"Works" Salvation?

[apophasis]

Have you not read 1 Cor 6:9-11"Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Have you not read that the justified in Christ DO?

Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

That’s right. But true believers are called “saints.” They’re not listed amongst the above. That’s why Paul goes on to say:“And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).These DO inherit the kingdom according to the GRACE of God in Christ Jesus, having been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of Christ and in the Spirit of their God. Are you one them? Or are you trying to justify yourself?

And can you show me in Scripture where God abolished the ten commandments??

The “Ten Commandments” were an integral part of the old covenant, the Mosaic Law given to Israel at Mt. Sinai. Paul emphatically states that the Apostles are “servants of a new covenant,” not of the letter, but of the Spirit; FOR THE LETTER KILLS, but THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

He goes on to call those “letters engraved on stones” the “ministry of death” and the “ministry of condemnation.” Why? Because all those commandents could ever do is condemn. No one could keep them then and, don’t deceive yourself, buddy, you can’t keep them now. If you’re going to live by them you must live them perfectly. You can’t. Their purpose was never meant to save anyone, but as a “tutor” to lead to Christ that one might be “justified BY FAITH” (Gal. 3:24).

Those “letters engraved on stones” had glory in their day, but they have no glory on account of the glory of the new covenant, in Christ’s cleansing blood, that surpasses it. A covenant entered into BY FAITH ALONE (2 Cor. 3:1-11).

 

[apophasis]

ARE YOU SAYING THAT WE ARE NOT FULLY BAPTISED INTO GRACE WHEN WE ARE BAPTISED IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT? THE TRINITY?

If you do not answer I will take that as a yes from your silence.

Dessert

“For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…” (not baptism). Multitutes are baptized and never personally believe.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Four times makes it so? An interesting hermeneutic, and using it to appeal to 2 Cor 2:10 to support your position, causes me no wonder.

Also, the command of Christ to the apostles at the Last Supper was do this in remembrance of me, it was not transubstantiate this bread, and this wine; again, your free-form hermeneutic misleads you.

With respect to transubstantiation, it is irrational, and it is based upon a man’s philosophy, ie., word-wisdom.

God is not a God of confusion, neither is He a God of irrationality, and neither does He want His people to be fooled by man’s word-wisdom.

Therefore, whenever God, in history, performed a miracle, God’s miracle was observable; that is how God’s people knew that God had done it.

Transubstantiation is not observable, and therefore, it must be taken on faith; but faith in God is based on reason, not unobservable word-wisdom.

Remind me again, why is protestantism God’s will?

 

[Church_Militant]

[SIGN]AMEN! And this is where RCism falls short of the gospel. It keeps its devotees bound to law prohibiting them from entering fully into grace.[/SIGN]“It was for freedom that Christ set up free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be a subject again to a yoke of slavery” (Gal. 5:1)

This is propaganda and nothing more.

The Catholic Church does not teach what you anti-Catholics (and yes that is what I am calling you because you maintain an allegation in the face of all evidence and discussion to the contrary; making no sincere effort to understand) have alleged.

My brothers and sisters here have worked very hard to make you and Sandusky (and others) understand yet it becomes apparent that you only want a platform to reiterate a-C propaganda.

Eternal Security/OSAS as propagated by many n-Cs is not taught in the Bible nor is it found in the historically verifiable teachings of the early church, therefore Catholics reject it.

The belief that one cannot lose one’s salvation as propagated by many n-Cs is not taught in the Bible nor is it found in the historically verifiable teachings of the early church, therefore Catholics reject it.

The belief that works have no merit of affect on a person’s salvation as propagated by many n-Cs is not taught in the Bible nor is it found in the historically verifiable teachings of the early church, therefore Catholics reject it.

Which part of this do you not understand? The point is that if you choose to disagree, that is on your own souls and out of our control.

I personally don’t think any of you are that dense, so this is my last entry on this thread, but I suspect that this thread has run it’s course and is now just a waste of time.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Odell]

Originally Posted by sandusky
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them {Laws} shall live by them.”[/indent]IOW, if you are going to live by the law, any law, instead of living by grace/faith alone, you will be guilty of the whole law, if you stumble in one small part of the law (cf Jas 2:10; Mt 5:48).

The correct understanding of this is critical.

[SIGN]AMEN! And this is where RCism falls short of the gospel. It keeps its devotees bound to law prohibiting them from entering fully into grace.[/SIGN]“It was for freedom that Christ set up free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be a subject again to a yoke of slavery” (Gal. 5:1)

Im sorry apophasis is giving to the poor considered part of the law that Jesus set us free?

