"Works" Salvation?

[heisenburg]

Sand…

With respect… I was not directing this at you… I apologize if you felt I was singling you out, I was directing it to those that question whether or not obedience is required, and that said obedience does matter…

In Christ

 

[Tom]

That said, believers will sin, but their sin was dealt with at the cross—all of it (Col 2:13ff et al).

Interesting idea, if I’m immediately forgiven and my sins are already “dealt with at the cross”, can I do what ever I want and automatically be forgiven? Sounds great I’ll start today, may I use your name when God asks me where I got such an outrageous idea? Let’s see, I really want to cheat on my wife… and I’m already forgiven, wow, I can see the potential here! Great theology! Thanks for the guidance.

 

[sandusky]

Interesting idea, if I’m immediately forgiven and my sins are already “dealt with at the cross”, can I do what ever I want and automatically be forgiven? Sounds great I’ll start today, may I use your name when God asks me where I got such an outrageous idea? Let’s see, I really want to cheat on my wife… and I’m already forgiven, wow, I can see the potential here! Great theology! Thanks for the guidance.

Read the thread; perhaps you’ll learn something.

 

[sandusky]

why then do we still suffer for our sins?

Support that.

 

[kaycee]

As I understand it, our cooperation with God is the outcome of prevenient grace: without God getting in ahead of us, we would not cooperate. That cooperation is itself a gift from God. We can claim nothing, boast in nothing, do nothing in ourselves.

If someone believes in Christ, the credit goes to God. If the same person does not believe, it is their fault. The same parallel extends in cooperative acts with God. Merit is God rewarding man for what God has done. It is all gift.

Canon XXIV. If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof: let him be anathema.

Canon XXXII. If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, that they are not also** the good merits of him that is justified, by the good works which he performs** through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life— if so be, however, that he depart in grace,—and also an increase of glory: let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent)

Trent obviously sees it differently. RC grace is an aid(gift) that enables the catholic to “truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life”

 

[Odell]

Support that.

(Heb 12:5-11)
“You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons My son do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him for whom the Lord loves he disciplines he scourges every son he acknowledges.”

Im not going to quote the whole verse you can read it for your self but we are desciplined for our sins

 

[guanophore]

As I understand it, our cooperation with God is the outcome of prevenient grace: without God getting in ahead of us, we would not cooperate. That cooperation is itself a gift from God. We can claim nothing, boast in nothing, do nothing in ourselves.

If someone believes in Christ, the credit goes to God. If the same person does not believe, it is their fault. The same parallel extends in cooperative acts with God. Merit is God rewarding man for what God has done. It is all gift.

I think we might be able to spread that fault around. We can give some to the church, for it’s failures to demonstrate and share God’s love so that others can see Him. We can blame the parents, for not raising the child in the faith. Most of all we can blame the father of lies, who wants to rob all of us of our faith.

 

[apophasis]

Sand…

With respect… I was not directing this at you… I apologize if you felt I was singling you out, I was directing it to those that question whether or not obedience is required

Required for what?

and that said obedience does matter…

Does matter for what? Be specific please!

 

[guanophore]

Matthew 16:23

But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan!..

What are you saying, sandusky? Are you saying that, when Jesus rebuked Peter for his wrong thinking about the Kingdom of Heaven that it invalidated his own words about His body?

 

[guanophore]

That’s a little too cryptic for me; please elaborate.

You have said that when God does miracles,he does them so that they are observable. You reject any miracle that cannot be verified by your reason and your senses (flesh). Since you don’t “see” the elements changed into the body and blood of the Lord, you don’t believe it really happens.

 

[heisenburg]

Apop…

Required by God. You know that as well as I…

Yes Faith comes first… and faith must always be a part of it, And any obedience we do must be done for the glory of God, not for our own glory

But

Obedience to that faith is required by God…
If we don’t obey, and also do not ask for forgiveness for that lack of obedience… He will not let us into heaven…
Period.

I have been very specific on that numerous times…

In Christ

 

[guanophore]

Read the thread; perhaps you’ll learn something.

I read it. I learned that, just because Jesus says something, you don’t necessarily accept it as true.

 

[guanophore]

Support that.

Are you telling us that you don’t suffer? Are you telling us that, when you look at the world around you, you dont see any suffering? Are you telling me that, if all those suffering Africans woulld just put their faith in Christ, they would no longer have HIV, starve, or become the victims of genocide?

