Works without faith?

[TimothyIgnatius]

I know most are probably familiar with the Protestant-associated idea of faith without works, but what about works without faith? In hypotheticals, what if someone found Jesus of Nazareth to be the ideal role model (and thusly strived to live their lives as Jesus would have) but could not subscribe themselves to any sort of divinity? More or less, an agnostic who makes efforts to help the poor, feed the hungry, heal the sick, and espousing love and forgiveness. Are there any Church teachings or documents related to such a topic?

 

[shaky]

I know most are probably familiar with the Protestant-associated idea of faith without works, but what about works without faith? In hypotheticals, what if someone found Jesus of Nazareth to be the ideal role model (and thusly strived to live their lives as Jesus would have) but could not subscribe themselves to any sort of divinity? More or less, an agnostic who makes efforts to help the poor, feed the hungry, heal the sick, and espousing love and forgiveness. Are there any Church teachings or documents related to such a topic?

Scripture does show we are Justified by Faith Apart from Works. Faith has to come first before one can do the Works of Faith.
I don’t think any reformed protestant are not doing any works of faith.

If you look at all forms of religion or outside religion. People follow what they believe which is their works of faith.
The only way you can have works without faith is when one is forced to do things that they do not believe in.

Scripture shows anything not of Faith is Sin.

Does that mean a agnostic or atheist that help the poor. feed the hungry etc are sinning ?

 

[3WXPAT]

Hello Brother,

In my humble opinion based from the general teachings of the Church through my years of readings/faith-research, there is no such thing as “works without faith” in a literal sense. The Church teaches that even those who did not knew Jesus and the Good news but do good works (read: CHARITY) are justified drb.scripturetext.com/james/2.htm.

If you know Jesus and the Good News, but do CHARITY for own personal gains, then that would be false. More so, if you do CHARITY, but do not believe Jesus and the Good News then you are somewhat in limbo since Jesus was and still is the one who practically says “do to others what you would like to be done unto you”. If you do works without faith, at what agenda are you into?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I know most are probably familiar with the Protestant-associated idea of faith without works, but what about works without faith? In hypotheticals, what if someone found Jesus of Nazareth to be the ideal role model (and thusly strived to live their lives as Jesus would have) but could not subscribe themselves to any sort of divinity? More or less, an agnostic who makes efforts to help the poor, feed the hungry, heal the sick, and espousing love and forgiveness. Are there any Church teachings or documents related to such a topic?

It is possible that such a person would in fact have (imperfect) faith in God and just not know it by name.

That is, to seek Truth, to act according to Love, and to value Justice and Mercy in their most perfect forms is to… seek God, act according to God’s nature, and to value God and, uh, God.

Now one might not realize that there is a Triune God who can be said to be such things and so that they are much more than ideas. But this is primarily an intellectual error and not an error of disposition towards God, who is Mercy, Justice, Love, and Truth whether I know it or not. And God is reaching out to me, offering His Grace and seeking my salvation whether I know it or not. So it seems that I may be able to respond to God’s seeking of me, whether I know this is what I am doing or not.

I would argue that it is at least possible to hope that such people are following God and responding to God’s grace, and hence allowing God to give them salvation, though of course it would be impossible to know in any individual case, and this would not lessen the necessity of evangelization since the normative means of salvation, the only means that we can be sure will work (if followed correctly), are is through the Sacraments within the visible Church.

 

[graciew]

What is it you are asking,if there can be Salvation through works without faith?
or did you mean to say works without love?
Cause faith without love…you kow the readings…

 

[TimothyIgnatius]

Hello Brother,

In my humble opinion based from the general teachings of the Church through my years of readings/faith-research, there is no such thing as “works without faith” in a literal sense. The Church teaches that even those who did not knew Jesus and the Good news but do good works (read: CHARITY) are justified drb.scripturetext.com/james/2.htm.

If you know Jesus and the Good News, but do CHARITY for own personal gains, then that would be false. More so, if you do CHARITY, but do not believe Jesus and the Good News then you are somewhat in limbo since Jesus was and still is the one who practically says “do to others what you would like to be done unto you”. If you do works without faith, at what agenda are you into?

I don’t think anyone needs an “agenda” to do acts of kindness. What if someone simply did it out of the kindness of their own heart? Being that they were compelled to be as selfless as possible.

