Worried about Lifeteen coming to our Parish

[benedictgal]

With all due respect, not every comment that disagrees with yours is a strawman argument. My question is valid because he said “if people think it needs to be changed” which back then people DID think we needed to switch away from Latin, yet many say that was a good thing.

Once again, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops gave Life Teen a list of items that needed to be changed; they got changed. I know this because I was there at the time. Life Teen acted in accordance to Bishops, who likely reported their findings to the Vatican. Once again, if there was a huge issue about it they would have scrapped it totally.

If you were to re-read my posts, I never said anything about scrapping the movement. What I have called into question is what LifeTeen has been doing to the Mass, inclusive of the music. The Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist, a good majority of whom were bishops (including some from the United States) found the music used at Youth Masses to be problematic. That is something that you do not seem to recognize.

Rather than just go by what the LifeTeen manual says, why try and introduce Traditional elements of sacred music into the Mass? You may find that the youth will be receptive of this because it is not the same-old same-old that they listen to on their i-pods and on the radio. Sacred music goes beyond themselves and delves into a deeper level. You do the kids no favors by not exposing them to the rich treasury of the Church’s sacred music.

Having an Apostolic Constitution approved is one thing; how the movement treats the Mass is quite another, something that you continue to not see, as I read your posts.

 

[CMatt25]

But, again, the Mass is not about the homily, as you, yourself, pointed out. However, the Church has her standards, something that the proponents of the movement tend to forget. When we are not exposing the youth to these standards, they will grow up thinking that there is not more to the Mass than what they have experienced and will go elsewhere. When the entertainment factor is gone, then there is nothing left because they were not grounded into something firm and enduring in the first place.

The Eucharist is the center of the Mass. But the other things are part of Mass as well. Otherwise should we just go in for the Eucharist and skip all the rest? No. So whatever Mass a person prefers should be fine. I’m glad if you like attending a Latin Mass. That is great. But if someone else prefers attending another Mass, that’s great too. If we don’t do away with various Masses, no one will have to worry about something being gone. And they can remain receiving the Eucharist while perhaps getting a bit more inspiration from the other things out of whichever Mass they get it from. Some of us are completely inspired by a Latin Mass. I’m not one of them but I think it’s great if you are.

 

[Melchior_1]

If you were to re-read my posts, I never said anything about scrapping the movement. What I have called into question is what LifeTeen has been doing to the Mass, inclusive of the music. The Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist, a good majority of whom were bishops (including some from the United States) found the music used at Youth Masses to be problematic. That is something that you do not seem to recognize.

I do they saw it as an issue, however I also see that they did not perform a sweeping outright ban on such Masses, otherwise such Masses would have changed at this point courtesy of our Arch-Bishop, who happens to be the Bishop of a high-profile diocese.

Rather than just go by what the LifeTeen manual says, why try and introduce Traditional elements of sacred music into the Mass?

You’re assuming we don’t. My wife composes and teaches Sacred Music, and she isn’t the only one. We have one such gentlemen with us.

Having an Apostolic Constitution approved is one thing; how the movement treats the Mass is quite another, something that you continue to not see, as I read your posts.

Having the Apostolic Constitution approved, to me, is a tacit approval on how they do the Mass. You would think before having such an approval they would take the time to say “you know fellows, that whole Charismatic business? Let’s dial that down some”.

EDIT: “When the entertainment factor is gone, then there is nothing left because they were not grounded into something firm and enduring in the first place.”

It appears as if my comments about teaching the youth to approach the Mass and the Eucharist/Sacraments with reverence has fallen on deaf ears. Because really, you can’t get much more firm than teaching them about the Body and Blood of Christ, in addition to the Mass and what the Mass is all about.

 

[michaeldaniels]

I’m sorry…I didn’t realize the Church was a democracy for the people and by the people…Rome should make decisions based on truth and tradition handed down to us from Christ to The Apostles and the current Bishops…the Church should never make a decision based on popular appeal or opinions…if that was the case, then more than likely they would rule that contraception is ok…and I am sorry, but The Church has allowed a lot of changes to take place in order to please people and keep them in the Church…but that doesn’t mean those were the best decisions…and certainly not infallible decisions.

