World population explosion-human virus

[tuviskazinai]

He doesn’t just provide comfort. He provides. However, He expects our obedience and our trust. Allowing our fear of what “might” happen in a future that doesn’t even exist yet to be an excuse to abandon God’s laws is about as sensible as killing your child because you heard on the news that someone else’s child killed them and you don’t want the same thing to happen to you.

I agree with you that God provides, and your description of the way you have “turned to God” after being abused and taken advantage of is powerful. Thank you for that.

Just one comment about this paragraph…I’m not sure anyone here is saying that we should “abandon God’s laws.” At least, I am not. First of all we are just asking whether there is, or will be, an overpopulation problem in the future…and if so, what would some ways of addressing it be that wouldn’t “abandon God’s laws.”

I may be mistaken, but that’s been my impression so far…no one is saying we should support the abortion industry, for example.

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[brandymmiller]

Reasonably we can;t actually think that God meant procreate until we have no room left to stand. Remember those commandments were given when supposely there was only a few people left!

Calliso, are you trying to tell me that you think God can’t count and He personally needs YOUR help in deciding how many people there should be on the planet? You think the very One who made the human body can’t dry up the fertility if there’s a need for that? He doesn’t make mistakes, Calliso. He knows exactly how many people the Earth can hold and if it becomes a problem He will take care of that. Don’t make yourself God by trying to do that for Him.

 

[tuviskazinai]

Calliso, are you trying to tell me that you think God can’t count and He personally needs YOUR help in deciding how many people there should be on the planet? You think the very One who made the human body can’t dry up the fertility if there’s a need for that? He doesn’t make mistakes, Calliso. He knows exactly how many people the Earth can hold and if it becomes a problem He will take care of that. Don’t make yourself God by trying to do that for Him.

But…eek…“He will take care of that”? Such as…how? By giving us the intelligence to talk about these problems before they get out of control, like we are doing now? Or were you thinking, rather, by deciding that we’ve overpopulated enough and then, like, sending a giant flood or horrendous disease or something to kill off the surplus population?

All I mean to say is that I don’t think we can just sit around like sheep waiting for God to tell us what to do (whom would he talk to? what would that be like, anyway?). We were given the ability to reason for a…well…for a reason.

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[brandymmiller]

Or were you thinking, rather, by deciding that we’ve overpopulated enough and then, like, sending a giant flood or horrendous disease or something to kill off the surplus population?Peace,
+AMDG+

When parents have added a few new children to the fold and the house they were in gets a little too small - they either add on to the house or buy a bigger one - not by killing off a couple of the more annoying kids they’ve had . If human beings are smart enough to think of such a plan, I think God can handle adding a new continent or an island to our humble home should we need a few more rooms.

All I mean to say is that I don’t think we can just sit around like sheep waiting for God to tell us what to do (whom would he talk to? what would that be like, anyway?). We were given the ability to reason for a…well…for a reason.

The Bible tells us that we are to be like sheep, who trust in the shepherd to provide. Haven’t you heard Jesus referred to as the Good Shepherd? Our reason is a tool intended to help us get to know God better and to help us accomplish the plan which He has for our lives. It is not intended that we should use this gift to attempt to elevate ourselves to the status of God by trying to dictate to Him how the universe ought to operate.

 

[Calliso]

But…eek…“He will take care of that”? Such as…how? By giving us the intelligence to talk about these problems before they get out of control, like we are doing now? Or were you thinking, rather, by deciding that we’ve overpopulated enough and then, like, sending a giant flood or horrendous disease or something to kill off the surplus population?

All I mean to say is that I don’t think we can just sit around like sheep waiting for God to tell us what to do (whom would he talk to? what would that be like, anyway?). We were given the ability to reason for a…well…for a reason.

Peace,
+AMDG+

Exactly…oh and I doubt God will add another continent or anything. Thinking God will do stuff like that is really just reaching and extreme hopeful thinking. I rather we deal with with our problems ourselves not pray God performs some massive miracle and do nothing.

 

[brandymmiller]

Exactly…oh and I doubt God will add another continent or anything. Thinking God will do stuff like that is really just reaching and extreme hopeful thinking. I rather we deal with with our problems ourselves not pray God performs some massive miracle and do nothing.

