S
- Status
A
apophasis
Guest
Ah yes, were these not those that Moses received at Mt. Sinai and were engraved on stones?
And it is your contention that it is this “moral law” that must be obeyed or one loses one’s salvation?
G
guanophore
Guest
I am not sure if I am understanding your point. To me it seems that the Grace of God is without limit, and far more powerful than man’s puny mind. It seems quite impossible that man can do anything to cancel God’s grace. However, I would accept that one can cancel or hinder the effect of that grace in one’s own life. It is possible to reject the purpose of God for oneself, and also to fall from grace.
"you have fallen away from grace ".Gal 5:4
Rev 2:5
5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent."
" For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them." 2 Peter 2:19-21
I understand the OSAS folks will say that these people were either not saved in the first place, or that they never really did lose their salvation. However, the Catholic Church teaches differently.
One must build upon the foundation of grace, and persevere, so that the gift of grace is not thrown away.
D
DLC
Guest
The whole point of Romans 11:6 is that works for salvation cancels out the grace of God.
G
guanophore
Guest
You misunderstand the Church’s teaching on salvation, DLC. God justifies by grace,through faith. It is not a work, lest any man should boast. This was accomplished by Jesus on the cross:
1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
Works are the outward expression of an inward faith. We believe that we must “continue in grace” in order for that grace,received at baptism at the moment we are justified, to bring us to our final santification.The Apostle explains:
" May **grace and peace be multiplied **to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3 His **divine power has granted **to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. 5 For this very reason **make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. **10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:2-11
SINCE we have been justified, called, elected, cleansed and been given knowledge, it is our DUTY, then to MAKE EVERY EFFORT to manifest the fruits of this gift, sot hat we do not forget that we were cleansed of old sins. BE MORE ZEALOUS TO CONFIRM the call, he says, so that we will not fall. Works CONFIRM our election (and justification).
Works will not merit salvation DLC, but only confirm, strengthen, and preserve the grace received through His gift until the Last Day.
D
DLC
Guest
Then is Romans 5:1 correct when Paul tells us that we are justified by faith and, as a result of being justified by faith, we have peace with God?
Rom 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV
Rom 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV
D
dessert
Guest
There is a comma there and verse 2
“through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
Sounds like we are DOING some things here ,;; we have access into or so we could have accesss out like sin or unbelief cuts off and therefore needs repentance
standing means not going back looking forward
rejoicing; giving God Glory and first fruits of our labor
hope; future trust that we will see Jesus because of our commitment to the Holy Spirit to the performances to the will of God.
Glory of God not our own vain boasting glory
NKJV
Dessert
K
Keikiolu
Guest
Nice to be here…!:extrahappy: :bounce: :clapping: :dancing:
Welcome Welcome Welcome from Dessert
And, I didn’t realize we had such a trippy assortment of emoticons available.
I shall NOT be using them, though, as I personally find them obnoxious,… but I do like your tasteful little “front row at a taping of Friends” group above…!
Thanks brudda, or tita…!!Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
F
Friend_Of_Rome
Guest
A simple approach is often the best:
How can a Christian actually say he follows Christ when he doesn’t believe that works and faith earn salvation? If he truly reads the teachings of Christ, he should see that the two are inseperable. St. Paul once said that, “Faith, if it hath not works, is dead.”
How can you argue with this? This says it in black and white!
How can a Christian actually say he follows Christ when he doesn’t believe that works and faith earn salvation? If he truly reads the teachings of Christ, he should see that the two are inseperable. St. Paul once said that, “Faith, if it hath not works, is dead.”
How can you argue with this? This says it in black and white!
K
Keikiolu
Guest
A beautiful example of “hyper-interpretation” to assume that because a “doorway” is described as “narrow” (tight, etc) it means you can’t get through with presents for the giver of the party.
Sandy is going to believe what Sandy is going to believe, of course. The fact the Sandy actually thinks that his/her arguments are in the least persuasive is simply a testament to his/her persistence,… which is cool.
The question that I have for Sandy is this: Sandy,… WHY do you so vehemently cling to the NEED to believe that regardless how BADLY one behaves, if one “proclaims Jesus” one is guaranteed salvation?
The reason I (personally) would like clarification about this is:
- Do you actually believe this?
- What do you mean by “proclaiming Jesus” (considering yourself worth saving by having “some sort” of relationship with Jesus)?
- Is it possible to you to lose salvation, once you’ve done (in the past) whatever it is that “proves” that you’re worthy of salvation?
I don’t believe that you believe that if you’re evil you can still go to heaven.
I don’t believe that you think that “doing good” is a bad thing, or even an unnecessary thing,… as I’m sure we both agree that doing good deeds simply HAPPENS when we are listening to Jesus.
Where am I wrong?
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
M
Milliardo
Guest
This is always a funny question that comes up; my retort is always simple: do you deny God will judge us by our works, and not by faith alone? Then go read Matthew 25:31ff, Romans 2:5-8, Revelation 20:11-15. These are just some of the Judgment scenes in the Bible (there are a few others scattered around). Go back here and explain to us then why you don’t believe in God judging us by our works when it is plain and simple He will.
