"Works" Salvation?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Linkowski
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Linkowski, I encourage you to try studying the New Testament in its entirety, not just those parts, primarily Pauline, which support your taught theology. Any of us, whatever our position, can take verses from the Bible to justify our position. Suicide? “And Judas went out and hanged himself.” “Go ye therefore and do likewise.” Okay, that’s an extreme example, but is no different than what you’re doing by ignoring the very simple and explicit words of our Savior concerning what we must do to enter heaven. The complete picture requires us to start with a clean slate and an open mind in order to see the common thread that runs throughout both the Old and the New Testaments, specifically that our love of God is made manifest in our love of neighbor. Our obedience, or lack thereof, to the two great commandments will determine where we spend eternity, not how many times we cry “Lord, Lord” or how many times we show up for church.

Again, I encourage you to forget for a while what you have been taught, forget for a while the writings of Paul, go back to the gospels, particularly Matthew and Mark, and study and meditate on the words, all of them, of our Savior. Then, when you read Paul’s epistles, you just may form a different opinion. Remember that the pupil cannot be greater than the teacher. Therefore, what Paul had to say can never supersede the teachings of Christ. Sadly, you seem to have put the cart ahead of the horse.
I have been studying this in depth for years with an open mind…even to the point of almost returning to the church 2 or 3 times (I was raised Catholic). But, I am convinced through all of this personal and prayerful study that we are justified by faith alone.

The teachings or Christ and those that are of Paul are one and the same…for all scripture is given by inspiration of the Spirit…all the words are Christ’s no matter whose pen they came from. All parts of scripture get the same weight. Nor can scripture contradict itself.

If you read my postings without clinging so tightly to what you have been taught and with a prayerful mind seeking truth, you will find that your porition is incorrect.
 
I have been studying this in depth for years with an open mind…even to the point of almost returning to the church 2 or 3 times (I was raised Catholic). But, I am convinced through all of this personal and prayerful study that we are justified by faith alone.

The teachings or Christ and those that are of Paul are one and the same…for all scripture is given by inspiration of the Spirit…all the words are Christ’s no matter whose pen they came from. All parts of scripture get the same weight. Nor can scripture contradict itself.

If you read my postings without clinging so tightly to what you have been taught and with a prayerful mind seeking truth, you will find that your porition is incorrect.
The same can be said for your position Craig.

The New Testament does not support a faith alone (Sola Fide) belief. FREE MP3 Bible study. and an MP3 debate on SF.
Pax tecum,
 
I respectfully have to disagree…as you know, I have been painfully and prayerfully searching this out and scripture clearly says that we are justified on the basis of faith alone…

I think you will find that as we go into Romans 4, 5, 6, and 7 where Paul begins to speak of justification by faith, you will find he is speaking of the entire law including the moral law and the 10 commandments.

Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
We know, through the commandments what sin, in fact is…Paul includes this statement in Romans 7…

Romans 7:7 KJV 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

You cannot say that we are justified by faith AND part of the law, namely the 10 commandments. We are justified by faith alone.

Secondly, to include the passage from James 2 is also a problem. This would draw a major contradiction to what Paul is saying since James is speaking of works of love which, we know, love whether it be of God or of fellow man hangs on the 10 commandments as we are taught in the scriptures. This is the moral law and we see that we are justified apart from this law. If you are going to turn around and say that we are justified by works of love, this interpretation then contradicts what Paul has said in Romans. But, we can make the conclusion that “justified” in James chapter 2 is not the sense of “justified” that is being used in Romans 3, 4, 5, 6…etc.

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Test of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G1344

You can see that, in the book of Romans, and specifically speaking in the areas of Romans that we have been looking at, definition number 3 of dikaioo is what is in view - since we are speaking in Romans of justification versus condemnation…

Romans 8:33-34 KJV 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

However from the text of James 2, we see that the definition number 2 of justified is in view…

James 2:17-24 KJV 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We are speaking here of what true living faith is and that he was SHOWN to be righteous. It certainly is not spekaing of justified in the court setting (Before God)…

Romans 4:2-3 KJV 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

But in James 2 he is speaking of justification as seen by men as the context reads. We are justified by faith alone as you can see.
 