The mechanisms to create new land require no miracle whatsoever as they are already in place - that’s what undersea volcanoes do all the time. Don’t believe me? Study history. Hawaii didn’t always exist.

 

[Calliso]

The mechanisms to create new land require no miracle whatsoever as they are already in place - that’s what undersea volcanoes do all the time. Don’t believe me? Study history. Hawaii didn’t always exist.

Yeah but creating whole new continents is a pretty big thing… island might be a bit more reasonable. But even then the island masses might not be habitable for quite some time. Remember we have to think in time scales of human times…so if we become over populated we donlt have time to wait possible thousands maybe even millions of years for a land mass to form…then become habitable for life. So naturally forming new land wouldn;t be of much help to us if we needed it right then unless God stepped in and sped things up a bit.

 

[brandymmiller]

There was cooling during the midcentury or at least a period of no warming but that has been more or less explained now. scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2006/03/what-about-mid-century-cooling.php

Also most actually thought in the long term there would be global warming. realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/03/the-global-cooling-mole/langswitch_lang/in

Did you know Mars is experiencing its own global warming phenomena?
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

 

[Calliso]

Did you know Mars is experiencing its own global warming phenomena?
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

Hmm read the second page seems his views on the caused of Mars warming isn;t well accepted by most scientists. But more on Mars warming here. skepticalscience.com/global-warming-on-mars.htm

It seems albedo is one of the primary theories as to why there is warming there. So no this neither proves or disproves AGW warming on Earth.

 

[brandymmiller]

But even then the island masses might not be habitable for quite some time. Remember we have to think in time scales of human times…so if we become over populated we donlt have time to wait possible thousands maybe even millions of years for a land mass to form…then become habitable for life. So naturally forming new land wouldn;t be of much help to us if we needed it right then unless God stepped in and sped things up a bit.

Actually it takes less than 10 years for an area formed by volcano to become plush and full of life, ready for human habitation. But let’s put that aside and talk about what’s really bothering you.

Calliso - somewhere along the way you got hurt, and you got hurt badly. Before then you felt sure that God loved you. Once you got hurt, you lost your confidence. You started believing the people who told you there was no God. You left the Church. You didn’t think it was much of a loss because to be perfectly honest you weren’t very well informed about what the Church really taught anyway. It just seemed like a whole lot of horribly overburdensome rules - rules that made you feel guilty and ashamed all the time. You can’t quite shake the feeling that there is a God, but you really aren’t sure who He is or whether He actually cares about you or not. You come to this message board hoping to find a reason to believe, even while you talk yourself out of believing any time someone brings up something that hits too close to home or would require you to take that leap of faith and make a change. Let me settle your doubts. He loves you. He’s spent a long time and a lot of effort trying to show you how much He loves you. He talks to you every time you are on this message board. He talks to you through every person who has ever shown you love. Don’t try to figure out what God wants for you. TALK TO HIM - honestly talk to Him. Tell Him how angry you are that He wasn’t there for you - or you thought He wasn’t - when you needed Him most. It’s okay. He’s a big guy, He can take it. Ask Him why He let it happen - He’s not afraid of questions like that. Ask Him whether He wants you to have children, and tell Him if He really wants that for you to put that desire not just into your heart but into the heart of your husband. Keep asking until He gives you what you want - answers. He doesn’t mind it when you nag, in fact the more persistent you are in seeking those answers the more seriously He will take you.

Keep your mind and your heart open. God’s been waiting a long time to share this stuff with you. He just needed to be sure that you were ready to really hear it. And, if you need to talk to a human being, just let me know. I’m not just here because I like to debate or because I want everyone to be Catholic (guilty on both counts). I’m here because I really and truly care about everybody on this message board and I want you to know how much you are loved and cared for by God. I want you to stop haivng to worry about things so much so you can start living the life that God intended you to live. I want to give you back what got stolen from you by someone who was so broken they chose an innocent and hurt them. Most of all, I don’t want you to walk in fear but in the confidence and peace that comes from knowing that whatever you may be going through it is ultimately happening for your own good and the good of those you love most.

 

[Calliso]

Actually it takes less than 10 years for an area formed by volcano to become plush and full of life, ready for human habitation. But let’s put that aside and talk about what’s really bothering you.

