A
apophasis
Guest
So then, ultimately, salvation hinges on YOUR performance.
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G
guanophore
Guest
I see that you are having trouble discerning which verses should be taken literally, and which figuratively. This is understandbible since you reject the guidance of the Church when interpreting the scriptures.
Jesus uses hyperbole often during His teaching. It is necessary to balance these teachings with the remainder of scripture, and not to take them out of context, or look at them in a vaccuum. Jesus also said:
Matt 15:17-20
17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and so passes on? 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
He is saying that it is not the “hand” or the '“foot” or the foods we eat that defile us, as was a common misconception at the time. Of course he does not want us to amputate ourselves! He is saying that the root of sin comes from the heart, from the inner man. Yes, it does find its way out into our bodily members, but He is saying we must deal with the root.
In the same manner, reliance upon only reason and the senses is “missing the mark” and comes from an error in thinking that proceeds from within the heart. One who is not looking with the eyes of faith will not see the Kingdom of God, just as one who is trying to rationalize and perceive with the bodily senses the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist will not perceive it.
K
kaycee
Guest
**Glad you brought that up. Paul knew after proclaiming the Gospel of Grace that many would react in same exact manner as you are and answers your objection in Romans 6! **
BTW, you can always tell your preaching the true Gospel when reactions like yours and accusations of antinomianism are brought up.
In Romans 5 Paul talks about justification by Faith as a past event!
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. …8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! …17…how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
**Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? *Shall we go on sinning ***so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life;For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
G
guanophore
Guest
Because a properly taught child of God will unite his sufferings with Christ, thereby “making up in the body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ”
Yes, I think sometimes he does. He desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, and sometimes people are more likely to become saved when they realize they need a saviour.
H
heisenburg
Guest
Apop…
If I have been unclear… I apologize…
Required by God…
If it is Gods will for you to do something, and you refuse… The Bible says you are to be cut off, and have blasphemed the lord… This is in both the Old and the New.
Yes, Once god Justifies us in Baptism, we must be obedient in all aspects. Whether it is works, Love, repenting, Faith, spreading the word, etc. We must be obedient to god, or he will cut us off…
The Bible says, those who have blasphemed the HS have no sacrifice left. In Other words, you will not be allowed into heaven…
That is why the Cross of Christ is so important… We will fail from time to time. And when we ask for forgiveness, That Grace that we lost when we blasphemed the lord, is restored.
Its all right there in the bible…
I plead with you, not to try and twist these words into saying I am ‘earning’ salvation… I am saying it is given to us freely, but we can blow it.
I am saying that once we are justified in baptism, we must live the life Christ asks of us… If we do not, we are going against his will, and blaspheming the HS… when we blaspheme the HS we are cut off… We remain cut off until we ask for forgiveness and Christ gives it back to us once again freely.
In Christ
If I have been unclear… I apologize…
Required by God…
If it is Gods will for you to do something, and you refuse… The Bible says you are to be cut off, and have blasphemed the lord… This is in both the Old and the New.
Yes, Once god Justifies us in Baptism, we must be obedient in all aspects. Whether it is works, Love, repenting, Faith, spreading the word, etc. We must be obedient to god, or he will cut us off…
The Bible says, those who have blasphemed the HS have no sacrifice left. In Other words, you will not be allowed into heaven…
That is why the Cross of Christ is so important… We will fail from time to time. And when we ask for forgiveness, That Grace that we lost when we blasphemed the lord, is restored.
Its all right there in the bible…
I plead with you, not to try and twist these words into saying I am ‘earning’ salvation… I am saying it is given to us freely, but we can blow it.
I am saying that once we are justified in baptism, we must live the life Christ asks of us… If we do not, we are going against his will, and blaspheming the HS… when we blaspheme the HS we are cut off… We remain cut off until we ask for forgiveness and Christ gives it back to us once again freely.
In Christ
A
apophasis
Guest
So then, by your definition the term “salvation” is retricted to only “getting there.”
So then, salvation “by grace” has nothing to do with staying there. That burden is put back on YOU.
In other words, you “get there” by grace but you “stay there” by works.
And this is not a works salvation how?
G
guanophore
Guest
Salvation. Obedeience is required for salvation.
John 12:26
26 If any one serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there shall my servant be also; if any one serves me, the Father will honor him.
Or do you think that one can still be saved, and dishonored by the Father?
A
apophasis
Guest
So then your salvation is based on your obedience.
K
kaycee
Guest
I dont think its the protestant who has the problem.