With regards to Salvation, I don’t think that applies to my specific hypotheticals, as it would require at least some belief in Christ (or really any religion that has an element of salvation to it). But it would lead me to the question that, if a person is by all means good and charitable, but does not subscribe themselves to any specific belief in God (or gods. This hypothetical could apply to many, if not all, faiths), does that mean they are damned to hell for not acknowledging the Trinity? What is the Church teaching in this regard?

Iron Donkey, I found your post intriguing (well, all the posts were helpful and appreciated, many thanks and God bless!). I learned that, with regards to Church teachings on other religion’s sacred texts, that the good things in those texts and religions were done ‘through the mystery of Christ.’ There is something similar to that in what you said.

 

[3WXPAT]

I don’t think anyone needs an “agenda” to do acts of kindness. What if someone simply did it out of the kindness of their own heart? Being that they were compelled to be as selfless as possible.

With regards to Salvation… the question that, if a person is by all means good and charitable, but does not subscribe themselves to any specific belief in God or gods (this hypothetical could apply to many, if not all, faiths), does that mean they are damned to hell for not acknowledging the Trinity? What is the Church teaching in this regard?]

In clarification with the analogy using the word “agenda”, it would be clear to further enlighten ourselves of the “cause-effect” relationship.

Cause:Compelled to be as selfless as possible
Effect: Kindness of their own heart

or

Cause: Kindness of their own heart
Effect: Compelled to be as selfless as possible

The above relationship “needs” no knowing of Christ or the Gospel. Yet, we still go back to the Book of James.

With regards to salvation without knowing Christ, I think it would be a great help to search Church teachings about SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. No religion can save one’s soul. If one is really thirsty, indeed he desires a full glass of water, not half-filled.

Have faith brother and produce that faith. Godspeed.

 

[seeker_of_God]

Council of Orange II (529)

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).

CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him “unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:3).

CANON 9. Concerning the succor of God. It is a mark of divine favor when we are of a right purpose and keep our feet from hypocrisy and unrighteousness; for as often as we do good, God is at work in us and with us, in order that we may do so.

CANON 10. Concerning the succor of God. The succor of God is to be ever sought by the regenerate and converted also, so that they may be able to come to a successful end or persevere in good works.

CANON 12. Of what sort we are whom God loves. God loves us for what we shall be by his gift, and not by our own deserving.

CANON 16. No man shall be honored by his seeming attainment, as though it were not a gift, or suppose that he has received it because a missive from without stated it in writing or in speech. For the Apostle speaks thus, “For if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose” (Gal. 2:21); and “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men” (Eph. 4:8, quoting Ps. 68:18). It is from this source that any man has what he does; but whoever denies that he has it from this source either does not truly have it, or else “even what he has will be taken away” (Matt. 25:29).

CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.

CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?

CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.

CANON 22. Concerning those things that belong to man. No man has anything of his own but untruth and sin. But if a man has any truth or righteousness, it is from that fountain for which we must thirst in this desert, so that we may be refreshed from it as by drops of water and not faint on the way.

CANON 23. Concerning the will of God and of man. Men do their own will and not the will of God when they do what displeases him; but when they follow their own will and comply with the will of God, however willingly they do so, yet it is his will by which what they will is both prepared and instructed.

 

[cap76]

I know most are probably familiar with the Protestant-associated idea of faith without works, but what about works without faith? In hypotheticals, what if someone found Jesus of Nazareth to be the ideal role model (and thusly strived to live their lives as Jesus would have) but could not subscribe themselves to any sort of divinity? More or less, an agnostic who makes efforts to help the poor, feed the hungry, heal the sick, and espousing love and forgiveness. Are there any Church teachings or documents related to such a topic?

Hebrews 11.6, “without faith it is impossible to please [God], for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.”

 

[graciew]

Hebrews 11.6, “without faith it is impossible to please [God], for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.”

1 Corinthians 13:

1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues* but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

 

[Gorgias]

what if someone found Jesus of Nazareth to be the ideal role model (and thusly strived to live their lives as Jesus would have) but could not subscribe themselves to any sort of divinity? More or less, an agnostic who makes efforts to help the poor, feed the hungry, heal the sick, and espousing love and forgiveness. Are there any Church teachings or documents related to such a topic?

There are!

I don’t know whether you intended it to sound this way, but from what you wrote, it sounds a little like the teachings of Pelagius, who asserted that humans already had everything that they needed for salvation, and could get there on their own without God or without Christ. He taught that Christ was a good role model, but that was about it.

Augustine vigorously fought against the teachings of Pelagianism, and the Church agreed with Augustine. Perhaps this article might be of interest to you.

Blessings,

G.