Are we justified on the basis of faith alone APART FROM the works of the law, including the moral law (10 commandments which are basically the 2 commandments of loving God and loving neighbor)?
 
If you read my postings without clinging so tightly to what you have been taught and with a prayerful mind seeking truth, you will find that your porition is incorrect.
Craig, I started from your position a few years ago, and became so convinced that the Bible does not teach what you claim it does that I converted.

Furthermore, there are many, many non-Catholic Christians who believe that we are justified on the basis of our faith and works, as the Bible plainly says in James 2:24. Since all of these other non-Catholic Christians all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit in their interpretation of scripture, how can we have any confidence that your position is the correct one, and their position (as well as ours) is the incorrect one?

Unfortunately, this is where the foundational error of sola scriptura leads - multiple contradictory doctrines, all with claims of Holy Spirit guidance. The problem is that sacred Scripture reminds us that incorrect doctrine can lead to destruction (2 Peter 3:16, 1 Timothy 4:16, 1 Timothy 6:3, 2 Timothy 4:3, Titus 1:9, Titus 2:1). Either you think your interpretation (and that of everyone who agrees with you) is infallible, or it could very well be wrong (which would be problematic in light of John 16:13, where Jesus promises the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, not multiple truth-claims).

Since doctrine matters, and since Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, then only one of these competing truth-claims can really be true. According to scripture, there is one guarantor of truth: the Church (1 Timothy 3:15) which is ordained to settle disputes amongst Christians (Matthew 18:17).

Even more, the Bible doesn’t claim to be the final arbiter, as indicated in 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and John 21:25.

Unless you get rid of the error that is the foundation for all other errors, namely sola scriptura, you’ll never have a firm grasp of the truth of this matter.
 
Craig, I started from your position a few years ago, and became so convinced that the Bible does not teach what you claim it does that I converted.

Furthermore, there are many, many non-Catholic Christians who believe that we are justified on the basis of our faith and works, as the Bible plainly says in James 2:24. Since all of these other non-Catholic Christians all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit in their interpretation of scripture, how can we have any confidence that your position is the correct one, and their position (as well as ours) is the incorrect one?

Unfortunately, this is where the foundational error of sola scriptura leads - multiple contradictory doctrines, all with claims of Holy Spirit guidance. The problem is that sacred Scripture reminds us that incorrect doctrine can lead to destruction (2 Peter 3:16, 1 Timothy 4:16, 1 Timothy 6:3, 2 Timothy 4:3, Titus 1:9, Titus 2:1). Either you think your interpretation (and that of everyone who agrees with you) is infallible, or it could very well be wrong (which would be problematic in light of John 16:13, where Jesus promises the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, not multiple truth-claims).

Since doctrine matters, and since Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, then only one of these competing truth-claims can really be true. According to scripture, there is one guarantor of truth: the Church (1 Timothy 3:15) which is ordained to settle disputes amongst Christians (Matthew 18:17).

Even more, the Bible doesn’t claim to be the final arbiter, as indicated in 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and John 21:25.

Unless you get rid of the error that is the foundation for all other errors, namely sola scriptura, you’ll never have a firm grasp of the truth of this matter.
Hi, Dan,

You really need to read my posting in its entirety…it is very clear. You are implying a definition of “justified” that is not at all part of the context in James 2.
 
You’re jumping all over the bible again in an attempt to prove your point. Please read Matthew 25, beginning at verse 31, then tell me Jesus meant something other that what He said. He’s pretty explicit, both in what we are to do and what will happen if we obey or disobey.