G
guanophore
Guest
because the “works” that we do to maintain the gift of justification are based in that sanctifying grace that came with justification, and proceed from Christ, in the Holy Spirit, who “works in you to will and to do”. It is saying that we enter into a cooperative process iwth the Holy Spirit, with Whom we must work together to will and to do. God does not take away our free will when we are baptized into Christ. He enables us, once freed from the bond of sin, to freely begin to cooperate with the sanctifying grace that is at that time placed within,so that we can become the persons God wants us to be. Do you understand the process differently?
H
heisenburg
Guest
Apop…
If i give you an egg and I tell you too keep up with it until tomorrow or else you don’t get an omelet
Then… You Drop the egg… do you get an omelet
No
However, if you break the egg i gave you freely and say… Im sorry, I broke the egg… can I get another… and I give you the egg freely once again… Does the fact that you broke the egg have anything to do with the fact that I gave you the egg…
No
You didnt earn the egg… you just needed to maintain it
you cant earn salvation… you just have to maintain it…
This is what the bible teaches…
In Christ
If i give you an egg and I tell you too keep up with it until tomorrow or else you don’t get an omelet
Then… You Drop the egg… do you get an omelet
No
However, if you break the egg i gave you freely and say… Im sorry, I broke the egg… can I get another… and I give you the egg freely once again… Does the fact that you broke the egg have anything to do with the fact that I gave you the egg…
No
You didnt earn the egg… you just needed to maintain it
you cant earn salvation… you just have to maintain it…
This is what the bible teaches…
In Christ
A
apophasis
Guest
In other words, you do save yourself, since in this context “suffering” is expiatory. So when one “suffers” as a consequence of sinning, that consequential suffering is actually serving as a saving agent. Interesting indeed.
However, the Hebrew verse is referring to “sons.” Does God have “sons” who are not saved?
K
kaycee
Guest
“God does His part, now we must DO our part”
The Reformers were correct in their assertions!
Cooperation for salvation is Not the Gospel of Grace.
G
guanophore
Guest
As in most things Catholic, it is not “either.or” but “both/and”
Yes, Catholics believe it is possible, once becoming regerated, to reject God’s grace:
Heb 6:3-6
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt."
It is our responsibility to:
1 Tim 6:20
guard what has been entrusted to you." (salvation)
and through obedience to the Teachings of the Church:
Phil 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
cooperate with the grace that was placed in us in baptism, and to persist in that grace to the ultimate goal of eternal life with God.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Sure no problem.
In John 8:15, Jesus said, “You judge according to the flesh…” What he meant was that the Jews were looking at things from a purely intellectual point of view and using their reason in a vain attempt to understand things of the spirit.
If you’d like, I could explain the tripartite nature of man for you…would this help you?
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Required by love.
John 14:15
"If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
A
apophasis
Guest
I don’t see justification as a “process” at all. The idea of being a “process” is strictly RC - not Biblical. The notion of it being a process is rooted in Rome’s doctrine of “initial” justification. A phrase/notion not found/taught in Scripture. Justification, according to Scripture, is a gift (not a process) by His grace through (the cooperative efforts of both the Savior and the sinner? NO!) the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24).
The false doctrine of “initial” justification demonstrates how Rome has moved away from the cross. The efforts of the Reformation was to get back to it - to the glory of Christ.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
The so called “Rome” moved away from the cross is a misunderstanding in your part.
The Catholic Church remain faithful the teachings of Jesus Christ. This includes that separating faith and works as merely faith ALONE, or works alone is not practice.
The Church teaches the grace of God saves which is demonstrated by one’s faith, which is show throw the love of God, and by works to show one’s faith in action.
A
apophasis
Guest
If the “egg” is the gift of salvation, then it is mine based on possession. And that “gift” comes with its own guarantee:Eph. 1:13-14 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God’s own} possession, to the praise of His glory.
G
guanophore
Guest
You did not answer my question I posted earlier asking you to articulate your understanding of salvation from a Catholic point of view. I thought, if you could do that, I could discern if you are really misunderstanding, or if you are just obstinant. It may be a little of both. Your understanding of justification is definitely Catholic. I think the problem I think is one of semantics. CAtholics see salvation as a process that begins with justification (which you describe above)that occurs at one moment in time, and has specific grace attached to it. After that Catholics believe that we are to hold, nurture, mature, and “work” with that grace until the day of judgement, where we will all be judged according to our works (did we preserve the grace given, or not?) and God will make disposition of our souls based upon our choices.
So, my question for you is this. Supposing we agree, for the sake of discussion, that your definition of salvation is indeed Catholic. What would the implications be? Why is this such a stuck point for you? Why is it so hard for you to give up your wrong understanding of Catholic teaching? what would have to change if you found out you misunderstood us all this time?
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