnt begin the purification process, he/she will become more and more impure until one day - it could happen - he just doesn’t see the need 4 it anymore…starts 2 figure he/she is “saved” anyway… drifts away from Jesus, into materialism, unhealthy relationships… (starts idolizing those things…) and then, well, you can see how a person can lose his/her salvation…
I do believe that once you have been filled with the Holy Spirit, it is difficult to totally lose Jesus… but not impossible…
In the world we live in, Jesus can seem “irrelevent”… He certainly is irrelevent in the world of television and movies…

 

[guanophore]

(Calvanists and believers of predestination)
Im not either one of those and I believe this as well simply because it is in the bible.

Well, of course we “believe” all that is in the scriptures. The question is, in what manner do these verses apply to us? All scripture must be interpreted in context, and will never be inconsistent with itself. You can come up with all kinds of crazy beliefs otherwise. For example:

“…serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” “…(Judas) departed; and he went and hanged himself”
And Jesus said … “Go and do likewise.”

(Jude 7,Matt 27:5, Luke 10:37)

Now, then, will you follow the instructions of Jesus, and the example of those who came before you? If not, why not?

 

[guanophore]

:extrahappy:

Hi,

Remember there is such a thing as playing church. There are probably more people in the CC and protestant churches that dont truly believe but think they are doing the right thing and are just going through the motions. I believe this is what this verse is talking about. I use to be one of those people. I believe for people like this it all boils down to they dont truly understand what sin really is and the importance of Christ dying on the cross for us. Yeah they learned all the bible stories but they dont learn any deeper then that. It is all very superficial faith and worship.

I am glad you got over it!:extrahappy:

 

[OneForTruth]

For instance, as far as losing salvation. There is Matthew 18:23 (the parable about the man who was forgiven a huge debt by the king, didn’t have to pay back a dime, then the man refused to forgive his fellow servant and therefore, the debt was again incurred. He was “turned over to the torturers…”. Then there is Philippians 2:12 “work our your salvation with fear and trembling”. Then there is Matthew 25:31 that says if we don’t do cerain things, we won’t make it… In othe words, it says nothing about retaining or losing salvation, but predicates our salvation on our love/work for others… Then there is James 2:12 “Faith without works is dead”. Just like a dead horse… waht is he good for?
There are others but i am running out of time…

I could make Matthew 18:34-35 equally difficult for you…if he was indeed forgiven and then saddled with the same debt until all that was due uno the king was paid, this would mean that this man would never pay it off. If we took every detail of this parable and made it apply to salvation/the Christian life, we would conclude the following…

He was forgievn a debt that could not be paid…then he was unforgiving one time…then was saddled with that same debt until all that was due to the king was paid…this would mean that once we were unforgiving to one person, we would love our salvation forever. The proper way to look at this is the following…

When a person truly receives the forgiveness of God and understands the manifold grace of God which is absolutely unfathomable, he cannot help but be forgiving to others once that is truly understood. If the person is unforgiving and continually this was, this may be an indication that he never received forgiveness at all because, obviously, that person does not understand the forgiveness of God. There is a problem with the way that you are interpreting this and I hope you can see that. I do not disagree with anyone, however that this is a difficult passage.

Matthew 25:31 - as we know - true faith - which is a gift from God and not our own works through love…those who have been born of God are characterized by being loving. This is an evidence of salvation.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

A loving disposition is characteristic of one that has been born of God…again, once a person is changed/ born again by the grace of God, they are a new creature…

1 Corinthians 5:13 KJV 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 KJV 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The works that we do are by the grace of God and were prepared for us…

Ephesians 2:10 KJV 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 14:12 KJV 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

You cannot separate true saving faith that is given by God (not devlish vain faith) from the works that they accomplish.

Matthew 12:33 KJV 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

The tree (person) is made good at salvation and, therefore, the fruit is good. And, yes, faith without works is dead.