In case you missed out on something, Paul’s “works” here are “works of the Law”, not good works. The two are different.
K
Keikiolu
Guest
Why did they do evil?
Because they were not hearing Jesus, and did what THEY wanted to do.
Where these people “religious people”?
No. They were “self serving”, hop on the latest “COOL prophet” bandwagon.
They called Jesus “Lord” for the same reason that they called any wielder of power Lord. To curry favor, and gain personal advantage over things of the world (ie their “brothers”).
The point is that they DIDN’T think they were doing the will of the Father, they WEREN’T being “DELUDED”, they were trying to delude (the people, apostles, and even Jesus).
They were only interested in “running with the cool kids”, playing the “I’m religious!” card, and sucking up to the apparent “magical” power-guy (Jesus),… just like the Pharisees. They were hoping that they’d be “the New Pharisees” in the “New Messiah’s Kingdom on Earth”.
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
K
Keikiolu
Guest
Heck no…!!
Do you believe that NOT doing (good) works is acceptable to God?
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
K
Keikiolu
Guest
That section of Romans is about a REMNANT being preserved by God by grace, regardless of that remnant’s behavior (“works”, in this case BAD works), because God is commited to never allowing the whole NATION to perish.
How does this apply to individuals?
Regardless of your actions (good or bad “works”) God will perpetually OFFER His grace, which you are free to either accept of reject, so that you may be saved (if you accept it).
Bad works do not cancel out the OFFER of salvation by God, until one’s death, but does ensure that if the offer is not eventually accepted at the time of death, one will not be saved.
Good works do not ensure that God will save you if the OFFER of salvation is not accepted at the time of death, but they are the natural result of accepting the offer of salvation, and can’t help being done by a person of true faith.
Works do not “cancel out” grace. If they did, no good deeds would ever be done.
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
K
Keikiolu
Guest
It’s fine to have “peace with God”, but that’s not a finishing point, it’s a starting point.
Once we have peace, we can truly act as Jesus wants us to.
We don’t just sit back and feel self-assured that we are saved and have no further responsibilities.
Peace with God is not a goal. It is a result, and it is a result that we use to “do God’s work” that we have been told to do.
What are you DOING with your “peace”…?
What does Jesus tell us to do WITH our peace?
“If anyone will not work, let him not eat.” (2Thes3:10)
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
B
Bishopite
Guest
What you may mean by “merit” isn’t what Catholicism teaches by merit. Merit comes from the Latin word “meritum” which means “reward” not strict earning which only Christ can do.
And it’s not a matter of doing X amount of work but having sanctifying grace upon our soul. God asks some to do more than others even your pastor was lead by God to do more, that’s why he went into the ministry. Read Luke 12:48 “Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.”
Again, it’s not a strict set standard that God sets for everyone for He calls some to sacrfice more than others for they have been given more. If you haven’t been given much, God doesn’t require much.
D
DLC
Guest
Many people often mention that the Bible never says we are saved by faith alone and that the phrase “faith alone” occurs only once in James where it says that we are not saved by faith alone. If this is so, then do some say we are justified by faith alone and not by works? Because the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith alone, and not by works.
The following is a list of verses about being saved by faith. Please take note that faith and works are contrasted. In other words, we are saved by faith “not by works” and “apart from works”, etc. The point is that there are only two options. We are saved by faith alone or we are not. Since we have faith and works (both conceptually and in practice), then we are either saved by faith alone or by faith and works. There is no other option.
If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone. Let’s take a look at what the Bible says about faith and works. Then, afterwards, we will tackle James’ statement about “faith alone”.
Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”
Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith.”
Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal.3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast.”
Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”
Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.
The following is a list of verses about being saved by faith. Please take note that faith and works are contrasted. In other words, we are saved by faith “not by works” and “apart from works”, etc. The point is that there are only two options. We are saved by faith alone or we are not. Since we have faith and works (both conceptually and in practice), then we are either saved by faith alone or by faith and works. There is no other option.
If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone. Let’s take a look at what the Bible says about faith and works. Then, afterwards, we will tackle James’ statement about “faith alone”.
Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”
Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith.”
Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal.3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast.”
Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”
Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.
D
DLC
Guest
James 2:24, not by faith alone
The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”
There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, “What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn’t any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.
Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, “and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’” If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.
The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”
There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, “What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn’t any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.
Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, “and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’” If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.
T
Truthstalker
Guest
This whole argument is semantic in nature. To the Catholic, justification includes sanctification. A living faith is a continual faith that will continue to obey, that will continue justification past initial justification. A life of faith is not five minutes at the altar and then a free ride; the life of faith begins then, often, and then is challenged concerning perseverance and obedience. I do not believe it is coincidental that the Greek words for “faith”, “faithful” and “obedient” are so closely interrelated. It is one concept.
- Status