I’ll say it again. You’ve gotten something in your head that you are bound and determined to justify. It matters not whether you arrived at where you are by your own study or if you were led astray by someone else, but you are still ascribing more importance to your interpretation of the words of Paul than to what Christ taught in such simple language that it needs no interpretation. As an example, did not Jesus say to love God and love your neighbor? Is there anything ambiguous about this? Yet you are trying to argue from your interpretation of Paul that we are not held to those commandments. When in doubt, go to the source, that source being Jesus Christ. Then read the rest of Sacred Scripture in light of what The Master says. You seem to be doing it the other way around.
 
You’re jumping all over the bible again in an attempt to prove your point. Please read Matthew 25, beginning at verse 31, then tell me Jesus meant something other that what He said. He’s pretty explicit, both in what we are to do and what will happen if we obey or disobey.

I’ll say it again. You’ve gotten something in your head that you are bound and determined to justify. It matters not whether you arrived at where you are by your own study or if you were led astray by someone else. You are ascribing more importance to your interpretation of the words of Paul than to what Christ taught in such simple language that it needs no interpretation.
I guess I do not disagree with you about works but, you are putting the cart before the horse…faith is the root and works are the fruit…

Matthew 12:33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35 "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

The tree has to be made good first…you must have faith FIRST.

John 6:28-29 NAS95 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Hebrews 11:6 NAS95 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Don’t you see, unless you completely lay aside any means of attaining to salvation other than the finished work of Christ on the cross and empty yourself of any self righteousness, you do not have faith…the faith is sown in a repentant heart by God and that faith is in Christ and His great sacrifice…

Works not done in this faith mean nothing…

Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

If we could sit down with a Bible, I would show you a whole lot more…this takes too much time.
 
I guess I do not disagree with you about works but, you are putting the cart before the horse…faith is the root and works are the fruit…
The tree has to be made good first…you must have faith FIRST.
Works not done in faith mean nothing…
Craig, you’d be hard-pressed to find a Catholic who disagrees with you on these points. The question is not whether faith proceeds works, but whether faith alone justifies, or a combination of faith and works.
If we could sit down with a Bible, I would show you a whole lot more…this takes too much time.
The problem is that we would have to trust your ability to infallibly interpret the scriptures and sort out your Spirit-guided renderings from those of every Christian who disagrees with you. What do you have that guarantees that you’ll teach us the truth about what these scriptures really mean?
 
The Bible is very clear - you are thinking too far ahead to what James talks about in chapter 2 - read Romans first because those are the first priorties of business.
 
The Bible is very clear - you are thinking too far ahead to what James talks about in chapter 2 - read Romans first because those are the first priorties of business.
I think Bob has offered some excellent advice - concentrate on the words of Jesus first. Here are a few examples of what Jesus says in the gospels:
Matthew 19:16-21 (NASB):
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”
Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
(all-caps sections come from the NASB on BibleGateway, underlining is mine).

Jesus doesn’t tell the rich young man to have faith in order to get to heaven. In fact, there’s nothing in this passage about faith at all, but rather, following the commandments.
 
I think Bob has offered some excellent advice - concentrate on the words of Jesus first. Here are a few examples of what Jesus says in the gospels:

(all-caps sections come from the NASB on BibleGateway, underlining is mine).

Jesus doesn’t tell the rich young man to have faith in order to get to heaven. In fact, there’s nothing in this passage about faith at all, but rather, following the commandments.
Dan, with all respect, you are confused…he seeks repentance from sin and the Lordship of Christ by presenting the law first…in order for anyone to be justified by faith in Christ, they must tremble at Sinai first (the law). This man justified himself and was as the man in Luke 18:10-12 and showed no repentance. The word needs to fall on good soil…

Luke 8:15 NAS95 15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

The word will not take proper root if we do not see this forst…

Matthew 5:1-8 NAS95 1 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying, 3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. 5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. 6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. 7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. 8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
 
I have been studying this in depth for years with an open mind…even to the point of almost returning to the church 2 or 3 times (I was raised Catholic). But, I am convinced through all of this personal and prayerful study that we are justified by faith alone.

