World Youth Day: Catholicism or Corruption?

[SenorSalsa]

This was not an overnight with the youth group. It was an affair that lasted several days.

And in the camping out segment, where were the lines drawn? How about in the mosh pit and the body surfing areas? I worked at enough concerts to know exactly what happens in those areas. Of course, I could be charitable and say that such things could never ever happen at such an event.

But such a statement just wouldn’t be true. You put young men and young women together, as in this video, fuel them with good rock music, get those endorphins and not coincidentally hormones racing, and I’ll guarantee you that something is going to happen.

And if it does whose fault is it? The kifs themselves, who look pretty much left to their own devices from what I saw? The chaperones who obviously can’t be everywhere at once or probably even able to exercise any control whatsoever in those areas or the organizers of the event who provided the place, the background and everything else?

I think the answer is obvious.

I would blame the kids first, the ones that will be sexually immoral, or otherwise immoral, are going to be so no matter what the “place background and [any]thing esle”

Next I would blame the chaperones. It is thier responsibility to make sure no illegal substances make the trip to begin with, and thier responsibility to keep control of the kids. If they cant keep control, they obviously need more chaperones or less kids. My Church requires at least 1 chaperone per every (i think) 10 kids, and tries to get more if possible.

Last i would blame the organizers. They didnt organize the place to avoid all immorality becuase that would be impossible. The only way to do that would be to have seperate boy and girl events, and even that would not be a sure way. They set up the event with modesty in mind, and probably include plenty of places for those who want to listen to the music but not mosh, and places for those who dont want to listen at all. And as I said before, If a bus can be kept seperate boy and girl, surely a campsite can be done the same.

 

[consumedconvert]

Perhaps we should sharpen our focus. What are we defending or condemning here??

There have been several WYDs. There will be one in July. They all have different organizers.

So, are the posters of the video saying this one event sums up all the WYDs since JPII initiated the event? What organizers must be blamed? Are we to think that all of the events of all the WYDs are irreverant? Is WYD just rotten to the core becuase it’s WYD?

Is it just possible that the WYD in America was more reverent than the WYD in Canada? Is it possiblt that the WYD in Germany had some problematic aspects planners will be anticipating and have adjusted plans for in WYD Sydney 08? Or are events of all WYDs of the devil, because they are the Pope reaching out to the youth?

 

[saint_rafael]

You want to go back to a church that Freshman88 admittedly didn’t live, but has only read about. And, you criticize those of us who HAVE “lived it” for decades, and are content and happy in God’s True Church, TODAY.

That’s the problem with your generation. There is a bitterness and dislike for the pre-Vatican II Church.
Your generation did not appreciate the beauty and strength of the Church. You people were hard hearted about the gift you had.

Many of us who were born decades after VII would have loved to live during those years. Let me put it clearly:
The Church COLLAPSED after Vatican II. We have a Church in ruins. The Church is near death. The liturgy was destroyed and the New Mass has been a miserable failure and mistake.

We have a Church that lost its identity and is in apostasy. Young Traditionalists were never given a chance to experience real authentic Catholicism. Brick by brick we need to tear down every reform that came after Vatican II and return not to the 50’s, but to a greater epoch that can rival the glorious triumph of the Middle Ages.

 

[Dauphin]

Or are events of all WYDs of the devil, because they are the Pope reaching out to the youth?

That’s just it. I don’t want to be reached out to. I just want solid Catholic teaching, good Bishops, obedient priests, reverent liturgy. I don’t need a bunch of contrived, dumbed-down nonsense “designed” for youth. I don’t need the base elements of our corrupt, modern culture reworked and adapted to the faith. Catholic culture is good enough for me.

The Traditional Latin Mass is the greatest youth magnet of all, as far as I’m concerned. It’s the antidote to all the garbage that Catholic youth like me had to put up with for so long.

 

[consumedconvert]

That’s the problem with your generation. There is a bitterness and dislike for the pre-Vatican II Church.
Your generation did not appreciate the beauty and strength of the Church. You people were hard hearted about the gift you had.

Many of us who were born decades after VII would have loved to live during those years. Let me put it clearly:
The Church COLLAPSED after Vatican II. We have a Church in ruins. The Church is near death. The liturgy was destroyed and the New Mass has been a miserable failure and mistake.