Calliso - somewhere along the way you got hurt, and you got hurt badly. Before then you felt sure that God loved you. Once you got hurt, you lost your confidence. You started believing the people who told you there was no God. You left the Church. You didn’t think it was much of a loss because to be perfectly honest you weren’t very well informed about what the Church really taught anyway. It just seemed like a whole lot of horribly overburdensome rules - rules that made you feel guilty and ashamed all the time. You can’t quite shake the feeling that there is a God, but you really aren’t sure who He is or whether He actually cares about you or not. You come to this message board hoping to find a reason to believe, even while you talk yourself out of believing any time someone brings up something that hits too close to home or would require you to take that leap of faith and make a change. Let me settle your doubts. He loves you. He’s spent a long time and a lot of effort trying to show you how much He loves you. He talks to you every time you are on this message board. He talks to you through every person who has ever shown you love. Don’t try to figure out what God wants for you. TALK TO HIM - honestly talk to Him. Tell Him how angry you are that He wasn’t there for you - or you thought He wasn’t - when you needed Him most. It’s okay. He’s a big guy, He can take it. Ask Him why He let it happen - He’s not afraid of questions like that. Ask Him whether He wants you to have children, and tell Him if He really wants that for you to put that desire not just into your heart but into the heart of your husband. Keep asking until He gives you what you want - answers. He doesn’t mind it when you nag, in fact the more persistent you are in seeking those answers the more seriously He will take you.

Keep your mind and your heart open. God’s been waiting a long time to share this stuff with you. He just needed to be sure that you were ready to really hear it. And, if you need to talk to a human being, just let me know. I’m not just here because I like to debate or because I want everyone to be Catholic (guilty on both counts). I’m here because I really and truly care about everybody on this message board and I want you to know how much you are loved and cared for by God. I want you to stop haivng to worry about things so much so you can start living the life that God intended you to live. I want to give you back what got stolen from you by someone who was so broken they chose an innocent and hurt them. Most of all, I don’t want you to walk in fear but in the confidence and peace that comes from knowing that whatever you may be going through it is ultimately happening for your own good and the good of those you love most.

I would be interested in hearing more info about the land thing.

As for your other claims…actually I have never been Catholic but am a Christian I just claim no denomination. I do believe in God though and in a God that cares about his creation. I also think that for the most part we are on our own and shouldn;t be expecting too much intervening from him. Also I have talked to God before…to be honest I find if he answers his answers usually aren;t too clear. However I am pretty sure his answer on the kids thing…is are you kidding me!?? you a parent HAHAHHAHAHA…lets put it this way even if I wanted kids I would not have them.

I have talked to God though plenty…I just donlt really expect an answer and much of the time I am not really looking for an aswer either. I also donlt think in the bad things happen for the greater good either. I am going through something right now in which I donlt think there could possibly be any good that comes from it. But bad stuff happens and I accept that

 

[jmtowle]

Most of what I think on this subject matter has been covered but I might add a few other considerations or queries. If we are to control population voluntarily, how do we determine who should volunteer and who should procreate at their own discretion? Should those people who want to have large families and are capable in every way of fully supporting and creating solid citizens, be discouraged from having any more children than those who either don’t want or are incapable of supporting " desirable " citizens? Since we don’t know the breaking point as regards resources, how do we know the proper rate of procreation? Do we deny millions of people the opportunity to experience this life so that an undetermined number of people may experience some degree of hoped for comfort and enjoyment, which is certainly not guaranteed? And the singular most profound question is, what gives anyone the right to deny the possibility of spending eternity in the full Presence of God, without end, which is what happens when you play God with your reasoning, which has the real possibility of being flawed? If you are Christian and believe in eternity and heaven, it is unthinkable that you would purposely choose your own comfort in this short life in exchange for denying the possibility of permitting God to attach an eternal soul to a mortal body. All things are created by God, all things are God’s, trust in God to do what is best for your eternal soul even if that produces a less than ideal condition in this brief experience known as human life. Ideally, it would be most beneficial if we could communicate with someone who’s life experience was pure misery from start to finish but was now existing in the full presence of God. The only worthwhile question would be, were you glad to have been born into human existence or would you have preferred to avoid all that suffering? I think that the fact that you have been born into the possibility of existing for eternity in absolute bliss with God, disqualifies you as a judge on who is and isn’t deserving of such a potential existence.

