"Works" Salvation?

[heisenburg]

Sand…

Review the Logic Equation used…

Again… logic is not subjective… it is objective and definable.

If It is a symbol… the rest falls apart based on logic. not perception
If it is real… The argument still holds based on logic not perception

The Logic is actually very simple to see…

To you In Christ

 

[heisenburg]

the blood was used, in fact, it was given for atonement
(Lev 17:11), and poured onto the altar.

I knew that!

Brain freeze… Thanks for the correction!

Point doesn’t change though

In Christ

 

[sandusky]

Mannyfit75:

Don’t we have a thread on John 6 already?

Mannyfit75:

If the Bible requires the Church for its Canon (list of Books to include), I would think that the decision process to decide on the Canon would have to be “inspired” by God. I think the same kind of Grace would be required to decide on what books to include in the Bible Canon as was required to write the books in the first place. To me there are 4 possibilities.

Yes, and there others discussing the canon.

 

[I_Leatherman]

You miss the point, I Leatherman, and heisenburg.

Eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ is illogical, and irrational, and yet you do it.

You understand the process of practical sanctification with conformity to the image of Christ as its goal, and yet you reject the scriptural command to the elect to persevere to the end on the basis that the command renders other verses without “sense.”

Why?

“Eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ is illogical, and irrational, and yet you do it.”

Eating and drinking His Flesh and Blood is a direct command to you from the lips of God.
If you refuse to obey He tells you that you Will Not have life in you.
God is logic and reason & His command to eat and drink obey His logic and reason - but not yours or His disciples who left Him.

You understand the process of practical sanctification with conformity to the image of Christ as its goal, and yet you reject the scriptural command to the elect to persevere to the end on the basis that the command renders other verses without “sense.”

We don’t reject any command. Whats your point?

Our process is continuous until we arrive at the end of our time.
What happens to the elect if they refuse to persevere to the end.

Do you obey this command; ‘Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.’ You did not answer.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes, and there others discussing the canon.

It is better to discuss the canon of scripture on another forum, and we best stick to Works salvation

 

[heisenburg]

we best stick to Works

Agreed…

Sorry for the derail

 

[sandusky]

heisenburg:

Again… logic is not subjective… it is objective and definable.

Heisenburg, I think you are making an exception for yourself, and for your logic, on the issue of eternal security, and perseverance, and anywhere else that it is convenient for you to do so; IOW you are inconsistent.

 

[Northwind]

If Jn 6 is meant to be taken literally “eat and drink” then why are so many Catholics not drinking? I know that Catholics believe that the host is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus himself and the quick answer will be that the host does contain the blood. Hence, no need to literally drink. But that isn’t being literal here. Jesus didn’t say “eat only” or “drink only”, He said to “eat and drink”. Again if Jn 6 is to be taken literally as is being argued here, then both eating and drinking should occur in every parish by everyone every time mass is offered, and its not. Many people either pass by the cup or when the cup is empty they do without. I just think its a contradiction to say you ‘must’ eat and drink when we all know that no such thing occurs.

1 Peter 1:18-20
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.
NASB

This is the blood being spoken of.

Sorry for the continuing the derailment, back to the OP…

 

[heisenburg]

That being said… I can be corrected… If my logic isn’t working based on the rules of logic, I have no problem in it being pointed out. All i ask is that you point out the logical errors. Since logic is rule based… I cant argue with it

Rather not be a hypocrite you know…

Thanks Sand

In Christ

 

[sandusky]

I Leatherman:

Do you obey this command; ‘Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.’ You did not answer.

What kind of life shall you not have if you don’t obey that command, and what kind of life shall you have if you do?

 

[onenow1]

HI, Some pretty plain stuff here.

Gifts Received At Christs Expense.

Matt.7:21-- not Lord, lord but he who does the will of the Father.
Matt.19:16-71-- to have life keep the commandments.
John.14:21-- he who keeps my commandments loves me.
Roms.2:2-8-- eternal life through perserverance in good works.
Gal.5:4-6-- nothing counts but faith working through love.
Eph.2:8-10-- we are created in Christ for good works.
Phil.2:12-13-- work out salvation with fear and trembling.
Jam.2:14-24-- a man is justified by works and not faith alone.

Rom.2:5-8-- God will repay each man according to his works.
2Cor.5:10-- recompense according to what we did in body.
2cor.11:15-- their end will correspond to their deeds.
1Peter.1:17-- God judges impartially according to ones works.
Rev.20:12-13-- the dead are judged according to their deeds.
Col.3:24-25-- we will receive due payment for whatever we do.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[Randy_Carson]

So, the commands of scripture, in order for you to believe them, must fit your logical and rational understanding before you’ll submit them, is that right?

Give me a logical and rational reasoning of how, and why one must eat the flesh and blood of Jesus to have life in themselves, please.

You mean other than:

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Seems like the kind of command one ought to logically and rationally submit to to me. The “no life” part covers the “why” part of your question.

How does this happen? Through the consecration of the bread and wine performed by a Catholic priest in persona Christi (cf. 2 Co 2:10 KJV) through transubstantiation. This is done according the to commandment of Christ to the Apostles at the Last Supper.