We have a Church that lost its identity and is in apostasy. Young Traditionalists were never given a chance to experience real authentic Catholicism. Brick by brick we need to tear down every reform that came after Vatican II and return not to the 50’s, but to a greater epoch that can rival the glorious triumph of the Middle Ages.

Oooooookaaaaaaaaay…

Glad you can read hearts and minds, and don’t mind calling out those nasty old bald guys who care nothing for God.

(You might however pause for a moment and reflect that were it not for these old folks, Catholicism would not have been passed down to us. So perhaps they deserve some respect after all, hmm…)

The Church cannot collapse. That’s high school theology, remember? “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it…” Tell the new orders the Church has collapsed. Tell Opus Dei or the Brothers of St. John or the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal. Tell our African and Asian brethren that the Church has collapsed. Tell the Pope, or the millions on pilgrimage to Rome.

Now, are Catholics in many dioceses of the US and Western Europe currently weak and in many ways in need of revival? Is secularism a grave threat to the faith and practice of many in the West? Yes indeedy. Do we need help? Saints help us! We need help! Will we find it by blasting our elders and taking on the responsibilities of a Church Council by declaring their work invalid and in need of reppealing? Well, nooooooo…

And I’m pretty sure that their generation, unlike our own, knew how to respect their elders, too.

The middle ages were indeed glorious. We will never return to them. When the Church reaches such a level of glory again, it will not look like the Middle Ages. That epoch is gone forever. But the Church, oh no, She is not gone, nowhere near dead! She is being built every day–not by tearing down our immediate past in search of a long gone epoch, but in building her up in the present–and not by judging our elders, whom we have no right nor knowledge to judge.

Look around you, there are many ways to build up the Church, first of all by working on our own sadly lacking spirituality.

Saints help us.

 

[ethelzguy]

That’s the problem with your generation. There is a bitterness and dislike for the pre-Vatican II Church.
Your generation did not appreciate the beauty and strength of the Church. You people were hard hearted about the gift you had.

Many of us who were born decades after VII would have loved to live during those years. Let me put it clearly:
The Church COLLAPSED after Vatican II. We have a Church in ruins. The Church is near death. The liturgy was destroyed and the New Mass has been a miserable failure and mistake.

We have a Church that lost its identity and is in apostasy. Young Traditionalists were never given a chance to experience real authentic Catholicism. Brick by brick we need to tear down every reform that came after Vatican II and return not to the 50’s, but to a greater epoch that can rival the glorious triumph of the Middle Ages.

Oh please. You kids know it all don’t you? mmmmmmm…where have I heard THAT before?

I have no bitterness whatsover toward the pre-Vatican II Church. The fact that I enjoy some of the changes hardly translates into bitterness.

Who are you to tell me what I did and did not appreciate about the beauty of the Church back then?

The “gift I HAD”? It’s the gift I HAVE, young fellow. It’s my Catholic Faith.

The Church hasn’t “Collapsed”, she is hardly “In Ruins”, and she certainly isn’t “Near Death” or “In Apostacy”.

There is a reason that our Church Fathers are “long in the tooth”. They have lived long enough to gain wisdom in all things the Church. They don’t make knee-jerk declarations based on some on-line article they read.

Perhaps in 50 years or so, you too will have gained the wisdom of those before you. But first, you must learn that you don’t know it all.

TBL

 

[consumedconvert]

That’s just it. I don’t want to be reached out to. I just want solid Catholic teaching, good Bishops, obedient priests, reverent liturgy. I don’t need a bunch of contrived, dumbed-down nonsense “designed” for youth. I don’t need the base elements of our corrupt, modern culture reworked and adapted to the faith. Catholic culture is good enough for me.

The Traditional Latin Mass is the greatest youth magnet of all, as far as I’m concerned. It’s the antidote to all the garbage that Catholic youth like me had to put up with for so long.

And obviously your chatecheses helped you obtain your current level of charity, esp. concerning those of our generation who rejoice in the oppertunity to attend WYD.