Philippians 2:12:

The Greek verb rendered “work out” means “to continually work to bring something to fulfillment or completion.” It cannot refer to salvation by works (Rom. 3:21–24; Eph. 2:8, 9), but it does refer to the believer’s responsibility for active pursuit of obedience in the process of sanctification (Rom. 6:19; cf. 1 Cor. 9:24–27; 15:58; 2 Cor. 7:1; Gal. 6:7–9; Eph. 4:1; Col. 3:1–17; Heb. 6:10, 11; 12:1, 2; 2 Pet. 1:5–11). Fear and trembling is the attitude with which Christians are to pursue their sanctification. It involves a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him (Prov. 1:7; 9:10; Is. 66:1, 2).

May God Show Us Truth…

 

[Milliardo]

As Christ says - he came to lay down His life for his sheep…

I’m sorry–where is the answer to my question again? I’ll ask it once more: if predestination is true, then where does Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross fit in then? Now, even if we take the verses into account:

John 10:11 NAS95 11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
John 10:15 NAS95 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I** lay down My life for the sheep**.

John 10:27-28 NAS95 27 "***My sheep ***hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

It does not answer the question, since His sheep are His followers. Nowhere is it implied there that the sheep are predestined ones.

The elect are not those that were perfect from the beginning…all of the elect were sinners saved by the grace of God.

Ah, so now you backtrack–now the elect aren’t those chosen from the beginning, but were sinners who have turned away from sin. It looks less and less like OSAS now, and much closer to Catholic teaching.

I guess I do not see your logic - if the elect are chosen to salvation - then once they repeent and believe the gospel, once they are born again, once they have been called and justified, then they will be saved as Romans 8:30 clearly shows…

Of course they will be saved; but does that show us that they will not be misled again? Nowhere is it implied there, and nowhere is OSAS present there.

You are ignoring scripture…Judas was chosen as one of the 12 but not chosen from an election standpoint…read all of this context…

Please show me again where is the basic notion that Judas cannot ask Jesus forgiveness. It is very easy to answer it. Do not give me this excuse–it does not work, and you and I know it.

This is a reference to Judas…He is not clean - or perfected by the sacrifice of Christ - by the faith of Abraham - he is not justified - not chosen…see the scripture - Its says that he is not chosen…

The passage in question refers to the fact that Judas’ intentions and motives have been tainted by his desire to betray Christ. Jesus has become aware of that. Nowhere is it implied that he is not chosen, or else Jesus would not see him fit to be one of the 12. Again, nothing there about OSAS, nor of Judas not being the elect. Clearly Judas fell off the boat on his own accord, and could have made it back if he had chosen to. That aside, please show us any passage that would imply that if Judas asked for forgiveness, Jesus would deny him of it.

18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. 19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Again, nowhere there about Judas not being one of the chosen; indeed, Jesus knows whom He has chosen, and that would then should include Judas, as he was one of the 12. Judas’ being there is significant, as he would play that part of betrayer to Christ. He was chosen for that. However, that still does not imply that Judas had no option of asking for forgiveness after he did the deed. Please show us any passage that will refute that.

am not sure how you can possibly come to this conclusion…it says - IF POSSIBLE. The scripture says that the false teachers motives were to lead the elect astray - IF POSSIBLE…they cannot fall away. There is no other way to possibly read this but to wish for it to read differently.

Wrong again. Jesus is clear on this: the false prophets that will come will mislead many, even those that were deemed as elect. Nowhere is the notion entertained there that they cannot fall away. The verses surrounding it makes it plain: Be watchful! He warns us. The warning serves a purpose: the false prophets will come to take even the sheep away. Christ’s warning to be watchful would be useless if there is no possibility at all that the elect would not be misled. That it is there, and that Jesus knows the possibility of it, made Him issue that warning. I’m sorry then–it seems like those who entertain OSAS are making a wishful thinking by ignoring the warnings of Jesus here.