Again is given to the poor makeing us subject again to slavery?

I expect an answer to this.

And what is the gospel mesage? I thought it was to believe in Jesus and do as he tought.

 

[Odell]

I am affraid you do not understand what it means to be free from the law

Ill let Christerpher West explain this to you

[Christopher West Book Theology of the body for beginners pg 40]
“Most people look at Christian morality-especially sexual morality-as an oppressive list of rules to follow. How far this misunderstanding is from the living morality proclaimed by Christ! The Gospel dosen’t give us more rules to follow. The Gospel is meant to change our hearts so that we no longer need the rules(see cathichsm 1968) To the degree that we experince this change of heart we experience freedom from the law(Rom7;Gal 5) not freedom to break the law; freedom to fullfill it.”
"Heres an example of what freedom from the law looks like: Do you have any desire to murder your best friend? This may seem like an odd question, but it actually demonstrate the point. Assuming you do not, then you dont need that comandment. Thou shall not murder thy best friend. Because you have no desire to break it. To this extent you are free from the law. In other words, you don’t experience this law as an imposition because your heart conforms to it.

before original sin the human heart comformed to Gods. that is what Christ came back for to show us how to conform our will to his. and the Church is there to help

one last thing
When we allow Chist into our hearts we no longer need the law because we no longer desire to break them. What law do you still need? What teachings of the Church still feel like a burdan or impostion to you? Perhaps the problem isn’t the law or the Church, but with your “hardness of heart” dont throw away the law surender your disordered desires to Christ and let him transform them.

we are not the ones who are not entering fully into his Grace

We are not bound to the Law we fullfill it.

You think you might be geting it now?

 

[dcdurel]

Which part of this do you not understand? The point is that if you choose to disagree, that is on your own souls and out of our control.

I personally don’t think any of you are that dense, so this is my last entry on this thread, but I suspect that this thread has run it’s course and is now just a waste of time.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

I agree that the Catholic positions are clear and reasonable.

I think the problem is the Protestants are taught to put their faith in the teachings, of Luther and Calvin and those teachings of their religion that originate from Luther and Calvin but are handed down in their tradition today, such as faith alone and scripture alone. And they lock on to theses teachings like a leech, as if they came from God himself, and not from Luther and Calvin.

Catholics are taught to put their faith in Jesus, who said that we MUST listen to His Church, that is, we must listen to those to whom Jesus put in authority in His Church and we must believe the Gospel that the leaders of His Church taught and preached (Mark 16:16).

Luther and Calvin say essentially that Jesus is wrong. According to them, we don’t have to listen to the teaching authorities in His Church. Instead everyone can make up his own Gospel. Thus, they are taught their Gospel, based on faith alone and scripture alone, as interpreted by each denomination and by every individual, which leads to millions of different beliefs, even within each denomination. When their personal interpretation does not conform to the Gospel the apostles handed down to the bishops of the Catholic Church, the same Gospel taught today, then the Protestant concludes, ha!, see the Catholic Church is wrong! And of course, so is every other Christian that does not agree with them.

If they don’t believe Jesus when He said to believe the Gospel His Church taught and preached, they won’t believe us today, no matter how clear and reasonable we present this Gospel today.

Thus, it seems to me, to be a problem of faith, either faith in Luther, Calvin and their teachings of Scripture alone as handed down by their religious leaders,

or faith in Jesus who said to listen to His Church.

Faith in the teachings of Luther and Calvin cannot save anyone. It is only faith in Jesus, who said to listen to His Church through which we can have salvation.

Of course they will deny that their faith is in the teachings of Luther and Calvin, then at the same time lock on these same teachings and refuse to let go.

But Jesus never taught that salvation comes from simply reading the Gospels the apostles wrote, but from believing the Gospel that the leaders of His Church taught and preached. Jesus said
“Preach the Gospel to all nations, he who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16) Thus we must believe the Gospel His Church taught and preached to be saved.

And it is a historical fact that the early Christians who learned from these apostles believed teachings which are the exact same teachings His Church teaches today. The Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, etc. were Catholic. The letters of Paul to the Romans were written to Catholics. Those written to the Corinthians were written to the Catholics in Corinth, those written to the Hebrews and Galatians were written to Catholics. The Peter and Paul were Catholic. Peter and Paul were not Protestant.
The Christians in the New Testament were not Protestant, but Catholic. Because they all learned the Gospel from the apostles, and not from Luther and Calvin who made up scripture alone.
This is all historical fact.