With all due respect, not every comment that disagrees with yours is a strawman argument. My question is valid because he said “if people think it needs to be changed” which back then people DID think we needed to switch away from Latin, yet many say that was a good thing.

.

 

[Melchior_1]

truth and tradition handed down to us from Christ to The Apostles and the current Bishops…

1. You must have typo’d there. Tradition. The tradition of music is one of lower-case, unless the proper Authorities wield their upper-case powers. If there is an ex-cathdra which happens to this, we will of course listen. And of the CODW tells us to change, we will. This has already been proven a couple of years ago.
2. The current Bishops, like the current one in my diocese who doesn’t have an issue with how we are doing things? Or the one that preceded him? Or the collective group who are fine with how the Companions of the Cross and the Friars of the Renewal do the Mass?

EDIT: A question I have, and this is not a “strawman” question but an honest one. Do you and others consider me to be a heretic for playing drums at Mass?

 

[CMatt25]

I’m sorry…I didn’t realize the Church was a democracy for the people and by the people…Rome should make decisions based on truth and tradition handed down to us from Christ to The Apostles and the current Bishops…the Church should never make a decision based on popular appeal or opinions…if that was the case, then more than likely they would rule that contraception is ok…and I am sorry, but The Church has allowed a lot of changes to take place in order to please people and keep them in the Church…but that doesn’t mean those were the best decisions…and certainly not infallible decisions.

But contraception has not been ruled ok. So how do you know Christ is not behind the current bishops in support of LT?

 

[michaeldaniels]

No…far from a heretic…I am sure you are worshiping God whole heartedly the best way you know how…but I do think playing drums during Mass is poor taste at best. Sorry…but that is my opinion…but then again, so is a girl that wears revealing clothes, or short mini-skirts…or someone wearing a rock band shirt…or altar servers with ridiculous piercings or who are properly dressed…I just basically do not like a lot of things that lay people do at Mass these days…doesn’t necessarily make me right or them wrong…I just personally feel they have no place at Mass…such as Orans and the gesture that looks like they are a referee signaling a touchdown at the end of the Our Father, etc…I could go on and on…Whatever happened to the sacredness…and the sanctity??? Do you all realize every time you go to Mass, you are in Heaven…and you are in the presence of God…literally, he is physically present…and if that is the case, why has the atmosphere of reverence one should project not even seem to be a priority to you all? It is just confusing to me

EDIT: A question I have, and this is not a “strawman” question but an honest one. Do you and others consider me to be a heretic for playing drums at Mass?

 

[stringbeanduck]

Do you and others consider me to be a heretic for playing drums at Mass?

That might be judgemental. Would you play drums during the Last Supper? The peers I speak with like the teen Mass because it isn’t boring. In other words they view regular english Masses as boring.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Yeah…and they put their own personal, selfish desires first by seeking entertainment instead of really what the purpose of The Mass is

That might be judgemental. Would you play drums during the Last Supper? The peers I speak with like the teen Mass because it isn’t boring. In other words they view regular english Masses as boring.

 

[Melchior_1]

Would you play drums during the Last Supper?

OF COURSE! No questions asked I would. Especially considering back then they, you know, used percussion and string instruments extensive. But even in a present day context I still would.
*
“Do you all realize every time you go to Mass, you are in Heaven…and you are in the presence of God…literally, he is physically present…”*

Yes. I wouldn’t be teaching RCIA for teens if I didn’t, now would I? By the way, we teach this at Life Teen.

"and if that is the case, why has the atmosphere of reverence one should project not even seem to be a priority to you all? "

You’re assuming that due to using drums and the like that there is no reverence. And I like how it becomes;

Modern music — > lack of clothes —> pierced whatever —> NO REVERENCE DUE TO MUSIC.

You aren’t at the Mass, so you don’t know. You wouldn’t know we preach modesty and reverence. And frankly, even if you did go you would go with a closed heart and closed mind so you’d keep the same attitude.

