World map of Marian apparitions

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bobperk said:
Sadly, the “demythologizing” is one of the factors that led me away from belief in these apparitions…when the Church itself allowed many of the traditional stories to be “debunked,” so to speak. If the Church can’t believe it, how can I ?
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You don’t prefer Truth? The fact that some medieval stories have turned out to be legends has nothing to do with the essential truths of the Faith.
 
Well, the rosary and scapular do not have the same effect for me when the Church as decided that they weren’t actually delivered by the Blessed Mother. Furthermore, were the Saints who started these devotions liars for saying they received them from Mary?

Let’s be honest, if it were true that the rosary was supernaturally delivered by the Blessed Mother, there’d be more reason to pray it.
 
If the supernatural association was the only reason you were attracted to the Rosary or the Scapular, then you probably shouldn’t pray it, because you’re not understanding what they are truly all about.

That’s a little weird that you think a supernatural association is a reason to pray the Rosary. It’s not a magic spell, it’s talking to God, using words that are in large part drawn from Scripture. It’s about as supernatural as the Bible, and it actually evolved from the recitation of the Psalms. I don’t need to have Mary appear and hand me a Bible for me to want to read Scripture, nor do I need a supernatural occurrence to motivate me to pray and talk to God.

The Brown Scapular is the layperson’s version of the habit of a particular religious order. One wears it because one identifies with the spirituality of the order, at least to some degree. Nothing supernatural about it.

You seem to be looking for some sort of magic to happen, not regarding these devotionals as good old ordinary plain vanilla prayer practices, which is what they are.
 
bobperk said:
Well, the rosary and scapular do not have the same effect for me when the Church as decided that they weren’t actually delivered by the Blessed Mother. Furthermore, were the Saints who started these devotions liars for saying they received them from Mary?

Let’s be honest, if it were true that the rosary was supernaturally delivered by the Blessed Mother, there’d be more reason to pray it.
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bobperk said:
Well, the rosary and scapular do not have the same effect for me when the Church as decided that they weren’t actually delivered by the Blessed Mother. Furthermore, were the Saints who started these devotions liars for saying they received them from Mary?
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No new evidence has arisen that proves the rosary and scapular were not given by Mary to some persons, around that time. How could any evidence prove that?
 
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I see what you’re saying. But also note the legend in this map. A vast majority of these are listed as unconfirmed by the church.

There has been an explosion of apparitions in the latter half of the last century, but very few have been approved.

I think that is more of a reflection of the signs of the times, but that doesn’t disqualify the validity and truth of church approved apparitions.
 
michaelArc said:
I see what you’re saying. But also note the legend in this map. A vast majority of these are listed as unconfirmed by the church.

There has been an explosion of apparitions in the latter half of the last century, but very few have been approved.

I think that is more of a reflection of the signs of the times, but that doesn’t disqualify the validity and truth of church approved apparitions.
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Not confirned does not mean the same as debunked. Although there will always be attention seekers and fraudsters who for whatever reason will claim to have seen apparition, it does not logically follow that every unnaproved apparation is a fraud.

It might also be that in view of the difficult times in which we live and the constant attacks on the Church and on its Faith, that Our Lady has more comforting to do.
 
Cirdan_XII said:
It might also be that in view of the difficult times in which we live and the constant attacks on the Church and on its Faith, that Our Lady has more comforting to do.
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Ok. But keep in mind most of the attacks on the Faith are attacks on Public Revelation, especially attacks on the teaching authority of bishops and Popes. Some “conservative” websites that keep promoting private Revelations, approved and otherwise, are also trashing half the bishops.

It’s possible one way Mary comforts people today is through us reading the Catechism and Scripture, by us listening more attentively to pope, bishop, and pastor.

Unfortunately that doesn’t satisfy many Catholics, who want more spectacular stuff.
 
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In the 1950s most Catholics were thoroughly grounded in public revelation. There were relatively few attacks on it. So Bishop Sheen would, on occasion make a point based on doctrine, then illustrate that argument by citing something from Fatima. It was safe to do that then, since misuse of private revelation was rare.

If Sheen were preaching and writing in 2019, with rampant ignorance and nonstop attacks on public revelation, I bet he wouldn’t mention any private revelation at all. He would direct his hearers towards the Catechism.
 
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michaelArc said:
I see what you’re saying. But also note the legend in this map. A vast majority of these are listed as unconfirmed by the church.
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First of all, the map is not 100 percent accurate with the information on the Miracle Hunter website. Edited because it appears they did make an effort to show the various levels of approval, but there are discrepancies with the website, in part because of how the website is set up. I have noticed this before when doing my own research on there.