The teachings or Christ and those that are of Paul are one and the same…for all scripture is given by inspiration of the Spirit…all the words are Christ’s no matter whose pen they came from. All parts of scripture get the same weight. Nor can scripture contradict itself.

If you read my postings without clinging so tightly to what you have been taught and with a prayerful mind seeking truth, you will find that your porition is incorrect.
Link-

As you probably know, Scott Hahn came to the exact opposite conclusion as a Presbyterian minister. And so did Robert Sungenis (also seminary trained at a VERY conservative Calvinist school) Jimmy Akin, Tim Staples, Mark Shea, Stephen Ray…well, you get the idea.

But I can understand the attraction…having a catchy slogan like “faith alone” and a simple approach to justification is appealing.

It’s just not biblical.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Link-

As you probably know, Scott Hahn came to the exact opposite conclusion as a Presbyterian minister. And so did Robert Sungenis (also seminary trained at a VERY conservative Calvinist school) Jimmy Akin, Tim Staples, Mark Shea, Stephen Ray…well, you get the idea.

But I can understand the attraction…having a catchy slogan like “faith alone” and a simple approach to justification is appealing.

It’s just not biblical.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
I respectfully disagree. Sorry all - I must go.
 
The Bible is very clear - you are thinking too far ahead to what James talks about in chapter 2 - read Romans first because those are the first priorties of business.
Not so Craig…The New Testament teaches that without works faith is dead.

You can pick verses from all over the place to try support your position, but when the issue is studied in the full context of the New Testament…the Catholic belief surfaces as the one that is the real New Testament teaching…

Let go of your insecurity blanket Craig and embrace what is there…not what you wish was there.
Pax tecum,
 
I respectfully disagree. Sorry all - I must go.
7: Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8: If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there!
9: If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10: even there thy hand shall lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11: If I say, “Let only darkness cover me, and the light about me be night,”
12: even the darkness is not dark to thee, the night is bright as the day; for darkness is as light with thee.
13: For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother’s womb. (Psalm 139)

You can run…but 🙂
 
Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter XVI:
Of Good Works
I. Good works are only such as God has commanded in His holy Word, and not such as, without the warrant thereof, are devised by men, out of blind zeal, or upon any pretence of good intention.
II. These good works, done in obedience to God’s commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith: and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren,adorn the profession of the Gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries,and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.
III. Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ. And that they may be enabled thereunto, beside the graces they have already received, there is required an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will, and to do, of His good pleasure: yet are they not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty unless upon a special motion of the Spirit; but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.
IV. They who, in their obedience, attain to the greatest height which is possibly in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate, and to do more than God requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.
V. We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin, or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come; and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom, by them, we can neither profit, nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins, but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants: and because, as they are good, they proceed from His Spirit, and as they are wrought by us, they are defiled, and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of God’s judgment.
VI. Notwithstanding, the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblamable and unreproveable in God’s sight; but that He, looking upon them in His Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.
VII. Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands; and of good use both to themselves and others: yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith; nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God, they are therefore sinful and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God: and yet, their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God.|
Any problem with that from either side?
I think so…
 
When the Bible says below that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law, what is he saying?

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The above is saying we are justified by faith totally separate from anything in the law, correct? This includes the moral law too, correct? 10 Commandments? Ceremonial law? All or part of?

Just looking for some feedback.

Thanks.
We are never justified when/ we go against the moral law. I have experienced this first hand in my personal life. When i go against some commandment (say i sin against charity), i always pay dearly, though i may not always see the consequences of my sin right away (or at all :eek: 😦 )… Sometimes i see consequences much further down the road… But in any case, Jesus, when asked how to get into Heaven, did not say anything about accepting him as “Lord and Savior” (though i’m sure he wants us to do that 🙂 .
He said to obey the commandments…
Maybe this is why the Church teaches that others outside the Catholic Church and even outside of Christianity can be saved… (There really are those who have not heard of Jesus or if they have, don’t know much about him. their ignorance is not their own fault and therefore, they can be saved. God loves ALL his children, not jus Christians…).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top