Speaking of hearts, until you know their heart of hearts you aren’t in a position to say that they are being selfish, are you? To make this a tad more personal, you’re actually calling me selfish and that I do it for the entertainment, without even knowing my actual name, my age, or the country I live in.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Lets be honest…do you believe that the Life Teen Mass, with all of its inventions, is just as reverant and sacred as a TLM High Mass with gregorian chant, Communion kneeling and on the tongue, etc.???

OF COURSE! No questions asked I would. Especially considering back then they, you know, used percussion and string instruments extensive. But even in a present day context I still would.
*
“Do you all realize every time you go to Mass, you are in Heaven…and you are in the presence of God…literally, he is physically present…”*

Yes. I wouldn’t be teaching RCIA for teens if I didn’t, now would I? By the way, we teach this at Life Teen.

"and if that is the case, why has the atmosphere of reverence one should project not even seem to be a priority to you all? "

You’re assuming that due to using drums and the like that there is no reverence. And I like how it becomes;

Modern music — > lack of clothes —> pierced whatever —> NO REVERENCE DUE TO MUSIC.

You aren’t at the Mass, so you don’t know. You wouldn’t know we preach modesty and reverence. And frankly, even if you did go you would go with a closed heart and closed mind so you’d keep the same attitude.

Speaking of hearts, until you know their heart of hearts you aren’t in a position to say that they are being selfish, are you? To make this a tad more personal, you’re actually calling me selfish and that I do it for the entertainment, without even knowing my actual name, my age, or the country I live in.

 

[Melchior_1]

Lets be honest…do you believe that the Life Teen Mass, with all of its inventions, is just as reverant and sacred as a TLM High Mass with gregorian chant, Communion kneeling and on the tongue, etc.???

I wouldn’t spend time posting here nor would I spend as much time as I do at my Church if I didn’t believe it was just as reverent. And this isn’t me being an Internet Keyboard Warrior, believe me I have other things I should be doing right now (like studying for my Exchange Server 2003 exam which I am writing tomorrow), I truly believe within my heart that one can be reverent and respect the Mass using contemporary instruments.

Of course, I have been exposed to both Sacred and Modern worship during Mass (and respect both) so perhaps there’s the rub. I have respect for both forms and do not seek to diminish or stamp them out.

But apparently you think I’m selfish and in it for the “entertainment”, not to mention being a horrible leader in the community (because I aid and abet children with these selfish behaviors), so I doubt you’ll believe what I have to say above.

 

[Matt_707]

"I don’t comprehend how going to mass can be “boring” for anyone if you really know what it is about. "

I understand what’s going on at mass–the parts, whateverything means, how it’s Heaven on Earth, a miracle, bread and wine becoming the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ and I get bored and distracted. "Hmmm, I wonder where we should eat after mass. What’s that person doing? Now don’t get me wrong, I like me a good tradional mass and I don’t really like it when the tamborines or other percussion instruments are brought it. I think they are kind of hokey. I’ve been to one contemporary mass where the music stunk up the joint. But I also enjoy a mass where the music is contemporary and very good. (in fact it’s where we are going this evening)

I think to say that teens don’t relate or “hook on” is a falicy.

“Religion is about getting people from This World to Heaven” ding ding ding!! We have a winner. And if they kids STOP going then they aren’t going to make it there. I believe that youth ministery is like a mission field. Do you know how the Catholic missionaries were able to convert people through the centuries?? They went to the natives where they were–they learned their language and didn’t try to make them European. We have to go to teens and let them know that it’s okay to be who they are and let them know it’s okay to be happy and joyous. That it’s okay to embrace their faith instead of mourning it.

“I think kids respond to such efforts the same way they do to their dads or uncles trying to be trendy; with pity and annoyance.”

Well, lets ask the experts–“Hey Emma–would you rather go to the mass at St. Gabes or a more traditional mass.”

