"Works" Salvation?

[OneForTruth]

Nowhere does it discuss being saved by “believing in Jesus.” The sheep enter into the blessings of heaven by their actions, and the goats damned to hell by their inactions.

In another thread, I used the analogy of the Dead Sea. It is fed by the fresh water of the Jordan River, but it is salty and cannot sustain life. Why? because there is no outlet. So to in the Christian life. God gives us his graces, but inless we allow them to flow through us, we too, are dead.

You need to read all of what I wrote in my posting. I did indicate from scripture that we are saved by faith that works by love which is very clear from scripture. Notice it is my faith working and also notice that my faith is not even of my own self but a gift given by God. Our works flow from our faith and show who we are. That is why you have scriptures like Matthew 12:33…The tree must be good and then the fruit will be good…you cannot separate genuine faith (which is the gift of God) from the works no more than you can separate the works of Christ from whom He really was…I see that alot here…people saying we are saved by our works - BUT - it must be remembered that our works are characteristic of who we are and show that we have faith - and by that faith we are justified…

Matthew 12:33 "***Either make the tree good ***and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; **for the tree is known by its fruit.**34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
35 "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

Our works are those that flow from genuine faith…

John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

That is what it means in James when it says that we are justified by our works - our works SHOW that the tree is good and not corrupt. Out works show that we are the genuine children of the Father and He is thereby glorified.

What about the hypocrites who are striving according to the flesh to earn salvation by external works where they are really hollow nothings. There are the true children of God out there are there are those that are tares…

Mt 13:24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26 "But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27 "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
28 "And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
29 “But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

By tares is probably meant a degenerate kind of wheat, or the darnel grass growing in Palestine. In its growth and form it has a strong resemblance to genuine wheat. But it either produces no grain, or that of a very inferior and hurtful kind. Probably it comes near to what we mean by chess. It was extremely difficult to separate it from the genuine wheat, on account of its similarity while growing. Thus it aptly represented hypocrites in the church. Strongly resembling Christians in their experience, and, in some respects, their lives, it is impossible to distinguish them from genuine Christians, nor can they be separated until it is done by the great Searcher of hearts at the day of judgment.: An enemy–the devil–hath done it. And nowhere has he shown profounder cunning, or done more to adulterate the purity of the gospel,

I will also remind you that election of the elect was performed before the foundation of the world…before any of us ever did anything good or bad…

Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls…15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”

The election of the elect is purely by grace and not by works…

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

God Be With Us…

 

[Linkowski]

Ani Ibi - Thank you for your post - please know that I have made a decision to study the Catholic teaching on justification as well as the Protestant position and have opened up in that regard. Please pray for me.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

By tares is probably meant a degenerate kind of wheat, or the darnel grass growing in Palestine. In its growth and form it has a strong resemblance to genuine wheat. But it either produces no grain, or that of a very inferior and hurtful kind. Probably it comes near to what we mean by chess. It was extremely difficult to separate it from the genuine wheat, on account of its similarity while growing. Thus it aptly represented hypocrites in the church. Strongly resembling Christians in their experience, and, in some respects, their lives, it is impossible to distinguish them from genuine Christians, nor can they be separated until it is done by the great Searcher of hearts at the day of judgment.: An enemy–the devil–hath done it. And nowhere has he shown profounder cunning, or done more to adulterate the purity of the gospel

, Hi, Thank you for the education. I have never heard this quite this way but it makes sense:thumbsup:

:yup:

Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls…15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”

I just studied Romans chapter 9 last week and am tring to wrap my mind around this concept. I think I am starting to understand as best I can as a human. As a human this is not part of biblical truths that I enjoy talking about.

The election of the elect is purely by grace and not by works…

AMEN!!

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Although we have not hit on this in bible study yet—we did talk alot about the remnant being Israel and that not all Jews will be saved but a remnant and it is purely by God’s Grace. Predestination is a rough topic. Not meant for this thread sorry----back to topic:thumbsup:
God Be With Us…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Linkowski:

Prewritten prayers, statues, sacraments, lent, repetative prayer, - do this do that for salvation…you cannot orchestrate it. You take the very heart out of Christianity and the person just becomes an instrument that the Church plays - a dead instrument. That is exactly what I was.

Oh Linkowski, Linkowski. How unfortunate that everything is up for grabs in OSAS-land. Has being Once Saved Always Saved removed the fear of error from those souls? Anything goes? Everything up for grabs?