Second of all, the Church does not choose to investigate or pronounce upon (positively or negatively) every purported apparition out there. Most of them, the Church just stays silent on. Quite a few of them are “approved for faith expression”, which the map doesn’t adequately capture IMHO. It captures the list that Miracle Hunter has made of “approved for faith expression”, but there would seem to be a few more “approved for faith expression” situations that Miracle Hunter has not yet put on its list.

Finally, you shouldn’t refer to the “validity and truth” of “church approved apparitions” because they are not part of the Deposit of Faith, and any good Catholic is free to just reject them and not pay attention to their message. Whether such apparitions are “true” is a matter of individual, personal belief. An individual can just as easily choose to believe in any apparition which the Church has approved for faith expression, or has canonized the saint, or has made “no decision” but has not issued a negative decision. The only ones that a Catholic must reject are the ones where the Church has investigated and issued a negative decision.
 
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commenter said:
Ok. But keep in mind most of the attacks on the Faith are attacks on Public Revelation, especially attacks on the teaching authority of bishops and Popes. Some “conservative” websites that keep promoting private Revelations, approved and otherwise, are also trashing half the bishops.
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One shouldn’t confuse those who are loud, ugly and manipulative with those who are the majority.

I would be happy to stand corrected, but i see no evidence that the majority of unapproved apparitions are connected to such divisive and political propaganda. Many that I have learnt about are just about a comforting story of Our Lady appearing to some individual to give them hope or healing and, over time, that place turning into an unofficial shrine where people come to pray. I guess that wherther or not the apparition actually happened (typically with the smaller ones it is just the word of mouth of one individual and there is nothing you can prove or disprove either way), but there is nothing wrong with people creating a place to pray. The diocese typically sees no reason to want to forbid that. In fact I find there is always something very touching about a shrine that was not created officially and on command from the church hierarchy but that was created spontaneously by local people and is maintained spontaneously by them without any staff or money being allocated officially, and without any ambition from those people to use it to leverage any message, teaching or political position that could in any way damage the Church or the Faith.
 
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Cirdan_XII said:
i see no evidence that the majority of unapproved apparitions are connected to such divisive and political propaganda. Many that I have learnt about are just about a comforting story of Our Lady appearing to some individual to give them hope or healing and, over time, that place turning into an unofficial shrine where people come to pray.
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This is true. When an “unapproved apparition” becomes contentious in that it’s disagreeing with the Church’s official positions or otherwise exploiting or harming the faithful, the local Bishop will usually issue a negative decision about it and forbid Catholics from being involved with it. At that point it ceases to be merely “unapproved” and becomes something actively negative in the eyes of the Church.

If people are just coming to pray and aren’t being either led astray from church teaching, or exploited for their money, or told to do crazy things like prepare for the Apocalypse, the church usually just lets it be. Prayer is good. If enough people come to pray, it might even eventually be evidence of cult for a sainthood cause for the visionary.
 
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Cirdan_XII said:
there is always something very touching about a shrine that was not created officially and on command from the church hierarchy but that was created spontaneously by local people
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Ok, but just be aware the secular culture in the US works overtime to nurture an atmosphere of suspicion towards the hierarchy. In my diocese anybody who shows the slightest independence or defiance of the bishop gets ample coverage in the pro abortion media. Even if they don’t intend defiance, the media wraps it up that way.
Programs approved by my diocese get no media coverage.
Sometimes things are less “spontaneous” than they appear.
 
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commenter said:
Ok, but just be aware the secular culture in the US works overtime to nurture an atmosphere of suspicion towards the hierarchy. In my diocese anybody who shows the slightest independence or defiance of the bishop gets ample coverage in the pro abortion media. Even if they don’t intend defiance, the media wraps it up that way.
Programs approved by my diocese get no media coverage.
Sometimes things are less “spontaneous” than they appear.
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Sure, I’m absolutely aware of that. The media can be very manipulative, not by outright lying, but by selecting which story to tell and which to ignore.

I think that when the media starts taking an interst in anything that is already a red flag and one needs to start asking, why.

But these places I am thinking of, they are not in the media. Many don’t even have a website of their own. News of them spreads mostly through word of mouth and they are pracitcally unknown outside of their immediate area.
 
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This is where faith comes in. Just like how we should see Jesus in everyone we meet. Sometimes it is hard to do (having faith is not an easy job), but at other times, it is easy to see Jesus in others. For lent, I am working hard to see Jesus in everyone… it is quite hard for me to see Him in some people.

I think you said something though that agrees with what I just said. " the more it became apparent (at least to me) that at best, the apparitions were just pious reflections of the folks who claimed to see them." You are correct… possibly it is only the person who said they saw her she appeared to. It was their faith that caused them to see her.

Have a blessed lent!
 
A very well said intelegent repectful statement. It is true. Who can be against prayers for the betterment of souls.
Great reply. God bless…
 
Very well said. i agree.
You also are wished a blessed lent. God bless…
 
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