“Gabes”

You are correct in that there is a line that you shouldn’t cross in youth ministery in trying to be trendy and “hip” when you aren’t. You have to be who you are. The kids can tell when you are being a fraud–being someone you aren’t. But you still have to reach out to them and connect and pull them in. If you can’t connect because you are too stuffy and unwilling to listen to them then you are not able to pull them in.

My friend,

 I'm not so sure I agree with all of your statements made there.  I am 18 years old.  I am active in a youth group of around 25 kids.  I have an awesome relationship with our Savior and I know a lot of youth that are.  It’s through the Eucharist!  The problem with the church is that we have lost sight of our most prized possession and now that we seem to be working it back in, marvelous things have been happening.  

 I am going to enter seminary next year as well as two and possibly three of my peers that live in the same city.  I am seeing an abundant amount of teens and young adults answering the call here in my city.  My youth group is very active with adoration and the sacraments.  I truly believe this is the reason for our group flourishing.  For any youth leaders or actually and member of a youth group for that matter… Please, incorporate the Blessed Sacrament into your group.  The youth group will grow through Jesus Himself.  I PROMISE you this will work.

God bless

 

[Melchior_1]

For any youth leaders or actually and member of a youth group for that matter… Please, incorporate the Blessed Sacrament into your group. The youth group will grow through Jesus Himself. I PROMISE you this will work. God bless

Amen and AMEN. I’ve personally witnessed (and was a part of) a large resurgence in the Faith in my home town when our parish started Perpetual Adoration. The Companions are big on that too. In both cases I have seen enormous dividends within the Church community.

 

[michaeldaniels]

No…I believe you…and I honestly feel you truly believe in what you are saying…I don’t understand how you can even come close to comparing the two…but I don’t have to…it is your opinion which you are entitled to and that is your personal relationship you have with God…I am in no way questioning your devoutness…I just think that the LT Mass and the Charismatic Masses are very susceptible to a variety of abuses…not because the Masses themselves are invalid, but because people seem to inject things into these Masses which should never be there in the first place.

I wouldn’t spend time posting here nor would I spend as much time as I do at my Church if I didn’t believe it was just as reverent. And this isn’t me being an Internet Keyboard Warrior, believe me I have other things I should be doing right now (like studying for my Exchange Server 2003 exam which I am writing tomorrow), I truly believe within my heart that one can be reverent and respect the Mass using contemporary instruments.

Of course, I have been exposed to both Sacred and Modern worship during Mass (and respect both) so perhaps there’s the rub. I have respect for both forms and do not seek to diminish or stamp them out.

But apparently you think I’m selfish and in it for the “entertainment”, not to mention being a horrible leader in the community (because I aid and abet children with these selfish behaviors), so I doubt you’ll believe what I have to say above.

 

[BillP]

Where on earth do they get the idea that Mass is supposed to be “fun”?

And what on earth do they mean by “like a worship service?”

The Celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is the most important service of worship this side of Heaven.

Maybe from the name? Seriously, if you’re not enjoying Mass, you’re doing it wrong.

 

[Melchior_1]

I just think that the LT Mass and the Charismatic Masses are very susceptible to a variety of abuses…not because the Masses themselves are invalid, but because people seem to inject things into these Masses which should never be there in the first place.

Sadly, this is becoming all too common in ALL Churches these days. You have extremists on all sides, which in turn makes those who are actually being reasonable look bad. There’s one Church in my city where they still do the Tridentine Rite. After I went to one of their Masses, I was approached by some of the parishioners. Apparently my collared black golf shirt (ie; standard black collared t-shirt) and black slacks were deemed “inappropriate for Mass”, due to the shirt sleeves. And through further conversations with them, apparently Vatican II was a illegitimate council due to the changes that were made to the vernacular. They made everyone else look HORRIBLE, as if you based everyone on that people would obviously not be happy with that Church and likely would have a negative opinion of the Parish and the Rite used. I then talked to more reasonable people, and it turns out they were the vocal (very vocal) minority.