Were you Catholic? If you were Catholic, then you know:

• that prewritten prayers remove the temptation toward soulishness from prayers; are a way of uniting us not only geographically but historically with our brothers and sisters in Christ; remove the ‘I’ from ‘we’; unite us in prayer with the saints;
• that statues were a way of preaching the Gospel to a Church which was over 90% illiterate throughout the many centuries before the Gutenburg Press when Bibles were more precious than gold;
  If you know these things, then why do you attempt to cast aspersions on them? If you do not know them, then without further hesitation, do you not think that it is your human responsibility to know them before casting further aspersions. Is this unfair? Is it unreasonable?

The tree is known by its fruit. I am only recommending that the fruit of your position be fairness and reasonableness.

The dead instrument, my friend, is a soul in rebellion.

The dead instrument is a soul which has become a rock and an island unto itself, cut off from the Church Fathers, the Martyrs, the Saints, the Apostles, the little people who can’t read English or who can’t read at all – cut off from challenge; cut off from correction; cut off from the joy and freedom that comes when self-sufficiency and self-righteousness end; cut off from the Church which Jesus Himself established – the Church, Linkowski, the Church – not the supremacy of the individual.

The dead instrument is a soul which plucks away at the imagined mote in the eyes of others and cannot see the obvious for the log in his own.

The dead instrument is Sisyphus rolling the rock up the hill – or starting a thread from first premises having conceded those same premises on a prior thread.



Not necessarily talking about you. To those who lurk. To those who have an ear to spare. Maybe even to myself. Who knows?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Ani Ibi - Thank you for your post - please know that I have made a decision to study the Catholic teaching on justification as well as the Protestant position and have opened up in that regard. Please pray for me.

I will pray for you, Linkowski.

There are incredible Catholic scholars on this forum. Ask for good links. There is so much sound insight out there. Abundance. So many second chances. God never ceases to amaze me with His graciousness, His willingness to see the best in me when all I have shown Him is the worst.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

The article confused me a bit. It said that the three types of baptism are 1. by water 2. by desire 3. by blood

 

[ALLFORHIM]

 

[RNRobert]

I will also remind you that election of the elect was performed before the foundation of the world…before any of us ever did anything good or bad…

Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls…15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”

The election of the elect is purely by grace and not by works…

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

God Be With Us…

So do you believe in predestination? If predestination is true, then why bother to do good works if we are already predestined to heaven, since we can’t help being saved? If we are predestined to Hell, then we might as well live like the devil and enjoy this world since we’re gonna burn in the next one anyway no matter what we do. And I always find it interesting that the ones who believe in predestination are also sure their names are on the heavenly roll.
I like what G.K. Chesterton said of the Calvinistic concept of predestination, he called it “the last lie in Hell.”

He also said this:

"The difference between puritanism and Catholicism is not about whether some priestly word or gesture is significant and sacred. It is about whether any word is significant and sacred. To the Catholic every other daily act is a dramatic dedication to the service of good or evil. To the Calvinist no act can have that sort of solemnity, because the person doing it has been dedicated from eternity, and is merely filling up his time until the crack of doom. …the difference is that to a Christian of my kind this sort of earthly life is intensely thrilling and precious; to a calvinist… it is confessedly automatic and uninteresting. To me these three score and ten are the battle, to the calvinist they are only a long procession of the victors and vanquished. To me earthly life is the drama; to [the calvinist] it is the epilogue.

 

[guanophore]

What baptism do you think the thief could have possibly “desired,” since it wasn’t until after Christ’s own death and bodily resurrection did He give the command to His Apostles to now baptize believers "in the the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit?" How could he have “desired” a baptism that did not yet exist?

This doctrine of “baptism of desire” is formed by men out of necessity because of their belief in salvation through baptism. It is doctrine based on rationalism, not divine revelation.

At least John’s baptism, surely?

Matt 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance”

or do you deny that he was repentant?

Do you think that Jesus had his disciples using John’s baptism, before the great commission?

John 4:1-2
4:1 Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2(although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples)…"

Would He just train them to do it the right way from the beginning, even if they did not understand about the Trinity?

If baptism is man made, why did God send John to baptize? Why did Jesus teach HIs disciples to baptize, and command them to do it?

Don’t you think this expression indicates a strong desire for baptism? Luke 12:50 “I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!”

If the baptism of desire comes to us out of the mouth of Jesus, how can you say it is man made?