 

[ethelzguy]

That’s just it. I don’t want to be reached out to. I just want solid Catholic teaching, good Bishops, obedient priests, reverent liturgy. I don’t need a bunch of contrived, dumbed-down nonsense “designed” for youth. I don’t need the base elements of our corrupt, modern culture reworked and adapted to the faith. Catholic culture is good enough for me.

The Traditional Latin Mass is the greatest youth magnet of all, as far as I’m concerned. It’s the antidote to all the garbage that Catholic youth like me had to put up with for so long.

Were you FORCED as a Catholic youth, to particpate in things that were “designed” for youth? Were you forced to attend a WYD? or did you stay home and practice your Latin? Were you forced to go to summer youth camp, or did you stay home and pray your rosary and and LOTH?

Or, are you just sitting at your keyboard looking for something to bash?

 

[Dauphin]

And obviously your chatecheses helped you obtain your current level of charity, esp. concerning those of our generation who rejoice in the oppertunity to attend WYD.

My 12 years of Catholic catechesis consisted of “God loves you” and “We go to Church for the community”.

There’s nothing wrong with the idea of World Youth Day. It’s a fantastic idea. The best way to implement it is to organize the most reverent, traditional Catholic liturgies and the most orthodox Catholic instruction possible. Not to dumb things down and capitulate to the spirit of the world.

 

[ethelzguy]

That’s the problem with your generation. There is a bitterness and dislike for the pre-Vatican II Church.
Your generation did not appreciate the beauty and strength of the Church. You people were hard hearted about the gift you had.

Many of us who were born decades after VII would have loved to live during those years. Let me put it clearly:
The Church COLLAPSED after Vatican II. We have a Church in ruins. The Church is near death. The liturgy was destroyed and the New Mass has been a miserable failure and mistake.

We have a Church that lost its identity and is in apostasy. Young Traditionalists were never given a chance to experience real authentic Catholicism. Brick by brick we need to tear down every reform that came after Vatican II and return not to the 50’s, but to a greater epoch that can rival the glorious triumph of the Middle Ages.

A question, St. Rafael…do you speak to your parish priests in person like this? Do you write letters like this to your Bishop expressing your opinions and SIGN them with your real name and contact info?

Or do you save it for when you can hide behind a screen name at a keyboard?

 

[ethelzguy]

My 12 years of Catholic catechesis consisted of “God loves you” and “We go to Church for the community”.

And what, if anything, have you done to correct this in your own parish? Do you teach CCD? Are you a Youth Group sponsor?

It’s easy to sit at a keyboard slinging arrows at the HMC, but what do you do personally to live and teach your faith?

 

[Dauphin]

Were you FORCED as a Catholic youth, to particpate in things that were “designed” for youth?

Yes. At the Catholic school I attended, I was quite literally forced to attend some of the most apallingly irreverent liturgies I’ve ever witnessed, and some of the worst Catholic instruction I could ever imagine - all of course designed for the benefit of us youth.

By the end, I was of course an atheist. I was brought back by the traditions of the Church, and I’m a strong believer in their value as a result.

Were you forced to attend a WYD?

My parents dragged me along.

or did you stay home and practice your Latin?

I didn’t know a word of Latin, thanks to my Catholic schooling.

Were you forced to go to summer youth camp, or did you stay home and pray your rosary and and LOTH?

Gladly, I didn’t have to endure that. They did send us on periodic retreats where un-habited nuns would subject us to bizarre modernist spirituality.

Or, are you just sitting at your keyboard looking for something to bash?

I didn’t have to look - I endured it personally.

 

[Dauphin]

And what, if anything, have you done to correct this in your own parish? Do you teach CCD? Are you a Youth Group sponsor?

It’s easy to sit at a keyboard slinging arrows at the HMC, but what do you do personally to live and teach your faith?

I’m not interested in discussing my personal spirituality or the activities at my parish. You’re right, however, to say that everyone should work towards correcting the modernist trends in the Church’s instruction and liturgy.

To be clear, I’m not criticising the Church. The Church is a divine institution. I’m criticizing those who are disobedient to her and who denied me her traditional treasures.

 

[saint_rafael]

The “gift I HAD”? It’s the gift I HAVE, young fellow. It’s my Catholic Faith.