Of course, I’ve also been to some Charismatic places where I’ve approached people after and said “uh guys, this isn’t appropriate”. These, of course, usually happen at Churches with “Liberal Theology”, which I crusade against regularly. The kids at my Church are exposed to “Liberal Theology” at their “Catholic” schools, which makes me very annoyed because then I get to correct all the stuff they learn in their “religion classes”. Some “gems”; the school said contraception is fine (which it isn’t), marriage isn’t just between one man and one woman (it is), and Jesus Christ ISN’T truly present through Transubstantiation (He is).

The good news is; we’re going to be holding a retreat at the school(s) which is exciting. Hopefully we don’t get blacklisted for being orthadox. I’ll keep you guys posted on that one!

This is why I find the Companions and the Friars of the Renewal interesting though. They find a way to mesh the Charismatic elements with solid orthodox teaching.

We disagree with one another when it comes to the music during Mass, but we respect one another’s opinion. I appreciate that you respect where I’m coming from, and I respect where you are as well.

 

[benedictgal]

I do they saw it as an issue, however I also see that they did not perform a sweeping outright ban on such Masses, otherwise such Masses would have changed at this point courtesy of our Arch-Bishop, who happens to be the Bishop of a high-profile diocese.

You’re assuming we don’t. My wife composes and teaches Sacred Music, and she isn’t the only one. We have one such gentlemen with us.

Having the Apostolic Constitution approved, to me, is a tacit approval on how they do the Mass. You would think before having such an approval they would take the time to say “you know fellows, that whole Charismatic business? Let’s dial that down some”.

EDIT: “When the entertainment factor is gone, then there is nothing left because they were not grounded into something firm and enduring in the first place.”

It appears as if my comments about teaching the youth to approach the Mass and the Eucharist/Sacraments with reverence has fallen on deaf ears. Because really, you can’t get much more firm than teaching them about the Body and Blood of Christ, in addition to the Mass and what the Mass is all about.

No, having an Apostolic Constitution approved merely means that the Holy See has given its recognitio for the group to exist and operate as an ecclesial movement within the Church. This does not exempt the movements from following the norms and rubrics for the Mass as laid out by the authoritative documents of the Holy See.

Again, as I read your posts, you fail to see the point at issue here. Often, we can be quite devoted to a particular movement and not want to see its flaws and limitations. That is what I have encountered with many of the proponents of LifeTeen. Having an Apostolic Constitution approved is one thing. However, that does not give a movement carte blanche to treat the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as though it were its own private and personal property.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Back at you

We disagree with one another when it comes to the music during Mass, but we respect one another’s opinion. I appreciate that you respect where I’m coming from, and I respect where you are as well.

 

[benedictgal]

OF COURSE! No questions asked I would. Especially considering back then they, you know, used percussion and string instruments extensive. But even in a present day context I still would.
*
“Do you all realize every time you go to Mass, you are in Heaven…and you are in the presence of God…literally, he is physically present…”*

Yes. I wouldn’t be teaching RCIA for teens if I didn’t, now would I? By the way, we teach this at Life Teen.

"and if that is the case, why has the atmosphere of reverence one should project not even seem to be a priority to you all? "

You’re assuming that due to using drums and the like that there is no reverence. And I like how it becomes;

Modern music — > lack of clothes —> pierced whatever —> NO REVERENCE DUE TO MUSIC.

You aren’t at the Mass, so you don’t know. You wouldn’t know we preach modesty and reverence. And frankly, even if you did go you would go with a closed heart and closed mind so you’d keep the same attitude.

Speaking of hearts, until you know their heart of hearts you aren’t in a position to say that they are being selfish, are you? To make this a tad more personal, you’re actually calling me selfish and that I do it for the entertainment, without even knowing my actual name, my age, or the country I live in.

However, I still do not think that you are getting the point of what many of us are saying. It’s not about acting with a closed heart. It is about respecting the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and using music that is fitting for such an august, divine and sublime Mystery.

What you also seem to forget is that the Church is not just about the warm bodies in the pews. At every Mass the entire Church, (Militant, Triumphant and Suffering) participates.

Often, as I have seen in these threads, when a person cannot find the authoritative document to support his position, he tends to resort to making it personal rather than being receptive to what the Church says.