The** apostles** appointed CATHOLIC bishops as their successors. The bishops did not appoint themselves.
Again, historical fact. How did these bishops learn the Catholic faith? From the apostles. The apostles were Catholic. How the did the apostles learn the Catholic faith? From Jesus Christ Himself. The Gospel Jesus taught was the Catholic faith. That is why the apostles were Catholic and their successors, the bishops, were Catholic. Protestantism did not come from Jesus, or the apostles, or their successors. Faith alone and scripture alone came from Luther and Calvin in the 1500’s, not from Jesus and the apostles. The successors the apostles appointed were Catholic bishops, not Protestant bishops.

Thus, “faith alone” and “scripture alone” are not teachings of Jesus, or the apostles, or the Catholic bishops they appointed.

“Faith alone” and “scripture alone” are teachings of Luther and Calvin, NOT Peter and Paul who were Catholic, and thus not the teachings of Jesus.

 

[DLC]

Here is question for any one.
James 2:26 indicates that apart from the spirit, the body is dead, right?

By analogy, is it not clear that apart from the evidence of good works, faith is dead?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Either the followers of Luther and Calvin are wrong or Christ is wrong? Which do protestants agree with more.

There are no ifs, ands, or buts to the argument.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Here is question for any one.
James 2:26 indicates that apart from the spirit, the body is dead, right?

By analogy, is it not clear that apart from the evidence of good works, faith is dead?

Its very clear in the bible. Need more prove than that?! Or are you questioning the scriptures?

 

[DLC]

One person said this: “Faith in the teachings of Luther and Calvin cannot save anyone. It is only faith in Jesus, who said to listen to His Church through which we can have salvation.”

The Bible clearly tells us that we are saved by grace through faith, Eph 2:8-9. Jesus tells us in John 3:16 that if one believes in Him the will not perish but have everlasting life. It would be clear from these passage that when one has faith in Christ he is saved.

Here is a question. It was also mentioned that from this person that Jesus told us to listen to the church through which salvation comes. Read theses verses.
Acts 4:12
12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
NASU

John 6:47
7 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
NASU

It would seem clear that salvation is in Christ and not in a church. No verse in the Bible tells us that salvation come through any church. If so what verse says that? What verse tells us that we are to get our interpretation for the Bible from any church? None.

 

[guanophore]

Now did Moses get saved too? Why?

What do you think?

Dessert

I am sure Moses is saved, because God said He would save him, and because he appeared to Jesus on the mount:
" And there appeared to them Eli’jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus". Mark 9:3-5

I imagine that he was saved by grace, through faith!

 

[guanophore]

12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them {Laws} shall live by them.”[/indent]IOW, if you are going to live by the law, any law, instead of living by grace/faith alone, you will be guilty of the whole law, if you stumble in one small part of the law (cf Jas 2:10; Mt 5:48).

The correct understanding of this is critical.

[SIGN]AMEN! And this is where RCism falls short of the gospel. It keeps its devotees bound to law prohibiting them from entering fully into grace.[/SIGN]“It was for freedom that Christ set up free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be a subject again to a yoke of slavery” (Gal. 5:1)

Apo, this constant bashing at the teaching of the church is getting more and more concerning. At first, I thought it was just that you were ignorant of the teachings. But, in reading this thread and others, it seems clear that you have been corrected repeatedly on your misunderstandings of the teachings. Your stubborn refusal to accept this correction represents a rebellion and hostility. It borders on a violation of the forum rules, by making it appear that you are trying to pull Catholics away from their faith, and to promote your own private agenda to bash the teachings.

Sandusky, the same goes for you, as you again repeat here erroneously that one should “live by grace alone” implying that no effort is required on the part of the believer to participate in the attainment of holiness. Both of you quote the scriptures out of context, and fail to take the WHOLE of the teachings, and accept the guidance of the church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”

“You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is dead?” (James 2:20)

Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”

“You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)

Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast.”

“For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” (Ephesians 2:10)

Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Philemon 2:12)

 

[apophasis]

Im sorry apophasis is giving to the poor considered part of the law that Jesus set us free?

Again is given to the poor makeing us subject again to slavery?

I expect an answer to this.

The point being, you cannot enter salvation through the efforts of any king of law keeping - of ANY kind. This would include the Ten Commandments. “For by grace you have been saved through FAITH…not as a result of works.”

And what is the gospel mesage?

Jn. 3:14-18.

I thought it was to believe in Jesus and do as he tought.

Through the teachings of men that is what it evolved into. But based on God’s Word alone (which does not change) there is no “and” after the word “believe.” “Do” is not an added condition but a natural consequence of those “created in Christ Jesus” for those good works.