The Church hasn’t “Collapsed”, she is hardly “In Ruins”, and she certainly isn’t “Near Death” or “In Apostacy”.

Perhaps in 50 years or so, you too will have gained the wisdom of those before you. But first, you must learn that you don’t know it all.
TBL

The Catholic Faith is DEAD for most Catholics and around the world. There is only a remnant.

Stats tell the truth. The Apostasy cannot be denied.

77% of Catholics don’t go to Mass. That is a crisis. The vast majority of Catholics are on their way to damnation.

Mass Atendance
1958: 77%
2007: 23%

Seminarians:
1965: 48,000
2007: 4,200

over 80% of Catholics do not believe in the real presense of Jesus in the Eucharist.

In 50 years I hope I can say that I kept the Traditional Catholic Faith through the apostasy and chastisements. That I was part of the restoration and the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

 

[consumedconvert]

The Catholic Faith is DEAD for most Catholics and around the world. There is only a remnant.

Stats tell the truth. The Apostasy cannot be denied.

77% of Catholics don’t go to Mass. That is a crisis. The vast majority of Catholics are on their way to damnation.

Mass Atendance
1958: 77%
2007: 23%

Seminarians:
1965: 48,000
2007: 4,200

over 80% of Catholics do not believe in the real presense of Jesus in the Eucharist.

In 50 years I hope I can say that I kept the Traditional Catholic through the apostasy and chastisements. That I was part of the restoration and the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Dude, I don’t know who you’ve been reading but you need to stop. The Catholic Church doesn’t die. People become sloppy Catholics, but there is great hope they will someday enter further into their faith.

You have no faith. It’s not your job to preserve the Church, it’s the Holy Spirit’s. Talk to your pastor. Have you brought this up for confession? You have great zeal without wisdom–seek some spiritual direction from a good Catholic priest. Let the Magisterium and the Hierarchy do their job–which is to lead the Church–and you focus on your job–as a lay person. Isn’t that what Tradition teaches? Why are you clericalising yourself? You are NOT an authority in the RCC. Sorry, but you need to come off it and grow a little.

 

[donmaximuso27]

A question, St. Rafael…do you speak to your parish priests in person like this? Do you write letters like this to your Bishop expressing your opinions and SIGN them with your real name and contact info?

Or do you save it for when you can hide behind a screen name at a keyboard?

Look who’s talking buddy. You have done nothing but bash traditional, orthodox Catholicism on this thread. And, you dare compare yourself to a priest or bishop. Is St. Rafael supposed to debate with you in the same way he would debate with a bishop? Give me a break! Facts and statistics show that the pre 1960’s Church was much stronger then the one today. The members of our Church have been infiltrated by the horrible sins committed during the cultural revolutions of the 60’s and 70’s. You are one of the few Catholics that I have heard deny this fact. I am not sure why you continue to deny this, you must have some super ego mindset about your own generation and culture. Still, the fact remains that the Church compares nothing to what it used to in mass attendance, confession attendance, theological knowledge, or vocation numbers. It is clear fact that there are some major problems in the Church today. You might want to come to that realization. And honestly, nobody has to answer to you on what they have done to solve these problems, you aren’t our parish priest, bishop, or pope. We have already started doing something regarding these problems by realizing they exist! Maybe you should do the same.

 

[saint_rafael]

Dude, I don’t know who you’ve been reading but you need to stop. The Catholic Church doesn’t die. People become sloppy Catholics, but there is great hope they will someday enter further into their faith.
You have no faith. It’s not your job to preserve the Church, it’s the Holy Spirit’s. Talk to your pastor. Have you brought this up for confession? You have great zeal without wisdom–seek some spiritual direction from a good Catholic priest. Let the Magisterium and the Hierarchy do their job–which is to lead the Church–and you focus on your job–as a lay person. Isn’t that what Tradition teaches? Why are you clericalising yourself? You are NOT an authority in the RCC. Sorry, but you need to come off it and grow a little

I don’t know if you misread or what, but I did not say the Catholic faith is dead, I said that the faith was dead to most people. They have no faith. The faith was dead TO THEM. I didn’t say the Church was dead.