JT

 

[choose_to_love]

brandym, I think you will agree that as Catholics we are to practice responsible parenthood, by discerning what we are being called to by God, and what our responsibilities are as they exist on the ground with respect to our spouse, our existing family, and society.

I think it is reasonable to suggest that here in the U.S. or in the West in general, there is no responsibility to society that would argue against large families. However, that is probably not true for many couples in many societies today in various parts of the world, and in those societies, a couple may not get that far in the criteria before encountering a reason to postpone the next pregnancy - - that is, responsibilities to one’s spouse and existing children may indicate that it would be prudent to postpone for a time.

Now, by the same token, I think it is possible to see how a couple, even in the West, could analyze the situation, after prayer and discernment, and come to the conclusion that given the inequality and inequity in resource use/distribution, that postponing or having a relatively small family may be what they are called to. I may not agree with the conclusion, but if it is arrived at after serious discernment of the above factors, as Catholics I think we would have to respect the decision of the couple, perhaps while trying to persuade them otherwise. If that is not case now, it may be in the indefinite future.

FWIW, I think many of the problems that are associated with overpopulation are tied to really disoredered understandings of our sexuality, where women are looked upon as objects of lust, always subject to male domination & always available for sex, males failre to understand the nature of sex, etc.

FYI, we have three kids (two adoptions) with one on the way naturally. The adoptions were not motivated by any considerations of overpopulation, resource distribution, etc. We would like a large family, but will see to what we are called.

 

[peacefulwarrior]

God, has hope in humans, and he hopes that we will all go to his side. Though he wants us to be with him, he won’t force us to joining him. What is the difference with this, most humans seem to have decided on this path.

Okay, back to the land issue. You, all think we will keep propegating. But, the weakness in that is that there is not enough room to keep doing that. Even if all the resources of earth were perfectly distributed, perfectly accessible. (Which will never happen) They are still limited. There will be a limited amount of food acessible. We can keep more and more food. But, we grow more because we gain access to other resources that were never exploited to help increase the output of each food crop. But, sooner or later that limit is reached. God, may decide to help us get out of the mess we seem to be creating. But, if he doesn’t and we continue on the course we seem to have chosen. Then, I fear we are going to be in battle, and wars so massive over the resources we have. That, every other battle before these, would seem like a walk in the park. Resources dont just pop, out of no where. If more land was created by underwater volcanoes, it won’t be long till it is habitated. But, it doesn’t matter because the earth is limited in size. Resources on earth aren’t infinite, just renewable, and same in number.

God helps the helpless! Isaiah 25:4 . There are plenty of people who are completely helpless about their situation. But, if you became helpless because you didn’t listen to those trying to warn you, and became helpless as a result, I don’t think god would consider helping you as much compared to the people who did everything possible to avoid a situation because they listened but the situation still happened because of the people who didn’t head the warning.

It’s better to overreact than to underreact.

God gave us the ability to reason. Just like tuviskazinai said. Why would God, give us another house, when our head is saying, hey there is no room left!

God would probably be annoyed at us if we had to ask him to control every aspect of our lives. He would probably be furious we create a mess that we reasoned was gonna happen, but didn’t try to stop it because we expect him to get us out of trouble. (he gave us the gift of reason for a reason, i dont think he would be happy if we didn’t use it once in a while)

If we can do something, that can get us out of future trouble lets do it. I don’t think he even wants bail us out of trouble, because he would think that of gift of reasoning, would keep us out most trouble. He probably has more important tasks to deal with. If he doesn’t okay, if he does i don’t want to make him angry, go with the safe route okayl.

 

[brandymmiller]

I would be interested in hearing more info about the land thing.

As for your other claims…actually I have never been Catholic but am a Christian I just claim no denomination. I do believe in God though and in a God that cares about his creation. I also think that for the most part we are on our own and shouldn;t be expecting too much intervening from him. Also I have talked to God before…to be honest I find if he answers his answers usually aren;t too clear. However I am pretty sure his answer on the kids thing…is are you kidding me!?? you a parent HAHAHHAHAHA…lets put it this way even if I wanted kids I would not have them.