By the way, I’ve observed the great sense of urgency, the imperative manner in which evangelicals proclaim “Unless a man be born again…” Jesus only said this to Nicodemus twice in John 2.

Jesus spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood four times in John 6. Does that mean it might be twice as important!

 

[sandusky]

You mean other than:

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Seems like the kind of command one ought to logically and rationally submit to to me. The “no life” part covers the “why” part of your question.

How does this happen? Through the consecration of the bread and wine performed by a Catholic priest in persona Christi (cf. 2 Co 2:10 KJV) through transubstantiation. This is done according the to commandment of Christ to the Apostles at the Last Supper.

As with scripture, so too with my arguments, you take them out of context.
(See my post #284 for the point of my remarks).

 

[Randy_Carson]

As with scripture, so too with my arguments, you take them out of context.
(See my post #284 for the point of my remarks).

Prove it. You asked:

So, the commands of scripture, in order for you to believe them, must fit your logical and rational understanding before you’ll submit them, is that right?

Give me a logical and rational reasoning of how, and why one must eat the flesh and blood of Jesus to have life in themselves, please.

I did exactly what you asked.

 

[sandusky]

Randy Carson:

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Seems like the kind of command one ought to logically and rationally submit to to me. The “no life” part covers the “why” part of your question.

How does this happen? Through the consecration of the bread and wine performed by a Catholic priest in persona Christi (cf. 2 Co 2:10 KJV) through transubstantiation. This is done according the to commandment of Christ to the Apostles at the Last Supper.

By the way, I’ve observed the great sense of urgency, the imperative manner in which evangelicals proclaim “Unless a man be born again…” Jesus only said this to Nicodemus twice in John 2.

Jesus spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood four times in John 6. Does that mean it might be twice as important!

Four times makes it so? An interesting hermeneutic, and using it to appeal to 2 Cor 2:10 to support your position, causes me no wonder.

Also, the command of Christ to the apostles at the Last Supper was do this in remembrance of me, it was not transubstantiate this bread, and this wine; again, your free-form hermeneutic misleads you.

With respect to transubstantiation, it is irrational, and it is based upon a man’s philosophy, ie., word-wisdom.

God is not a God of confusion, neither is He a God of irrationality, and neither does He want His people to be fooled by man’s word-wisdom.

Therefore, whenever God, in history, performed a miracle, God’s miracle was observable; that is how God’s people knew that God had done it.

Transubstantiation is not observable, and therefore, it must be taken on faith; but faith in God is based on reason, not unobservable word-wisdom.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Do you obey this command; ‘Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.’ You did not answer.

What kind of life shall you not have if you don’t obey that command, and what kind of life shall you have if you do?

He did not say you will have this ‘kind’ or that *‘kind’ *of life if you eat His Flesh or not.
He said you will not have LIFE if you do not eat.
52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.
The alternative is;49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead.
Presumably their fathers believed what they ought to have believed, they ate manna, but they died.
They did what they were commanded.
What happens to one who does not hear the command?
What happens to one who hears but refuses to obey the commands given?
Are they more dead or less dead than the Fathers who obeyed but only had manna, and not the manna from heaven.

 

[Linkowski]

If you would like, I have started a new thread called - Catholics, Born Again?? Here I show more contradictory/mixed messages that are apparent in Catholic Teaching when compared to scripture. Need help understanding.

Thanks.

 

[apophasis]

I just want to check something, Apo. Can you please enumerate what you believe the Catholic position on salvation is? I know you have had this told to you numerous times, and you don’t share it, but I am curious if you can articulate it properly. I cannot be sure if you are just refusing to accept it, or if you just don’t understand it. If you can articulate it, then I will be satisfied that you are just rejecting it.

What specifically in my posts cause you to think I fail to understand the RC position of salvation?

 

[apophasis]

Then he can give you the gift of Damnation, if he see’s fit.

Apophasis:
That “gift” was already given to us by Adam (read Rom. 5:12-21).

Keikiolu: Very clever…!

I wasn’t trying to be clever at all - I was being Biblical. Did you read Rom. 5:12-21?? Christ, the “last Adam” comes bearing a gift totally different from that which we received by transgression through Adam: (1) Abundance of grace (2) righteousness (3) justification
(4) life.

Remember: “The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29).

 

[sandusky]

I Leatherman:

He did not say you will have this ‘kind’ or that ‘kind’ of life if you eat His Flesh or not.
He said you will not have LIFE if you do not eat.
52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.
The alternative is;49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead.
Presumably their fathers believed what they ought to have believed, they ate manna, but they died.
They did what they were commanded.
What happens to one who does not hear the command?
What happens to one who hears but refuses to obey the commands given?
Are they more dead or less dead than the Fathers who obeyed but only had manna, and not the manna from heaven.

So you don’t know what kind of life you are getting, whether this kind, or that kind, but you do know that you are getting LIFE, and that must be a good thing? That doesn’t make any sense to me.

I have not partaken in the Catholic Eucharist for almost 40 years.