 

[Robert902]

]I don’t know what you have been studying but the Bible is definitely not in favor of predestination - if by that term you mean that God predestines some to Hell and some to Heaven… That is Pure Rubbish!! For one thing, if that were the case, why would Jesus have to come and die on a cross like He did? He died for all people…
This pre-d thing doesn’t make a bit of sense…

Rubbish???

Romans 8:29 ‘For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.’

Romans 8:30 ‘Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called these He also justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified.’

Eph 1:4-5 ‘Just as He chose us before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.’

John 6:44 ‘No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.’

John 17:9 'I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom you have given Me, for they are yours.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 ‘Test all things, hold fast what is good’.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

We would be a bunch of robots if that were the case… Since i hvae come back to my Catholic faith, i see more than ever how many choices (options) i have in life… It actually scares me sometimes…
That is what life is all about - CHOICE…
And if you choose satan one day, you can always - always - choose Jesus the next…
People may not forgive totally but God forgives absolutely anything - through Jesus… and Jesus, in addition to forgiveness, HEALS us of the effects of our (and others’) sins…
Praise you, Sweet, Precious Jesus. :bowdown2:

 

[guanophore]

The elect are not those that were perfect from the beginning…all of the elect were sinners saved by the grace of God. The gospel rings out that the elect might be gathered together in one to be the Church - the called out ones. We are bought with a price and we therefore must glorify God in our bodies - be holy and live for Him - giving our bodies as a living sacrifice - holy, acceptable to God - which is our reasonable service.

Well, we are in agreement at least on these points. I think the difference is how people become “elect”. Catholicism teaches that God desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. Why would God desire something that He would not make possible? Therefore, it is possible for all to come to the knowledge of the truth (be saved). However, God respects the free will with which He created each of us. He will not violate our free will. If we do not choose to be saved, He will allow us to go to perdition.

I guess I do not see your logic - if the elect are chosen to salvation - then once they repeent and believe the gospel, once they are born again, once they have been called and justified, then they will be saved as Romans 8:30 clearly shows…

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This is called the Golden Chain of Salvation!!

Yes. But Catholicism teaches that a person can turn and refuse at any point. Are you saying that God violates the free will? Are you saying, like a poster did on another thread that one who commits oneself to Christ no longer has free will? I am not sure where you get your golden chain. I just was reading on another thread where someone said the Apostolic Succession was not biblical. There is sure more evidence of that than there is a “golden chain of salvation”. Are you saying a soul is “locked” or “chained” once chosen?

You are ignoring scripture…Judas was chosen as one of the 12 but not chosen from an election standpoint…read all of this context…

John 13:8-19 KJV 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

This is a reference to Judas…He is not clean - or perfected by the sacrifice of Christ - by the faith of Abraham - he is not justified - not chosen…see the scripture - Its says that he is not chosen…

Scripture nowhere says that Judas was not chosen. In fact, Scripture says the opposite! Scriputre says: " Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him. " John 6:69-71

Jesus DID CHOOSE Judas. Judas had the opportunity to become one of the elect, justified, glorified. He rejected it. How can you say that these words, out of the very mouth of our Lord and Saviour are false!? This doctrine of predestination makes Jesus into a liar!!!

18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

He was not one of the chosen…for he was the one who would betray Christ and no choen elect would do this.

Jesus chose Judas. Jesus spent three years with him, just like all the apostles, trying to show him the way. Judas ultimately rejected Jesus’ calling. Your assumption that a chosen person would not rebel against God is false.

 

[Robert902]

I don’t know what you have been studying but the Bible is definitely not in favor of predestination - if by that term you mean that God predestines some to Hell and some to Heaven… That is Pure Rubbish!! For one thing, if that were the case, why would Jesus have to come and die on a cross like He did? He died for all people…
This pre-d thing doesn’t make a bit of sense… We would be a bunch of robots if that were the case… Since i hvae come back to my Catholic faith, i see more than ever how many choices (options) i have in life… It actually scares me sometimes…
That is what life is all about - CHOICE…
And if you choose satan one day, you can always - always - choose Jesus the next…
People may not forgive totally but God forgives absolutely anything - through Jesus… and Jesus, in addition to forgiveness, HEALS us of the effects of our (and others’) sins…
Praise you, Sweet, Precious Jesus. :bowdown2:

Rubbish?