 

[DLC]

The reason why so many people feel that the Catholic church teaches a work based salvation is because it does. It is hard for them to understand that anything added to grace for salvation makes it a works oriented salvation The Bible is very clear on this. We are saved, and justified by faith alone. Good works come into play after we are saved and not before or even during salvation.
Rom 11:6
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
NASU

Notice in the following passage several points are made.
Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
NASU

#1. We are saved by God’s grace through faith.
#2. Works are not apart of our salvation.
#3. Salvation is a gift and a gift does not have to be earned or even worked for.
#4. Good are are the result of ones salvation and not before.

We are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross for our salvation. This fact give the believe assurance because God does the saving and securing of our salvation for us. John 10:27-30
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 " My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
NASU

If the sheep do not hear and do not follow Christ then they are NOT HIS sheep and never have been . Those who do follow Christ are His sheep. They have (present tense) eternal life and will never perish. God both saved and secures His sheep forever. Are we stronger than God that we can undue what He has aready done for us, our salvation and security? I think not unless we are more powerful than God.

 

[sandusky]

What are you saying, sandusky? Are you saying that, when Jesus rebuked Peter for his wrong thinking about the Kingdom of Heaven that it invalidated his own words about His body?

Jesus said, if your eye caused you to sin, pluck it out.

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.

If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off.

You must eat His flesh, and drink His blood.

Have you done all of those?

If you have then you are consistent.

If you have not, why not?

 

[kaycee]

Kaycee-

Don’t be so cryptic - it does not further our discussion.

What are you trying to get at here?

If you have a point - make it plainly.

Clearly the RCC teaches that its a gift and a reward. If all are given the same gift of grace, why do some merit heaven(and purgatory) while others go to hell?

Certainly the catholic can boast! Cooperation IS synergy. It takes 2 to tango. Credit is given to the catholic and a basis for boasting.

“Thank you God for not letting be like those who refuse to cooperate with your free grace and are lost, but I attended mass religiously, got communion, went to confession, prayed the rosary, did good works, I cooporated with your free grace and now can merit eternal life with your help so long as i die in state of grace”

 

[apophasis]

(Heb 12:5-11)
“You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons My son do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him for whom the Lord loves he disciplines he scourges every son he acknowledges.”

Im not going to quote the whole verse you can read it for your self but we are desciplined for our sins

In the previous post you said “suffer for our sins.” In Biblical language such suffering is expiatory. Do you believe God’s discipline toward the sons He acknowledges and loves is expiative?

Does a father discipline his child in order to make him “a son?”

 

[sandusky]

Are you telling us that you don’t suffer? Are you telling us that, when you look at the world around you, you dont see any suffering? Are you telling me that, if all those suffering Africans woulld just put their faith in Christ, they would no longer have HIV, starve, or become the victims of genocide?

What I said was, “support that.”

 

[heisenburg]

Good works come into play after we are saved and not before or even during salvation.

Sorta… Tweak a little

Good works come into play after we are Justified.

We are saved by Grace alone… Completely agree… Nothing we can do will get us there… It what we do with that gift is the key…

We can throw it away if we are not obedient to his will… whether it is by works, loving they neighbor, etc…

By the way, the bible does not clearly teach that we are saved by faith alone. That is just what you were TAUGHT the bible teaches, but not what it actually teaches.

If however you also believe in OSAS…
Why didn’t OSAS as you know it exist until the 1800’s… Look into the history of it…
Why are OSAS Christians in the Minority even within Protestantism…
Why is True faith/No Obedience OSAS REALY in a minority…
Why is there no scriptural teaching…
Why is there NO evidence of it in the OT…

OSAS is a bad idea… and not biblical… Im sorry you were taught that…

In Christ

 

[apophasis]

Apop…

Required by God. You know that as well as I…

Yes Faith comes first… and faith must always be a part of it, And any obedience we do must be done for the glory of God, not for our own glory

But

Obedience to that faith is required by God…
If we don’t obey, and also do not ask for forgiveness for that lack of obedience… He will not let us into heaven…
Period.

I have been very specific on that numerous times…

In Christ

You said “obedience is REQUIRED.” I asked you “required for WHAT?” Please answer me.