I have no faith? You ignoramus. I have been defending the traditional faith for years. I have more faith than most Catholics, priestas, and bishops. You have no idea the work, dedication, and faith it takes in these dark days. I have called priests heretics to their face and have defended the dogmas of the Church against their attacks against the Bible, faith, and Christ.

As a baptized member of the Church I am part of the Church and it will be the laity along with the clergy that will restore the Church. When there has been apostasies before, The laity started grass-roots movements and against corrupt hierarchies. Good and holy men then entered the clergy.

BTW, I am still discerning my vocation. I might still become a priest and help the Church that way.
Priest or Lay I will be faithful to the faith and truth.

 

[Dauphin]

Look who’s talking buddy. You have done nothing but bash traditional, orthodox Catholicism on this thread. And, you dare compare yourself to a priest or bishop. Is St. Rafael supposed to debate with you in the same way he would debate with a bishop? Give me a break! Facts and statistics show that the pre 1960’s Church was much stronger then the one today. The members of our Church have been infiltrated by the horrible sins committed during the cultural revolutions of the 60’s and 70’s. You are one of the few Catholics that I have heard deny this fact. I am not sure why you continue to deny this, you must have some super ego mindset about your own generation and culture. Still, the fact remains that the Church compares nothing to what it used to in mass attendance, confession attendance, theological knowledge, or vocation numbers. It is clear fact that there are some major problems in the Church today. You might want to come to that realization. And honestly, nobody has to answer to you on what they have done to solve these problems, you aren’t our parish priest, bishop, or pope. We have already started doing something regarding these problems by realizing they exist! Maybe you should do the same.

It’s much if the black death is ravaging the world again, people are dropping dead all over the place, and some people refuse to accept it.

We can take solace in the fact, however, that the black death probably did more harm to the Church than the spirit of Vatican II.

 

[donmaximuso27]

Dude, I don’t know who you’ve been reading but you need to stop. The Catholic Church doesn’t die. People become sloppy Catholics, but there is great hope they will someday enter further into their faith.

You have no faith. It’s not your job to preserve the Church, it’s the Holy Spirit’s. Talk to your pastor. Have you brought this up for confession? You have great zeal without wisdom–seek some spiritual direction from a good Catholic priest. Let the Magisterium and the Hierarchy do their job–which is to lead the Church–and you focus on your job–as a lay person. Isn’t that what Tradition teaches? Why are you clericalising yourself? You are NOT an authority in the RCC. Sorry, but you need to come off it and grow a little.

We lead by example. Lay people are called to address problems within the Church. It must be known why it is important to fulfill Sunday mass obligations, why the Eucharist is so vital to our faith, and why a Christocentric life is essential for salvation. As lay people it is our obligation to address these problems and help the Church with fellow brothers and sisters of Christ. This isn’t clericalism, what a ridiculous accusation. Perhaps you should look at the CCC and what it teaches on laity recognizing problems within the Church:

904 "Christ . . . fulfills this prophetic office, not only by the hierarchy . . . but also by the laity. He accordingly both establishes them as witnesses and provides them with the sense of the faith [sensus fidei] and the grace of the word"438

To teach in order to lead others to faith is the task of every preacher and of each believer.439

907 "In accord with the knowledge, competence, and preeminence which they possess, [lay people] have the *right *and even at times a *duty *to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and they have a right to make their opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward their pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons."443

 

[piouswoman]

The Catholic Faith is DEAD for most Catholics and around the world. There is only a remnant.

Stats tell the truth. The Apostasy cannot be denied.

77% of Catholics don’t go to Mass. That is a crisis. The vast majority of Catholics are on their way to damnation.

Mass Atendance
1958: 77%
2007: 23%

Seminarians:
1965: 48,000
2007: 4,200

over 80% of Catholics do not believe in the real presense of Jesus in the Eucharist.

In 50 years I hope I can say that I kept the Traditional Catholic Faith through the apostasy and chastisements. That I was part of the restoration and the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Those are scary statistics, and they are accurate…the bury your head in the sand mentality needs to stop. Prayers and reparation must be made, it is what Our Lady asked for at Fatima…
catholictradition.org/Mary/fatima4.htm
catholictradition.org/Mary/fatima1a.htm#FATIMA