Eph 1:4-5 ‘Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.’

Romans 8:29 'For whom He foreknew, He also predestined…

Romans 8:30 'Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called…

John 6:44 ‘No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him: and I will raise him up at the last day.’

John 17:9 ‘I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom you have given Me, for they are yours.’

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[mikeledes]

As Christ says - he came to lay down His life for his sheep…

John 10:11 NAS95 11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
John 10:15 NAS95 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I** lay down My life for the sheep**.

John 10:27-28 NAS95 27 "***My sheep ***hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

The elect are not those that were perfect from the beginning…all of the elect were sinners saved by the grace of God. The gospel rings out that the elect might be gathered together in one to be the Church - the called out ones. We are bought with a price and we therefore must glorify God in our bodies - be holy and live for Him - giving our bodies as a living sacrifice - holy, acceptable to God - which is our reasonable service.

The notion of limited atonement blatantly contradicts Scripture:

1 John 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 4:10

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2 Peter 2:1

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

Moreover, not all of the justified (i.e. righteous) will persevere to the end.

Ezekiel 18:24, 26

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

John 15:2

2** Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit**

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Not all of the genuinely justified will persevere to the end, and not all of the justified are counted among the elect. As the Bible states, those who persevere to the end will be saved.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Let me add this verse to my above post:

2 Peter 3:17

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Hebrews 6:4-6

**4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance**

You cannot repent again if you did not repent in the first place. You cannot partake of the Holy Spirit if that repentance was not genuine.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mepatri]

How can this person look to RC Sproul for accurate teaching?

Is Sproul infallible?

Does Sproul represent some type of Protestant “magisterium”?

Aren’t Sproul’s opinions simply his own interpretations?

How can you look to Karl Keating, or John Martignoni, or Patrick Madrid, as do hundreds of thousands of Catholics do each day? None of these men are infallible - but they teach.

No one is saying that Sproul creates doctrine.

For those that rely on Sproul for guidance, do his writings constitute an “extra-biblical” source of authority?

His teachings are aurhority based on the Bible. Unlike the Catholic Church, which centers its authority on the Magisterium.

Is he not teaching mere “traditions of men” when he teaches his own opinions?

No - his teachings are based on the Bible - which he references time and again. That would be in contrast to your teachers - the Pope included, when they constantly reference their own declarations, or the Catechism.

In other words, how does reliance on Sproul square with the doctrine of sola scriptura?

He teaches from the Bible. It’s simple. Also, I do not “rely” on Sproul, as you would rely on the Pope, or Bishops, or priests for your salvation. I can learn a lot from Sproul and teachers like him, but ultimately I have to be responsible for my own salvation. I can look to no man to be a representitive of Christ for me, except Christ Himself.

As for trouble within the ranks of the Catholic priesthood, this is truly grievous. However, we should not be surprised. One of the twelve was a traitor…

Yes - Peter. How ironic that the RCC bases the whole of its faith on Peter - the very one who betrayed Christ. (Edited By Moderator)

 

[dessert]

OneForTruth, if predestination according to Calvin is true (I assume you are thinking of predestination according to Calvin if I am correct), then how would that fit in to Jesus’ redemptive work? If predestination is correct, in other words, then God would’ve pre-judged everyone. Wouldn’t that make the Cross then unnecessary, as what is the need for the Cross if God has already destined everyone’s fate? We might as well just sit back and do nothing (which is the whole point of Calvin’s premise).

Then that is not OSAS, but it should be then once saved, kinds been saved. That totally contradicts OSAS, and would lead more to Catholic notions of salvation, which has always been contrary to OSAS.