 

[guanophore]

Hi,
The article confused me a bit. It said that the three types of baptism are

1. by water
2. by desire
3. by blood

Then the article said the first one is the only one that matters UNLESS a person cannot(for whatever reason)get baptized by water.

I thought baptism by blood was referring to the blood Jesus shed on the cross for us and baptism by blood was when a person believed in Christ and what He did for us on the cross.

So what I took from the article was that you dont even have to have belief as long as you are baptized by water, That is just silly
I just went back to reread it and is it saying that the water baptism GIVES or INFUSES the belief of Christ in you? Im sorry Im just having a difficult time with this concept and trying to clearly understand it.

Catholics believe that it is only by the grace of God that human beings seek Him at all: John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;” We can make a choice to respond to that grace, but even our ability to respond comes from grace. All of the sacraments convey, or infuse grace.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

If the baptism of desire comes to us out of the mouth of Jesus, how can you say it is man made?

Does apophasis even know what Baptism of Desire is?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Catholics believe that it is only by the grace of God that human beings seek Him at all: John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;”

Not sure how I feel about this one. I havent studied grace enough to make an informed decision.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

If the baptism of desire comes to us out of the mouth of Jesus, how can you say it is man made?

I think that is what we would question. Where did Jesus say this? I dont think He did. I have not found it in the bible anywhere, that is why I asked where it came from.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Not sure how I feel about this one. I havent studied grace enough to make an informed decision.

Ha ha! Guess what your homework is!

I was taught that I should seek out the sacraments, those for which I qualify, as often as I can. That the sacraments strengthen us for our journey in the world. This strength I believe is grace.

Take communion for example. I don’t earn communion; communion strengthens me not to sin. I can still sin because, no matter what, I always have free will. But why would I forgo communion because I preferred sinning?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

ALLFORHIM:

I think that is what we would question. Where did Jesus say this? I dont think He did. I have not found it in the bible anywhere, that is why I asked where it came from.

Have you read the links I gave you yet?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Ha ha! Guess what your homework is!

I was taught that I should seek out the sacraments, those for which I qualify, as often as I can. That the sacraments strengthen us for our journey in the world. This strength I believe is grace.

Take communion for example. I don’t earn communion; communion strengthens me not to sin. I can still sin because, no matter what, I always have free will. But why would I forgo communion because I preferred sinning?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Have you read the links I gave you yet?

You gave me links? I read someone who gave me a link. Was it you or did I miss it. Im hungry and it is close to dinner time.:whacky: I’m actually leaving soon to take my daughter out for her Bday. Yes today is her Bday NO JOKE.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

You gave me links? I read someone who gave me a link. Was it you or did I miss it. Im hungry and it is close to dinner time.:whacky: I’m actually leaving soon to take my daughter out for her Bday. Yes today is her Bday NO JOKE.

The red bold text with underlines is linked material. quite a bit of linked material as a matter of fact. Happy b-day to whomever.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The red bold text with underlines is linked material. quite a bit of linked material as a matter of fact. Happy b-day to whomever.

Ok thanks:thumbsup: Thank you for the Bday wish. My daughter is 14:bigyikes: :bigyikes:

Lord HELP ME

 

[OneForTruth]

So do you believe in predestination? If predestination is true, then why bother to do good works if we are already predestined to heaven, since we can’t help being saved? If we are predestined to Hell, then we might as well live like the devil and enjoy this world since we’re gonna burn in the next one anyway no matter what we do. And I always find it interesting that the ones who believe in predestination are also sure their names are on the heavenly roll.
I like what G.K. Chesterton said of the Calvinistic concept of predestination, he called it “the last lie in Hell.”

He also said this:

Predestination is in scripture and I, therefore, believe in it. Why bother?? - because He that called me has called me to be holy…

1 Peter 1:15 KJV 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

I have been bought with a price - therefore I must glorify God in my body.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJV 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

It seems to me that, based on your message (specifically referring to “why bother?”) that we are supposed to be working our way to heaven. I mean, why bother doing good works if you are predesitined or chosen before the foundation of the world? Are you doing works to earn heaven? That is what this very thread has spoken against. Empty yourself of your own righteousness in that case, repent, and turn to Christ as Lord and Savior. His merit is my merit.

Romans 10:3 KJV 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

So, then - I say - I bother because Christ bothered to die for me. He was not forced to do it…I mean, why bother, Jesus?? Because He loved us so much. And I love Him because He first loved me.

May God Show Us Truth…