Giving to the poor is not a condition on which salvation hinges. You may* freely* give but not as a condition for salvation or it is no longer an act of love, but an act of obedience to law. And by the works of law no flesh will be jusified in His sight (Rom. 3:20).

 

[Sean_Boyle]

One person said this: “Faith in the teachings of Luther and Calvin cannot save anyone. It is only faith in Jesus, who said to listen to His Church through which we can have salvation.” HIS CHURCH is the Catholic Church. You made the point by quoting someone else.

The Bible clearly tells us that we are saved by grace through faith, Eph 2:8-9. Jesus tells us in John 3:16 that if one believes in Him the will not perish but have everlasting life. It would be clear from these passage that when one has faith that preserves to the end in Christ he is saved.

Here is a question. It was also mentioned that from this person that Jesus told us to listen to the church through which salvation comes. Read theses verses.
Acts 4:12
12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
NASU

John 6:47
7 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
NASU

It would seem clear that salvation is in Christ and not in a church. No verse in the Bible tells us that salvation come through any church. If so what verse says that? What verse tells us that we are to get our interpretation for the Bible from any church? None.

Agreed! That being said…
Come home to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, Christ’s present here on earth, as promised by Christ.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It would seem clear that salvation is in Christ and not in a church. No verse in the Bible tells us that salvation come through any church. If so what verse says that? What verse tells us that we are to get our interpretation for the Bible from any church? None.

You seek to create a dichotomy where none exists. Yes, it is clear that salvation is in Christ, but are Christ and His Church really separate?

The Church is the Body of Christ
“Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. (Acts 9:6)

(Paul was actually persecuting the Church)

And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. (Ephesians 1:22-23)

The Church Speaks for Christ
He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me. (Luke 10:16)

Personal Interpretation of Scripture Condemned
Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, (1 Peter 1:20)

[Paul] writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16)

Let’s be intellectually honest and admit that Jesus was speaking in the passages above to the Apostles who were the first Bishops of the Catholic Church.

Additionally, we can see from the verses above that the Church is the Body of Christ and speaks for Christ.

Further, scripture itself condemns personal interpretation of scripture because people will distort (misinterpret) it to their own destruction.

Now therefore, perhaps you might tell us where scripture claims that the Bible alone is the sole infallible rule of faith for the beleiver or that your own personal interpretation of the Bible is infallible.

A verse or two, if you please.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Through the teachings of men that is what it evolved into

Horsefeathers.

Luke 10:16
He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.

You seem to forget that it is Christ Himself who has built the Church which you reject.

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Who built the Church? Christ!

And by the Holy Spirit, He has led the Church into all truth.

But this is the stuff of another thread.

 

[sandusky]

Odell:

I am affraid you do not understand what it means to be free from the law

Actually, I do, Paul’s lays it out clearly in Romans 7. Romans 7:22-25

22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Odell:

one last thing
When we allow Chist into our hearts we no longer need the law because we no longer desire to break them. What law do you still need? What teachings of the Church still feel like a burdan or impostion to you? Perhaps the problem isn’t the law or the Church, but with your “hardness of heart” dont throw away the law surender your disordered desires to Christ and let him transform them.

Ooooooooo…I’ve got ten demerits points toward offing me from the forum for saying two things far more charitable than that. :tsktsk:

 

[sandusky]

Milliardo:

And yet you implied as much, and now backtrack?

Where?

Milliardo:

Ah, are we going to go through that again? I have made it perfectly clear–doing good is not equal to doing works of the Law. Neither Jesus nor Paul implied that. It seems though that you confine that to the Law–something Jesus never intended.

Christ said that the law and prophets depend on the two commandments he had given; he said that, because He had been accused of trying to abolish the law, and He was ensuring that no one misunderstood Him concerning that (cf Mt 5:17; Dt. 6:5; Lev 19:18). The moral law has not been abolished.

You should know that, as your system has as its centerpiece a sacrament of sacrifice, in which, the sacrifice of Calvary is re-presented to the Father in a ritual said to be propitiatory.

Furthermore, there is the elaborate ritual of the sacrament of reconciliation, and penance.

It seems your Church understands the necessity, and the difficulty of keeping the law perfectly—a difficulty that you downplay—by providing a means of forgiveness, and reconciliation.

Milliardo:

Hhmm…so now you agree on this. That is good; so why the objection then on a salvation hinged on faith and works if you agree on this one?

You’ve read my statement eisegetically, and have taken a wrong inference.