I beg to disagree–Judas was chosen, or else he could not have been one of the 12. Judas’ problem was that he never learned to ask Christ for forgiveness. Had he done so, would Christ turn him away? Jesus knowing him to be the traitor does not necessarily mean that Judas had no choice in asking for forgiveness even after he did the deed; that is nowhere implied in the Gospels. You can read up on it, and I guarantee that you will not find one thing that assumes that Judas had no choice in asking forgiveness. In fact, he had remorse afterwards, but never took the time to go and ask forgiveness. That was his downfall.

I explained this in another thread–the passage does not show that the elect cannot fall away; indeed, it shows otherwise. It shows us that the false prophets will come to take even the elect away–the Great Apostasy, if you will. So far from saying that they cannot fall away, they will fall away and be led astray.

I agree with you on these issues as I had been led astray myself but had fallen away on my on free will, not knowing if i am elect or not.

Jesus knew Judas better than Judas knew himself. But even then Jesus said he knew what Judas was aabout but he still did not condemn him at the spot He just spoke the truth and Jesus knew that it was still to be determined by Judas free will.

We can know that Judas hanged himself or died but what we can maybe speculate is that someone of the other disciples came along and found Judas or maybe other rebels were along or even got Judas to do all the work, a conspiracy.

Maybe they rushed back to find Luke, who was a doctor as I understand and maybe Luke arrived in time to hear the awful confession from Judas? Atfterall Judas must have talked to many and more than likely these were leading him astray as Judas must have had a big problem with loyalty issues.

Or John may have found him and Judas may have not quite been cohearant but enough to tell John about it realizing that was done was done and it could not be changed.

These men spent 3 years together day after day they probably knew all the secrets of each but were getting big lessons in forgiveness from the Lord.

The Lord was not into condemnation but forgiveness uppon repentance and I can imagine Jesus saying when he heard of Judas death, then what were his last words?

All of us predestined I don’t think so but it is God’s desire that we have eternal life our hope and what we stive for daaily , hourly?
Dessert

 

[guanophore]

His teachings are aurhority based on the Bible. Unlike the Catholic Church, which centers its authority on the Magisterium.

This is an error. The authority of Catholics is centered on Jesus Christ, who has expressed Himself through Scripture and Teachings.

No - his teachings are based on the Bible - which he references time and again. That would be in contrast to your teachers - the Pope included, when they constantly reference their own declarations, or the Catechism.

If you ever read the catechism, you will find that it is based on the scripture, and nowhere disagrees with scripture. The infallible declarations of the church are not “their own” but those of the Holy Spirit. that is the ONLY reason they are infallible.

He teaches from the Bible. It's simple. Also, I do not "rely" on Sproul, as you would rely on the Pope, or Bishops, or priests for your salvation. I can learn a lot from Sproul and teachers like him, but ultimately I have to be responsible for my own salvation. I can look to no man to be a representitive of Christ for me, except Christ Himself./'QUOTE]

Then you may wish to consider another place upon which to rely!

We do not rely on the teachers for salvation, but upon the cross of Christ, in whose Holy blood we have been washed and cleansed. yes, we can learn a lot from others who have also been washed, when we read their writings. I commend to you also the early church fathers.

(Edited By Moderator)

 

[Randy_Carson]

.

The adding to the faith the RCC talks about is not “goodness.” Nor is is knowlege, self-control or any of the other points listed. It’s sacremental works that have nothing to do with these things. It is not adding “goodness”, or “knowledge”, or “self-control” to add grace to yourself through receiving the sacrement of the Mass. Rather it’s doing something to get something. This is very different, and your example is not a good one.

Since we know that we cannot obligate God in any way by our “works” as Paul clearly teaches in Romans, what exactly are you talking about when you say that Catholics are “doing something to get something”?

Neither the Bible nor the Church teaches this.

 

[mikeledes]

Calvinist predestination, which limits the grace of justification to the elect, makes God a liar.

Ezekiel 18:32

32"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

Ezekiel 33:11

11"Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live."

God Bless,
Michael