I have talked to God though plenty…I just donlt really expect an answer and much of the time I am not really looking for an aswer either. I also donlt think in the bad things happen for the greater good either. I am going through something right now in which I donlt think there could possibly be any good that comes from it. But bad stuff happens and I accept that

God intervenes every day for your sake and others, but He does so in ways that do not interfere in our gift of free will so many times it is much harder to discern His fingerprint until we look back upon a situation. On the contrary, His answer to you on the kids thing is not laughter but rejoicing. You would make a wonderful parent and it would surprise you to no end just how awesome you would be, you have so much compassion for others and a concern for justice. However, first you must let go of your bitterness and your anger and your self-doubt and believe that you are worthy.

Well if you aren’t looking for and don’t expect an answer you can hardly be surprised if you don’t find what you aren’t looking for and don’t expect to see. The answers are there. They’ve been there all along. I know that you think nothing good can come from what you have been through, but I’ve been where you’ve been and I know it can. If you offer up your pain and your sorrow and your suffering to God - really give it up and allow Him to work in you - He will take every ounce of that woundedness and transform it into something that will heal the people around you, that will uplift those who have been through something like it, and that will be your own strength and your own salvation. You can get through this only one of two ways. The first way is with anger and bitterness wondering “Why me?” Been there, done that, got that t-shirt and believe me that’s the ugliest thing in the world. The second way is with God holding your hand, leading you and teaching you. The second way brings healing and hope and happiness - the first way brings misery and discord and destruction. I will pray for you that you should change your heart and believe.

 

[mpi]

Most scientists do indeed agree that there is global warming going on right now, just as most agreed in the 1970’s that there was global cooling. (freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1310991/posts)

What is not agreed upon by any clear majority is either the cause OR the solution.

Darwinian logic should be the very best reason we have not to subscribe to the philosophy of population reduction:

The society/species/entity that refuses to reproduce WILL BE REPLACED by one that does not.

Exactly!

 

[HBee22]

There is a great book dealing with this question by Stephen Mosher called ‘Population Control: Real Costs, Illusory Benefits.’

 

[mpi]

There is a great book dealing with this question by Stephen Mosher called ‘Population Control: Real Costs, Illusory Benefits.’

Thanks for the tip. And welcome. I know that someone who addresses the lies of overpopulation on their second post is someone who I have a great deal of respect for.

 

[YourAverageJoe]

Not likely.

[World Population 2010](http://geography.about.com/od/obta(name removed by moderator)opulationdata/a/worldpopulation.htm): 6.8 billion
Land Area of Texas: 268,820 sq. mi.
Population density of NYC: 26,403/sq. mi.

One could theoretically accommodate the entire population of the world (i.e including all of China, all of India, …) in an area the size of the state of Texas and a population density of 25,296/sq. mi.

Of course, food/water distribution would be a challenge… but certainly not an insurmountable one. We can do it in NYC, so we ought to be able to “ramp it up.” The point is, that leaves available the whole rest of the world for growing food, producing energy, etc.

Next time you look at a globe, look how small Texas is compared with the rest of the world… and you’ll see that we’re far from running out of resources.

Very well…

My economics Teacher who owns a very large farm here in California’s Central Valley says due to technolgy advances, farm and food production in the US increases 30% every year while farmable land decreases 10% every year… Whoooah!!! The San Joaquin and Sacramento Valleys here in Ca already produce 30-40% of the worlds food. The Valleys sizes added together are about 1/3 the size of Florida. He also said we have civil engineers and experts in irrigation right now in Iraq, engineering a way to build dams and irrigation canals to have Iraq look much like California. Iraq has some of the best soil in the world for farming… just untapped!

If the rest of the world would apply the technololy we have in the US nobody would ever starve…no matter how big the population got… Jesus promised even the birds would be fed, no worry! I believe that!

 

[North_of_Nod]

I’m glad you’ve been winning the abortion argument. You’re certainly right that while the sharp increase in population may seem like a problem, two wrongs don’t make a right. It is no justification for abortion. Because abortion is murder, it would be equivalent to going out with a gun with the intention of “decreasing the world population.” I think what it comes down to is proper planning, and birth control follows the same logic as abortion. It is the prevention of something natural by using unnatural means. I think a good dose of common sense and responsibility could go a long way in this world. Unfortunately, however, common sense isn’t so common anymore. I guess you could say that you reap what you sow when it comes to being sexually irresponsible. The world might just have to find that out the hard way. It’s a tough issue, for sure.